The Thai women behind the first bar run entirely by a sex workers' collective

[Rumblecat]

All the power to her and her kind. I think good idea to legalize the industry and provide all sex workers with an ID card and have them take monthly health checks and pay taxes. But by making it a legal business they should be willing to accept their profession and not lie about it and have it as public information. Also anyone busted for selling sex should be heavily fined with jail time. They should also require family to signoff knowing what her profession is as wives and husbands should not be engaged in the industry unless the family is advised. Basically any lady who is willing to be a sex worker should as long as she understands the rules and does not harm others in the process.

Why should they have to do all these extra steps, like informing their family..? There's no legal requirement to inform your family about other avenues of employment. And why on earth should it be public information?

When you say "all power to her and her kind" what you're really talking about is trying to strip them of any power and force unnecessary legislation upon them. In fact the things you're talking about are the exact things that would push people away from a legalised industry and look to do it underground, out of sight- where you'd then have them heavily fined and jailed..!

Yeah. All power to them.

Because the law does not permit sex outside of marriage. It is a crime to screw someone else's wife. Believe it or not.

So if they want to screw around make it a legal profession and take the same steps others have to do in order to get a license. In the USA legal sex workers have to register and take health tests. It is also public information who is involved in the work, no hiding ! I think it is people like you who try to hide and do things in the dark who discredit the industry. Check out other countries with legal sex industries and you will find similar requirements. It is a true profession not a dirty secret act that you need to hide from. You are the one making it something dirty and wrong not me !!!

And in the USA do sex workers have to inform their families as well..? And require a family sign-off..? Or is this just your own special little invention. That's exactly the kind of over-legislating which pushes prostitution into the shadows. Not every worker wishes to tell their entire family- and neither should they- they definitely shouldn't be forced to. What possible benefit would that have? We're not talking about married people here- this is a blanket statement you've declared- that a family sign off would be required.

I have to admit that the fact that sex outside marriage is illegal in Thailand is news to me. Are you quite sure about that?

[Ace of Pop]

What are the Drawbacks.?.Who would ask that.

[thaiduncankk]

Her surname is Van Derburg, not a Thai name, so obviously Mr Van Derburg was one of the suckers. I wonder what nationality the other 3 were ?

I take it the 2 kids in private education are male, otherwise why waste the money if they are female ?

Just follow in mum's footsteps and go on the batter for a living. Good money if you can get it ?

[cyberfarang]

sorry to say this woman has made a huge mistake being the subject of this article. The story is in English and on a non Thailand specific website. She will be put on a list of places the USA wants shut down to stop sex trade and human trafficking.

women in the west with some power and influence see this kind of story and they flip out, as they are not to keen on women selling sex. they think all the girls in Thailand are chained to a bed and fed rats. And a "feel good" story like this is not going to change their minds.

The bar was created by empower charitable organisations. The Thai woman according to my understanding is only a front person, the manageress. When I visited the bar there were several middle aged Australian women enjoying drinks and chain smoking sitting outside the bar. The Thai lady told me they are the owners.

Do a search on Google to find out more.

[DrTuner]

When I visited the bar there were several middle aged Australian women enjoying drinks and chain smoking sitting outside the bar.

That's a novelty, a bar owned by farang women. Must be raking it in.

[dhream]

Seems a lot of commentary here is based on the precis, not the full article.

Any bar that abolishes the ladydrink and barfine model is getting my business, if and when I choose to partake. For that reason alone, they deserve the custom.

Also, lot of what they've said makes sense, and has the ring of truth, media bullshit here is usually easy to spot, in fact some of the statements made by prominent persons in the media here sound like they are lampooning themselves, so out of touch with reality are they.

Finally, it's astonishing that so many 'sexperts' commenting here seem to suggest they know more about the industry, and the country, and the women, than the women themselves.

