Koh Tao: Suspects found guilty of murdering British backpackers

[boomerangutang]

I just want to point out that they were last seen leaving the bar:

CCTV footage indicates that Miller and Witheridge left AC Bar, where they were drinking prior to their deaths, by the back door, which led directly to Sai Ree Beach. The path between AC Bars back door and the crime scene also goes past the log where the two defendants were allegedly drinking beer and playing guitar.

The whole article goes into detail about what was used to reach the verdict.

I think it's a pie in the sky video. I submit it doesn't exist and is just hearsay from RTP and Mon. If it exists, let's see it.

Why didn't Scotland Yard say anything? Then why did they have to come? So you guys also don't trust them?

Scotland Yard went to observe the investigation.

They did not investigate anything.

They only observed.

Under UK law they are not allowed to comment on this case as it involves a death penalty.

The UK police have no jurisdiction in Thailand, and what ever folk think or believe they would never be part of another sovereign state's investigation where there is the possibility of a death sentence

Correct about what Scotland Yard did/didn't do as regards investigating.

Pretty much the same as Thai police did I'd say.

Did they even 'observe'? A Burmese lawyer who was present on the island at that time claimed Brit experts came in and left by helicopter, staying no more than 2 hours each of 2 days. Those 2 hours could have included lunch and maybe foot massages. There is that one pic which was released. It shows a beach area with the Brits standing with their RTP minders, and it doesn't even look like the same beach (there's more tree cover and the beach is narrower). If observers-only are in a foreign country where they don't know the language and little about the customs, they're naturally going to be briefed by an RTP insider - whomever is high rank and speaks passable English (a rare group). Brit experts are going to listen with stern faces, maybe ask a few benign questions, and head back quickly back to their comfy resort in time to get freshened up for the night life.

By the way, the same Burmese lawyer who was representing his country, sought several times to meet with RTP officials. For every meeting they scheduled, no RTP showed. Sounds similar to RTP not showing up to meet with HRC (3 times), and RTP not being able to photocopy court documents. Similarly, RTP couldn't keep photos relating to the crime because they didn't know how. Likewise, RTP couldn't/wouldn't provide the most basic DNA paperwork to Ms. Taupin who came over expressly to testify in court - thereby precluding her from addressing the court. It wouldn't be a tactic by RTP to try and stymie the pursuit of justice would it? Perish the thought.

[JLCrab]

< snip >

There's none so blind that will not see, they've had their say for long enough, nothing's going to change, it's just a wind up.

True -- just a matter whether the 'blind' is the 92% or the 8%.

[catsanddogs]

Miller’s Cell Phone. It was discovered at lodgings of Zaw Lin, according to police. The device, a black iPhone 4, was apparently smashed and discarded as it did not work inside Thailand.

http://time.com/3487462/thailand-koh-tao-murders-hannah-witheridge-david-miller-zaw-lin-win-zaw-htun/

Which phone did David Miller phone his father in England from then a couple of hours before he was murdered if it wasn't this one that did not work inside Thailand? Mr Miller would be able to find that out from phone records, should he wish to. Surely the defence looked into this?

[NCFC]

Maybe this has no significance, but Nomsod's lawyer is a man who has been a close friend of NS's mother since they were youngsters. I'm not saying NS's lawyer got a heap of money for doing his job, but it wouldn't surprise me if his cumulative fees were many times more than a lawyer's regular rate for such services. Lawyers have been known to also be useful as conduits for money transfers. I'm not saying that could have happened among the Tuvichien family members, God forbid. Plus, the PM and top brass would known about any monkey business and would surely report it to proper authorities, ...wouldn't they?

You are right. It is of no significance.

It may be true it may be untrue, but unless you have any evidence it is ridiculous to post this sort of stuff.

What will happen is that in a few pages time, someone will post that they read somewhere that Nomsod's lawyer was a conduit for money transfers. And then this unsubstantiated rumour will gain a life of its own.

But that is your intention, of course.

[DiscoDan]

Miller’s Cell Phone. It was discovered at lodgings of Zaw Lin, according to police. The device, a black iPhone 4, was apparently smashed and discarded as it did not work inside Thailand.

http://time.com/3487462/thailand-koh-tao-murders-hannah-witheridge-david-miller-zaw-lin-win-zaw-htun/

Which phone did David Miller phone his father in England from then a couple of hours before he was murdered if it wasn't this one that did not work inside Thailand? Mr Miller would be able to find that out from phone records, should he wish to. Surely the defence looked into this?

He had 2 phones 1 locked Iphone and 1 cheap thai phone, cheap phone used for mobile calls, I phone would be for using with wifi skype FB etc.

