Bread making fundamentals

[Kenny202]

Had quite a few goes at making bread with reasonable results but bread always tends to be a bit heavy. Most of the time that suits me, makes nice toast etc but every now and then I'd like to make a lighter, more crusty loaf or rolls.

I made some rolls yesterday... wanted a really light crispy airy baguette style roll for Vietnamese Banh mi.

The recipe I used was basically

2 1/2 cups bread flour

cup of water

pkt dried yeast (yeast was definitely active)

teaspoon sugar

I put warm water sugar, yeast and sugar in a cup first and left for 10 minutes then mixed into the dry mixture. Mix was workable but still reasonably sticky. Kneed well for about 10 minutes and left to rise covered in a bowl for an hour. Doubled in size easily.

Punched down bread then left for 10 minutes. Then shaped my rolls and left on tray for a further 20 minutes. Then I put in a very hot oven (450 / 230 degrees C) for about 20 minutes.

The result was nice but as I said rather heavy. I did notice the bread didn't rise much more when it went in the oven?

1) Am I doing something wrong? What are the fundamentals? For eg a lighter loaf wetter or dryer mixture?

2) After letting the dough rise and then punching down, I shaped the bread on a floured board which would have added more dry flour to the

outer crust. The crust was rather thick tough and chewy. I was after crispy and light

3) The inside of the rolls were a little underdone / heavy, although the outside was brown and crusty. It was almost like the outer crust set too fast

and then the inside of the bread couldn't expand, trapped in the hard crust. Was my oven too hot?

4) Am I doing something wrong re kneeding? Should I kneed again after punching down and the initial rise?

5) I've seen "bread improver" in Makro. Would this help?

I'm doing all this at home with my hands. Am I expecting too much? Any help appreciated

[Utley]

Its probably the flour you are using; try a batch with cake flour, or 1/2 bread flour and 1/2 cake flour.

[Kenny202]

What is "cake" flour? I've seen it in the shops. Is that what we call self raising flour ie has baking powder added

[KittenKong]

I find that Thai flours are very poor, even the ones sold as being bread flour. I buy imported organic flour from the UK in Tops.

A metric recipe that works perfectly for me with a small combo convection/microwave oven (on convection setting, of course) and an electric mixer:

500g strong bread flour

9g salt

15g yeast

15g sugar

330g water (room temp)

20g bottled "lime juice" (vitamin C/flour improver)

Put flour in a mixer bowl. Mix dry for 1 minute.

Dissolve the salt in half the water and all the lime juice, and put it into the same bowl. Mix for a minute.

Dissolve the yeast and sugar in the rest of the water. Leave for 5 minutes.

Add that liquid to the bowl and mix for at least 5 minutes on high speed.

Cover the bowl and leave to rise until doubled in size. I find that a couple of hours is good, and longer is better.

Knock back and place into silicone baking tin (or form into a ball and place on a silicone baking sheet) and put into a cool oven (30-40 degrees) for an hour, or until well risen again.

Lightly spray the loaf with some salty water (helps form a nice crust) and turn the heat up to 180 degrees and leave until cooked. The exact time will depend on your oven but mine takes around 45 minutes.

The above works well with white or wholemeal flour or a 50/50 mix.

[cooked]

Yes I also have come to the conclusion that flour sold here is not up to scratch. I tried playing with sugar and yeast ratios but not much luck. You can get King Arthur flour here I just recently discovered so I am going on to that instead of just buying the cheapest. http://www.kingarthurflour.com/flours/

I have improved results by mixing in oat meal and whole meal flour.

[Kenny202]

Any ideas where to buy a strong HD mixer? Like a Kitchen Aid but a 10th of the price :-)

[fredge45]

Use your hands to knead the dough.

Knees make poor substitutes for the process!

[JoePai]

Any ideas where to buy a strong HD mixer? Like a Kitchen Aid but a 10th of the price :-)

Bought mine from a concession outside a Makro store. Made in China but very strong, about 13,000 Baht.