Let's for a moment imagine these women commenting on our life, culture, etc, based on what they've heard at their bar and via rumour (we're all rich, we're all perverts, were all... whatever) it's rightly laughable! Here's a thought, what if (mis)information and hearing what you want to hear, works both ways? But whatever passes the time for you, I suppose.

[smccolley]

Isn't that just 'freelance' as was in the beer garden, soi 5.5 in Nana?

Senator, I do not recall!

[ttthailand]

All the power to her and her kind. I think good idea to legalize the industry and provide all sex workers with an ID card and have them take monthly health checks and pay taxes. But by making it a legal business they should be willing to accept their profession and not lie about it and have it as public information. Also anyone busted for selling sex should be heavily fined with jail time. They should also require family to signoff knowing what her profession is as wives and husbands should not be engaged in the industry unless the family is advised. Basically any lady who is willing to be a sex worker should as long as she understands the rules and does not harm others in the process.

Why should they have to do all these extra steps, like informing their family..? There's no legal requirement to inform your family about other avenues of employment. And why on earth should it be public information?

When you say "all power to her and her kind" what you're really talking about is trying to strip them of any power and force unnecessary legislation upon them. In fact the things you're talking about are the exact things that would push people away from a legalised industry and look to do it underground, out of sight- where you'd then have them heavily fined and jailed..!

Yeah. All power to them.

Because the law does not permit sex outside of marriage. It is a crime to screw someone else's wife. Believe it or not.

So if they want to screw around make it a legal profession and take the same steps others have to do in order to get a license. In the USA legal sex workers have to register and take health tests. It is also public information who is involved in the work, no hiding ! I think it is people like you who try to hide and do things in the dark who discredit the industry. Check out other countries with legal sex industries and you will find similar requirements. It is a true profession not a dirty secret act that you need to hide from. You are the one making it something dirty and wrong not me !!!

And in the USA do sex workers have to inform their families as well..? And require a family sign-off..? Or is this just your own special little invention. That's exactly the kind of over-legislating which pushes prostitution into the shadows. Not every worker wishes to tell their entire family- and neither should they- they definitely shouldn't be forced to. What possible benefit would that have? We're not talking about married people here- this is a blanket statement you've declared- that a family sign off would be required.

I have to admit that the fact that sex outside marriage is illegal in Thailand is news to me. Are you quite sure about that?

In Thailand polygamy is not lawful, refer to section 1452 of the Civil and Commercial Code.

The law states in part that a woman cannot file for divorce on the grounds of her husband’s adultery, but a man can file for divorce on the grounds of his wife’s adultery.

With this in mind it would not be within the law for a license to be given to a married Thai woman to legally commit polygamy without her husbands approval.

This is about doing what is legal under the codes of the land. Fair or not fair is not the question here....

It is not a criminal offense only civil.

There are also cases of people suing in civil court for damages on men who commit a sex act with the man's wife.

There are also laws that govern the legal age for a woman to be engaged in sex. The parents need to sign for her to marry and also to work in some industries.

Family face and respect is a huge matter in Thailand and the laws are setup to protect family. What really happens may be a different matter but what the laws state need to be followed when passing new laws.

[ttthailand]

Rumblecat, your argument about things like rules and being transparent only go to shame these girls. If a girl wants to be a dentist she has to get training and get licensed as does a girl in a massage shop. And all these licenses have to be available for display.

Why should a licensed sex worker be different ? They should have to take classes to understand the law and what is permitted and what is not. They should be examined by a doctor and be required to fill out an application and take a test.

And yes, family needs to be aware just like many things in Thailand that require a family member to sign off no matter what her age.

The only way to make it acceptable is to remove the dirty secret part that you keep suggesting. Or do you think they should be ashamed ???

And to be fair I am not just talking about ladies, men sex workers and 3rd gender should have same requirements.

[Rumblecat]

Rumblecat, your argument about things like rules and being transparent only go to shame these girls. If a girl wants to be a dentist she has to get training and get licensed as does a girl in a massage shop. And all these licenses have to be available for display.