[boomerangutang]

Maybe this has no significance, but Nomsod's lawyer is a man who has been a close friend of NS's mother since they were youngsters. I'm not saying NS's lawyer got a heap of money for doing his job, but it wouldn't surprise me if his cumulative fees were many times more than a lawyer's regular rate for such services. Lawyers have been known to also be useful as conduits for money transfers. I'm not saying that could have happened among the Tuvichien family members, God forbid. Plus, the PM and top brass would known about any monkey business and would surely report it to proper authorities, ...wouldn't they?

You are right. It is of no significance.

It may be true it may be untrue, but unless you have any evidence it is ridiculous to post this sort of stuff.

What will happen is that in a few pages time, someone will post that they read somewhere that Nomsod's lawyer was a conduit for money transfers. And then this unsubstantiated rumour will gain a life of its own.

But that is your intention, of course.

My intention is to shake the tree and see what falls out.

It's probably a naive wish of mine: that there is at least one person in an official capacity who is seeking the truth in this case.

When something extraordinary happens, like a vicious double murder, it's human nature for concerned observers to speculate what/who caused it. The alternative is to say something like, "well it's unfortunate, but God works in strange ways." or Thai style: "it was probably their karma to die that night." The majority can roll with it, and go on to other things. Yet there are some annoying nigglers like me who keep whittling away at the cast iron monument of lies put forth by Thai authorities.

If there are one or people who have the authority/audacity/courage/connections to probe some of these issues (whether there were giant under-the-table payments made for favors, for example) then I wish them good tidings. Yet, it's incumbent that the investigators do their jobs objectively. For that reason, a real investigator would have to be a farang, because Thai people can't help but be subjective in all they do. Sorry for the sweeping statement, but can anyone (who is familiar with Thailand) picture a Thai expert doing a completely objective investigation of a crime which implicates VIP's and RTP officers? A Thai couldn't get to square 1 without knowing the social status of every person of interest. Then, and only then, could the Thai person proceed.

[cadmus]

Miller’s Cell Phone. It was discovered at lodgings of Zaw Lin, according to police. The device, a black iPhone 4, was apparently smashed and discarded as it did not work inside Thailand.

http://time.com/3487462/thailand-koh-tao-murders-hannah-witheridge-david-miller-zaw-lin-win-zaw-htun/

Which phone did David Miller phone his father in England from then a couple of hours before he was murdered if it wasn't this one that did not work inside Thailand? Mr Miller would be able to find that out from phone records, should he wish to. Surely the defence looked into this?

He had 2 phones 1 locked Iphone and 1 cheap thai phone, cheap phone used for mobile calls, I phone would be for using with wifi skype FB etc.

Thats a possiblity and I've seen that mentioned before but I've never seen it in any of the reports about a second phone, have you?

[NCFC]

Maybe this has no significance, but Nomsod's lawyer is a man who has been a close friend of NS's mother since they were youngsters. I'm not saying NS's lawyer got a heap of money for doing his job, but it wouldn't surprise me if his cumulative fees were many times more than a lawyer's regular rate for such services. Lawyers have been known to also be useful as conduits for money transfers. I'm not saying that could have happened among the Tuvichien family members, God forbid. Plus, the PM and top brass would known about any monkey business and would surely report it to proper authorities, ...wouldn't they?

You are right. It is of no significance.

It may be true it may be untrue, but unless you have any evidence it is ridiculous to post this sort of stuff.

What will happen is that in a few pages time, someone will post that they read somewhere that Nomsod's lawyer was a conduit for money transfers. And then this unsubstantiated rumour will gain a life of its own.

But that is your intention, of course.

My intention is to shake the tree and see what falls out.

It's probably a naive wish of mine: that there is at least one person in an official capacity who is seeking the truth in this case.

When something extraordinary happens, like a vicious double murder, it's human nature for concerned observers to speculate what/who caused it. The alternative is to say something like, "well it's unfortunate, but God works in strange ways." or Thai style: "it was probably their karma to die that night." The majority can roll with it, and go on to other things. Yet there are some annoying nigglers like me who keep whittling away at the cast iron monument of lies put forth by Thai authorities.

If there are one or people who have the authority/audacity/courage/connections to probe some of these issues (whether there were giant under-the-table payments made for favors, for example) then I wish them good tidings. Yet, it's incumbent that the investigators do their jobs objectively. For that reason, a real investigator would have to be a farang, because Thai people can't help but be subjective in all they do. Sorry for the sweeping statement, but can anyone (who is familiar with Thailand) picture a Thai expert doing a completely objective investigation of a crime which implicates VIP's and RTP officers? A Thai couldn't get to square 1 without knowing the social status of every person of interest. Then, and only then, could the Thai person proceed.