[streetlite]

Yes I also have come to the conclusion that flour sold here is not up to scratch. I tried playing with sugar and yeast ratios but not much luck. You can get King Arthur flour here I just recently discovered so I am going on to that instead of just buying the cheapest. http://www.kingarthurflour.com/flours/

I have improved results by mixing in oat meal and whole meal flour.

Where?

[cooked]

Yes I also have come to the conclusion that flour sold here is not up to scratch. I tried playing with sugar and yeast ratios but not much luck. You can get King Arthur flour here I just recently discovered so I am going on to that instead of just buying the cheapest. http://www.kingarthurflour.com/flours/

I have improved results by mixing in oat meal and whole meal flour.

Where?

Makro

[mrjohn]

From your description it looks to me as if you didn’t give enough time for the 2^nd rise which is why your bread was heavy. The 2^nd rise is always slower than the 1^st one.

Also, “punching down” and “knocking back” are unfortunate misnomers. It’s much better to turn the dough out and then fold one side over the other. This distributes the gas much more evenly.

Incidentally, “kneed” is spelt knead will which will help with any googling you may do.

On no account use cake flour! At the risk of overstating the blindingly obvious, cake flour is used for cakes and bread flour for bread. The difference is the gluten or wheat protein content. Bread flour (usually referred to as strong flour in the UK) has a high gluten content this is essential for good structure.

The best website I’ve ever come across for baking advice is this one:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/

And the best kneading method is this one::

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/video/2010/jul/20/how-to-cook-bread

In order to achieve the sort of crusty light, airy bread you’re looking for you need a fairly moist dough and long slow fermentation. Wet dough is difficult to handle unless you’re an experienced baker, so my advice is start with some fairly simple basic bread recipes.

Flour quality is not as important as some people seem to think, anyway, this is Thailand and you have to make do with whatever is available. I make excellent bread from White Swan bread flour which is available everywhere. I add a little rye flour (about 10%) which improves the flavour. You can’t be too choosy about your ingredients here, it’s what you do with them that counts.

Bread is made from flour, yeast, salt and water. Nothing else is needed.

[Kenny202]

Any ideas where to buy a strong HD mixer? Like a Kitchen Aid but a 10th of the price :-)

Bought mine from a concession outside a Makro store. Made in China but very strong, about 13,000 Baht.

would that be Champ brand? Saw one yesterday outside Makro like u describe

[KittenKong]

Any ideas where to buy a strong HD mixer? Like a Kitchen Aid but a 10th of the price :-)

I use a Philips domestic mixer that cost about 1000B in Tesco. Works fine.

[jaiyenyen]

Makro also sell a Kenwood Chef clone in their stores. It costs around 5000 baht.

[Kenny202]

Having another go now. Using a small 50L table oven. Has a top and bottom element (can only have both on) and fan forced. The bread will be on a tray so protected from direct heat from below but element above straight onto the top of the bread. Last time I put the bread lower in the oven, about 10" from the top element. Browned pretty fast but didn't burn. Would it be better if I put a tray under the top element so the bread isn't getting that direct element?

[MaeJoMTB]

No need to knead ......... use a wet dough.

No need to punch down .......... use a wet dough and first rise.

Making bread is easy, use a wet dough, forget all the 'old wives tales'.

[Kenny202]

No need to knead ......... use a wet dough.

No need to punch down .......... use a wet dough and first rise.

Making bread is easy, use a wet dough, forget all the 'old wives tales'.

Well Frk me Joe :-) Never took you for a chef big feller! Trying to get a really light crispy roll. First rise the way to go for that u reckon?

[MaeJoMTB]

A light crispy roll isn't real bread ....... that's chemical bread.

I make my own bread because the shops only sell chemical bread.

And it's very easy.

Wet dough!

400ml flour, 10ml yeast, 2 teaspoones of sugar (for yeast to eat), pinch of salt, enough water for wet dough (I usually add 100ml rye or wholewheatflour).