Why should a licensed sex worker be different ? They should have to take classes to understand the law and what is permitted and what is not. They should be examined by a doctor and be required to fill out an application and take a test.

And yes, family needs to be aware just like many things in Thailand that require a family member to sign off no matter what her age.

The only way to make it acceptable is to remove the dirty secret part that you keep suggesting. Or do you think they should be ashamed ???

Eh..? I don't have a problem with them being registered. It's the family sign off I have an issue with. It's things like that which drive the industry back underground. Many sex workers don't want their families to know they work in the industry. Forcing them to do otherwise is counter-productive. As is legislation where you would actually imprison people for selling sex if caught without a license.

But fine, we can disagree on that- world would be a boring place if everyone saw things the same.

But- genuine question- what other jobs require a family member to sign off for an adult to work in though..?

And I'm still not sure why you said sex outside marriage was illegal in Thailand. I know you posted some stuff about polygamy which was kind of irrelevant - as we're not discussing married people cheating- so I'm also genuinely interested to know about that law because nobody else I know seems to have heard of it. But it's also quite possible most Thai folk I know are running around with the misconception that pre-marital sex is legal.

[ttthailand]

Rumblecat, your argument about things like rules and being transparent only go to shame these girls. If a girl wants to be a dentist she has to get training and get licensed as does a girl in a massage shop. And all these licenses have to be available for display.

Why should a licensed sex worker be different ? They should have to take classes to understand the law and what is permitted and what is not. They should be examined by a doctor and be required to fill out an application and take a test.

And yes, family needs to be aware just like many things in Thailand that require a family member to sign off no matter what her age.

The only way to make it acceptable is to remove the dirty secret part that you keep suggesting. Or do you think they should be ashamed ???

Eh..? I don't have a problem with them being registered. It's the family sign off I have an issue with. It's things like that which drive the industry back underground. Many sex workers don't want their families to know they work in the industry. Forcing them to do otherwise is counter-productive. As is legislation where you would actually imprison people for selling sex if caught without a license.

But fine, we can disagree on that- world would be a boring place if everyone saw things the same.

But- genuine question- what other jobs require a family member to sign off for an adult to work in though..?

And I'm still not sure why you said sex outside marriage was illegal in Thailand. I know you posted some stuff about polygamy which was kind of irrelevant - as we're not discussing married people cheating- so I'm also genuinely interested to know about that law because nobody else I know seems to have heard of it. But it's also quite possible most Thai folk I know are running around with the misconception that pre-marital sex is legal.

no law that I know of against pre-marital sex unless you are under 20. In that case you need to have a parent sign off for you. Only married people having sex outside of marriage is not lawful.

My last gf lost her ID card and her mother needed to sign off for her to get new and she was over 30. That is one case but there are so many other areas that require family to sign... Not my idea but never the less they are there.

[ttthailand]

Rumblecat, your argument about things like rules and being transparent only go to shame these girls. If a girl wants to be a dentist she has to get training and get licensed as does a girl in a massage shop. And all these licenses have to be available for display.

Why should a licensed sex worker be different ? They should have to take classes to understand the law and what is permitted and what is not. They should be examined by a doctor and be required to fill out an application and take a test.

And yes, family needs to be aware just like many things in Thailand that require a family member to sign off no matter what her age.

The only way to make it acceptable is to remove the dirty secret part that you keep suggesting. Or do you think they should be ashamed ???

Eh..? I don't have a problem with them being registered. It's the family sign off I have an issue with. It's things like that which drive the industry back underground. Many sex workers don't want their families to know they work in the industry. Forcing them to do otherwise is counter-productive. As is legislation where you would actually imprison people for selling sex if caught without a license.

But fine, we can disagree on that- world would be a boring place if everyone saw things the same.

But- genuine question- what other jobs require a family member to sign off for an adult to work in though..?