Even though I disagree with your pov, I believe you are sincere but the people you are wanting to reach are not to be found on this forum.

[boomerangutang]

AleG often wonders why the defense didn't follow through with their requests to have DNA re-tested, despite repeated postponements and obfuscations by the prosecution and RTP - and the not-so-small factor that the judge(s) put tight restrictions of what could be re-tested. As I've posted prior, the defense finally determined that any DNA samples provided to them would have to be handled by RTP. It doesn't take a Sherlock Holmes to ascertain that DNA samples kept for over a year and handled/labeled by RTP operatives with their vested interests, would be suspect at best.

An American legal expert, Heidi Anna was present at the trial. Below is her assessment of the DNA imbroglio:

“Below is my own personal recollection of events, as recalled from all court sessions, to the best of my recollection. I hereby make no claims that it is 100% accurate:

The defense team requested that the DNA be retested independently and the court finally, after much time and the trial was already well underway, agreed. The police first stated that the DNA sample was “all used up”, which is-in actuality-scientifically impossible!

Then the police later (one or two days time) stated, “no, it was not all used up. we have some of the solution left.” The defense team was granted permission in court to independently retest the sample and so technicians from Dr. Porntip’s lab took cheek swabs from both accused boys, in court under close observation, during the court session during which Dr. Porntip testified.

BUT, what actually remained of the police’s alleged DNA “evidence” to be retested was, in fact, merely the midway solution required in the actual DNA testing process itself. This midpoint solution will give an accurate profile, however, it CANNOT determine the actual ORIGINAL SOURCE of the DNA! Therefore, it will NOT show if original alleged DNA from the female decedent at the crime scene came from “semen” as the Royal Thai Police claim, or if it in fact came from oral mucosa, skin, hair, blood, saliva, cigarette butts, etc.

Also, the court demanded that the DNA evidence from Dr. Porntip’s lab be returned to the COURT itself and NOT to the defense team!!! Thus, the results and factual information would be completely out of the defense team’s hands and thereby highly susceptible to contamination / falsification. For those two reasons, the defense team then; very wisely, declined retesting.

Independent verification (and independent receipt) is another “inalienable human right”, as well as a legal right, agreed upon per international standards, so, once again; the accused boys rights were severely violated.

As a licensed and board certified medical professional, very familiar with and highly experienced with legalities as well as the strict scientifically necessary procedures which MUST be adhered to during the collection of (and rigid documentation of) forensic evidence acquired from rape victims in the Emergency Room intended to be used in a legal court of law in the United States of America, I’m shocked and appalled by the disgracefully unprofessional and non-scientifically qualifying (accurate) collection and so called documentation methods utilized by members of the Royal Thai Police whilst on the crime scene, as well as every action and process of documentation of the alleged DNA evidence utilized and displayed by the Royal Thai police de facto crime scene location. It is my educated and highly experienced professional, and personal, opinion that no one can even be at all certain-in any way-that there ever actually was semen present at the crime scene.

[cadmus]

I have a question. I received an email warning me to avoid a facebook page named blind justice koh tao...that it was infected with viruses...then a member posted that page here in this thread today. I informed people on the thread regarding this. The site is still posted in this thread. post #3505. I also understood that members were not permitted to post any facebook sites at all on TV. Are we allowed to post them or not? Thank you for any clarification.

facebook pages are not viruses, there is a remote possibility that someone may link to an outside page or source that could contain a virus but your anti virus software will generally let you know about unsafe content before you open it or play it, facebook also screens files and limits the type of content that can be linked or uploaded, so I would say it is extremely doubtfull if not impossible to spread a virus through facebook

My wife and teenage kids are on facebook all the time and to the best of my knowledge its virus free, but like you said there could be the odd rogue outside link put up by a business page to take you somewhere you probably wanna keep well clear of.

The same cannot be said for mom and pop small websites whose owners fail to look after the security. In keeping on topic take a look at the AC bar/resort KT website http://www.acresortkohtao.com/ looks innocent enough right, but click on the 'divers' tab in the top menu and it then takes you to http://www.phoenix-divers.com/ that has either been hacked or is being deliberetly used as a spam farm, I suggest you do not click any of the links on it, at least I did'nt not sure how powerful my anti virus is.

[jimmybkk]

Follow the money.

Who benefitted?

Panya is transferred.

Right in the middle of the biggest high profile murder case Thailand has ever seen.

Along with a bunch of scumbags moved away from the trough.

Who personally took over the case?

“The transfer orders had yet to be promulgated”

Promulgated.

You know what that means? Not yet officially signed off on.