Mix it with wet hands for a couple of minutes, shape on grease-proof paper, cover to rise, slide paper and dough into tray, into oven and bake.

5 minutes to mix, 1 hour to rise, 40 minutes to bake (small loaf).

Edited December 24, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[Kenny202]

A light crispy roll isn't real bread ....... that's chemical bread.

I make my own bread because the shops only sell chemical bread.

And it's very easy.

Wet dough!

400ml flour, 10ml yeast, 2 teaspoones of sugar (for yeast to eat), pinch of salt, enough water for wet dough (I usually add 100ml rye or wholewheatflour).

Mix it with wet hands for a couple of minutes, shape on grease-proof paper, cover to rise, slide paper and dough into tray, into oven and bake.

5 minutes to mix, 1 hour to rise, 40 minutes to bake (small loaf).

reason want light and crispy is its for Vietnamese banh mi. French baguette light and crispy not Thai bread (like cake). I know what you mean. I normally like a heavier home made bread for toast etc. I think I ballsed it up last time shaping the rolls on a floured board, made the crust too thick which in turn trapped the bread and didn't let it rise. This time I used a light coating of oil on my hands to shape rolls. Worked a treat

[KittenKong]

You need steam in the oven to achieve the crispy French baguette crust. Salt helps too, so in a domestic oven spray the bread with salty water as I mentioned. In a larger oven you can just throw some water in immediately before closing the door, which is what French bakers do (when they dont use commercial ovens that spray the water automatically).

[Lampang2]

Any experience of this flour?

Makro.

[MaeJoMTB]

Way too expensive.

Bread flour from YOK = 34bht/Kg.

Cake flour from YOK = 24bht/Kg.

Rye and Wholewheat flour from YOK = 38bht/Kg.

Why pay more?

[Lampang2]

Way too expensive.

Bread flour from YOK = 34bht/Kg.

Cake flour from YOK = 24bht/Kg.

Rye and Wholewheat flour from YOK = 38bht/Kg.

Why pay more?

YOK = brand or store?

If brand, what store?

[MaeJoMTB]

YOK is a bakery supply store, two branches in Chiang Mai, online, and other towns.

http://www.yokinter.com/

[Kenny202]

Way too expensive.

Bread flour from YOK = 34bht/Kg.

Cake flour from YOK = 24bht/Kg.

Rye and Wholewheat flour from YOK = 38bht/Kg.

Why pay more?

what's YOK? Have in Khon Kaen?

[Kenny202]

Bread flour also 34 baht a kilo in Makro. Not bad results either

[AyG]

Any experience of this flour?

Makro.

They're both "doppio zero" flour - very finely ground, Italian-style. They are also "grano tenero" meaning they're made from soft wheat. Not really suitable for bread making at all. Had they been labelled "grano duro" (hard wheat) then they are used for some types of southern Italian bread, but really are best for pasta.

[KittenKong]

Way too expensive.

Bread flour from YOK = 34bht/Kg.

Cake flour from YOK = 24bht/Kg.

Rye and Wholewheat flour from YOK = 38bht/Kg.

Why pay more?

Because cheap Thai flour is quite nasty.

The imported organic UK flour at Tops is much tastier (and hopefully better for you).

[Kenny202]

No need to knead ......... use a wet dough.

No need to punch down .......... use a wet dough and first rise.

Making bread is easy, use a wet dough, forget all the 'old wives tales'.

How do you keep everything including your hands clean when kneading Joe? With the first mix / knead.....I think before I was trying to get the dough to pull away from the sides of the bowl, where it can be worked by hand etc without being sticky. I assume a wet dough you mean sticker and wetter than that?

BY the way. What temperature you use? Most on the internet say around 180 degrees

Edited December 30, 2015 by Kenny202

[MaeJoMTB]

wet hands and a floured board.

bowl of water beside you to keep dipping your hands in.

Just mix thoroughly.

I don't bother kneading ........ old wife's tale.

I don't bother knocking back ...... old wife's tale.

room temperature, whatever it is.