And I'm still not sure why you said sex outside marriage was illegal in Thailand. I know you posted some stuff about polygamy which was kind of irrelevant - as we're not discussing married people cheating- so I'm also genuinely interested to know about that law because nobody else I know seems to have heard of it. But it's also quite possible most Thai folk I know are running around with the misconception that pre-marital sex is legal.

no law that I know of against pre-marital sex unless you are under 20. In that case you need to have a parent sign off for you. Only married people having sex outside of marriage is not lawful.

My last gf lost her ID card and her mother needed to sign off for her to get new and she was over 30. That is one case but there are so many other areas that require family to sign... Not my idea but never the less they are there.

[roo860]

So, whats new.... as sure as there are wives in this world there will always be prostitutes. A man has to get sex somewhere..! And for girls with no education and no idea what to do in life, opening their legs to some stranger is the easy option. Next comes theft, cheating and robbery. Oh, a hookers life is not an easy one. (sung to the tune from Pirates of Penzance, a policemans life)

And as for Mai Jantas excuses... a slut is always a slut and Kleenex will always sell... wiping up the stains of sleeze.... Put three people through University.... I find that hard to swallow... But what would we guys do without them....????

I don't think she found it "hard to swallow"!!!

[LivinLOS]

And yes, family needs to be aware just like many things in Thailand that require a family member to sign off no matter what her age.

Could we have a few examples of these 'many things' ??

[Rumblecat]

Rumblecat, your argument about things like rules and being transparent only go to shame these girls. If a girl wants to be a dentist she has to get training and get licensed as does a girl in a massage shop. And all these licenses have to be available for display.

Why should a licensed sex worker be different ? They should have to take classes to understand the law and what is permitted and what is not. They should be examined by a doctor and be required to fill out an application and take a test.

And yes, family needs to be aware just like many things in Thailand that require a family member to sign off no matter what her age.

The only way to make it acceptable is to remove the dirty secret part that you keep suggesting. Or do you think they should be ashamed ???

Eh..? I don't have a problem with them being registered. It's the family sign off I have an issue with. It's things like that which drive the industry back underground. Many sex workers don't want their families to know they work in the industry. Forcing them to do otherwise is counter-productive. As is legislation where you would actually imprison people for selling sex if caught without a license.

But fine, we can disagree on that- world would be a boring place if everyone saw things the same.

But- genuine question- what other jobs require a family member to sign off for an adult to work in though..?

And I'm still not sure why you said sex outside marriage was illegal in Thailand. I know you posted some stuff about polygamy which was kind of irrelevant - as we're not discussing married people cheating- so I'm also genuinely interested to know about that law because nobody else I know seems to have heard of it. But it's also quite possible most Thai folk I know are running around with the misconception that pre-marital sex is legal.

no law that I know of against pre-marital sex unless you are under 20. In that case you need to have a parent sign off for you. Only married people having sex outside of marriage is not lawful.

My last gf lost her ID card and her mother needed to sign off for her to get new and she was over 30. That is one case but there are so many other areas that require family to sign... Not my idea but never the less they are there.

I didn't ask about what ID required confirming signature of a parent for identity (in that case a residency book would serve the same purpose and negate the need for a family signing anyway, so it's not a great example)- I asked what other jobs require a family member to sign off on.

You said that parental signature is needed "to work in some industries". That's not true. Just like your claim that "the law does not permit sex outside of marriage"- another invention of yours that isn't true either.

There's no employment situation in Thailand where a consenting adult needs permission of the family before they can take the job. So why do you want to single out this profession? Why do you want to make this the exception?

[LivinLOS]

My last gf lost her ID card and her mother needed to sign off for her to get new and she was over 30. That is one case but there are so many other areas that require family to sign... Not my idea but never the less they are there.

Suspect you miss understood what was happening as there is no need for an adult Thai to have a family member sign anything to get a new ID card.

Tabien baans and house registrations are a key way Thai bureaucracy works, yet dont need to even be family members.

I still maintain there is nothing that legally requires an adult to get family permission for. Credit checks or guarantors are not legal requirements.

[manarak]

THAIVISA

You printed this rubbish ?

This is a illegal freelancer talking shit

What a waste of space

huh? what is illegal, exactly?

[manarak]

no law that I know of against pre-marital sex unless you are under 20.

so you know of a law banning pre-marital sex unless under 20.

I would be very interested in knowing that law too, please post the references: name of the act of parliament, year it was passed, number of the article of law.

If it is in the civil code, the article number will suffice.

Thank you

[jacky54]

More rich and handsome do not waste their time and money banging skanky old tarts who have been at it for decades in CM.

[brewsterbudgen]

no law that I know of against pre-marital sex unless you are under 20.

so you know of a law banning pre-marital sex unless under 20.

I would be very interested in knowing that law too, please post the references: name of the act of parliament, year it was passed, number of the article of law.

If it is in the civil code, the article number will suffice.

Thank you

I suspect you'll be waiting a long time. First he might want to check the difference between adultery and polygamy, and then move on to his wild misunderstanding of Thai law and pre-marital sex....

[BKResort]

Unfortunately, she is totally right.

Even in the US work related with the sex industry is better paid than any other. Even just a nude dancer without sex.

In many countries is very common to see very educated and beautiful women having a "side job" escorting executives, and being accepted in the high class. Some, later getting married with well known millionaires. One I knew in person, when I was very young, was a nation's beauty queen at 18. She worked in the "field" for 15 years, becoming a real estate investor, and a millionaire, before getting married. She was a first lady in this country, now living in France, sometimes making news with her philanthropic work.

I am a strong believer that a smart woman with stunning beauty and intelligence, can be more successful in business and life than any smart men...

Women never lose her head because sex...all men do..

I did one time, no regrets....still remember her.

[LivinLOS]

Women never lose her head because sex...all men do..

Really ?? I have to introduce you to some I have met.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Seems a lot of commentary here is based on the precis, not the full article.

Any bar that abolishes the ladydrink and barfine model is getting my business, if and when I choose to partake. For that reason alone, they deserve the custom.

They do not advocate abolishing the barfine or lady drink model.

They do advocate abolishing ridiculous quotas on bargirls for havign to make XX barfines and XXX ladydrinks per month, or take a salary cut.

Also, lot of what they've said makes sense, and has the ring of truth, media bullshit here is usually easy to spot, in fact some of the statements made by prominent persons in the media here sound like they are lampooning themselves, so out of touch with reality are they.

Finally, it's astonishing that so many 'sexperts' commenting here seem to suggest they know more about the industry, and the country, and the women, than the women themselves.

Early on in the article is some general background on the Thai scene by the author which is a little shaky (only bar run by sex workers, etc.) However all the direct quotes by Can Do / Empower people are spot on, and very worthy of supporting.

Also I like the clear digs they take not just against government, but also other NGOs that thrive by painting sex workers as 'victims' and tryiong to 'rehabilitate' them.

Also this quote is pure gold:

"Sometimes you hear or you read about Thai students selling sex. We say, 'No, no it's just sex workers going to university, don't worry.' "

I am sure the 2 kids in expensive private schools are so proud of mummy ?

D#*ned right they should be proud, yes.

[thaiduncankk]

I am sure the 2 kids in expensive private schools are so proud of mummy ?

D#*ned right they should be proud, yes.

Proud that their mum made her money from selling her f*nny every night for 500 baht (in those days).

I guarantee they do not disclose it to anyone they know at school.

[JAFO]

I wonder where all the 'customers' who contributed to the 4 houses are ?

I am sure the 2 kids in expensive private schools are so proud of mummy ?

Cannot print my real thoughts, don't want to get barred.

My sentiments exactly. The kids and family must be so proud of Mom. Like you I could on and on but some how uneducated women with low self esteem seem to migrate to a profession that takes no real skill or thought. To me they are basically lazy and want the easy way. So she just closes her eyes, thinks of the 4 houses and the kids tuition as the justification and then gets violated by some sweaty drunk foreigner slob. What a career choice.

I also found her one comment quite hilarious, "More handsome and rich?". I am sorry but handsome rich guys do not go to hang in dump bars with ugly young uneducated hookers. She better get used to her lower class clientele.

[MaeJoMTB]

I also found her one comment quite hilarious, "More handsome and rich?". I am sorry but handsome rich guys do not go to hang in dump bars with ugly young uneducated hookers. She better get used to her lower class clientele.

http://www.vh1.com/news/86004/10-celebrities-caught-with-hookers/

Take a look at a photo of the hooker Hugh Grant was caught with.

Makes Ms. Empower look attractive.

Justine Bieber in a cheap expensive Rio brothel ........ ($1200 a girl)

Rich and handsome guys that use hookers ........ the list is endless

Did I mention the Australian cricket team in Spotlight (ChiangMai gogo) 5 years back?

(I was there, saw them with my own eyes)

Then the British footballers in Bangkok recorded calling the girls names.

(It was in all the papers)

[JAFO]

I also found her one comment quite hilarious, "More handsome and rich?". I am sorry but handsome rich guys do not go to hang in dump bars with ugly young uneducated hookers. She better get used to her lower class clientele.

http://www.vh1.com/news/86004/10-celebrities-caught-with-hookers/

Take a look at a photo of the hooker Hugh Grant was caught with.

Makes Ms. Empower look attractive.

Justine Bieber in a cheap expensive Rio brothel ........ ($1200 a girl)

Rich and handsome guys that use hookers ........ the list is endless

Did I mention the Australian cricket team in Spotlight (ChiangMai gogo) 5 years back?

(I was there, saw them with my own eyes)

Then the British footballers in Bangkok recorded calling the girls names.

(It was in all the papers)

Sorry man but not to judge, Hugh Grant, Justin Bieber are not handsome guys IMHO. Rich yes. Stupid Yes. But they are not hanging out in a sleeze bar in Thailand drinking Leo. at least not yet. I am however keenly aware that rich men solicit calls girls all the time. Happens everywhere in the world. My reference was to this lady and how she would like more Rich and Handsome guys in her brothel. Its just not going to happen.

[uptoyoumyfriend]

what i don't understand is that the can do(which is more like a can't do) has been there 10 years or so.what's the hype now?

why do they never mention where they are?

when i went there on chiang mai land there was nothing going on,the girls did not vanish one by one there weren't any.

its more of a rescue station for burned out hookers i guess.

actually it might be a milking station for ngo's.they don't make money there they only spend it-whose money?

[WinnieTheKhwai]

what i don't understand is that the can do(which is more like a can't do) has been there 10 years or so.what's the hype now?

There's no hype, there is a blogger/journalist somewhere wanting to pen down something and did an interview. That does not hype make, it's just an article, along with a hundred thousand other ones on the Internet that day.

why do they never mention where they are?

They have a website and Facebook page. It shows clearly where they are.

when i went there on chiang mai land there was nothing going on,the girls did not vanish one by one there weren't any.

its more of a rescue station for burned out hookers i guess.

Which would be quite worthy enough. But yes, it didn't really take off as an actual bar. The Empower offices are upstairs, which is why they're there I guess. But as a bar it would make more sense in a different location.

actually it might be a milking station for ngo's.they don't make money there they only spend it-whose money?

They got to make money somewhere. Just about any other NGO gets on a gravy train funded by governments, the UN or Christian organizations. Given their stance in the whole debate, it's a lot harder to get funding.

And it still serves as an open door and walk-in spot for any interested sex workers. Yeah, I wish it was a totally happening place, too. That only happens when they have an event or party.