That’s right. Not previously scheduled for transfer.

http://www.phuketgazette.net/phuket-news/Phuket-police-chief-says-regrets-names-replacement/36049#ad-image-0

“The transfer orders had yet to be promulgated”

Well well, how convenient that you only used half the quote, the full quote is:

"Gen Krajang explained to the Gazette today that the transfer orders had yet to be promulgated, though they were expected to be upheld as the postings had been submitted by the Royal Thai Police for royal approval."

By the way, promulgate does not mean "Not yet officially signed off on", it means not yet publicly announced, just because something is not yet announced doesn't mean it hasn't been decided upon.

Heavens to murgatroyd...!!! I've seen it all now... I distinctly remember about a year ago, anytime anyone dared suggest that there was anything fishy about the timing of Panya's removal from the investigation, you and your pals (JD & JTJ back then) would take to the stage to declare as fact that Panya's promotion had been announced and published in the press before the murders took place. JD even went so far as making up a couple of phony sources where he claimed the announcement could be found. And now here you are declaring with the same authoritative tone that what you declared back then was not true.

It's just so hard to know what to believe when you make these assertions these days...

[boomerangutang]

Miller’s Cell Phone. It was discovered at lodgings of Zaw Lin, according to police. The device, a black iPhone 4, was apparently smashed and discarded as it did not work inside Thailand.

http://time.com/3487462/thailand-koh-tao-murders-hannah-witheridge-david-miller-zaw-lin-win-zaw-htun/

Which phone did David Miller phone his father in England from then a couple of hours before he was murdered if it wasn't this one that did not work inside Thailand? Mr Miller would be able to find that out from phone records, should he wish to. Surely the defence looked into this?

He had 2 phones 1 locked Iphone and 1 cheap thai phone, cheap phone used for mobile calls, I phone would be for using with wifi skype FB etc.

Thats a possiblity and I've seen that mentioned before but I've never seen it in any of the reports about a second phone, have you?

If you're asking me, then yes. I recall when the investigation first started, there was mention of a phone found at the crime scene. That couldn't have been the phone found at the scapegoats' lodging because Wei already admitted to finding that (2nd?) one.

Probably a more important question is: Did Mon alter the crime scene or possibly put anything in his pocket. It's already known that Mon was the first person told of the crime. That was many minutes (or 1 or 2 hours) before police arrived. To not have gone to look (perhaps close up) at the crime scene would have been completely uncharacteristic of any human.

The crime wrapped up by 5 or 5:30, whereas the crime scene was not cordoned off before close to noon. Pure speculation on my part, but what sorts of things would a man want to hide or dispose of if he was meddling at a crime scene? Here are some thoughts: clothing, mobile phone which may have belonged to one of the perps, a weaponized ring which may have been dropped on the sand, anything else which might implicate people you don't want implicated. All the things I mentioned could be put in a pocket or (re; clothing) under a shirt. The hoe couldn't be disposed of easily, and that's probably why it was there.

And what of the broken bottle which police were sure was one of the weapons? No bottle or broken glass found. Yet, the scapegoats admitted to using it in their tortured condition at the badly named 'safe-house.'

[stephenterry]

Boring and rabbiting. And pure speculation. Keep on track, boom.

[glenmohr]

Maybe this has no significance, but Nomsod's lawyer is a man who has been a close friend of NS's mother since they were youngsters. I'm not saying NS's lawyer got a heap of money for doing his job, but it wouldn't surprise me if his cumulative fees were many times more than a lawyer's regular rate for such services. Lawyers have been known to also be useful as conduits for money transfers. I'm not saying that could have happened among the Tuvichien family members, God forbid. Plus, the PM and top brass would known about any monkey business and would surely report it to proper authorities, ...wouldn't they?

You are right. It is of no significance.

It may be true it may be untrue, but unless you have any evidence it is ridiculous to post this sort of stuff.

What will happen is that in a few pages time, someone will post that they read somewhere that Nomsod's lawyer was a conduit for money transfers. And then this unsubstantiated rumour will gain a life of its own.

But that is your intention, of course.

My intention is to shake the tree and see what falls out.

It's probably a naive wish of mine: that there is at least one person in an official capacity who is seeking the truth in this case.

When something extraordinary happens, like a vicious double murder, it's human nature for concerned observers to speculate what/who caused it. The alternative is to say something like, "well it's unfortunate, but God works in strange ways." or Thai style: "it was probably their karma to die that night." The majority can roll with it, and go on to other things. Yet there are some annoying nigglers like me who keep whittling away at the cast iron monument of lies put forth by Thai authorities.

If there are one or people who have the authority/audacity/courage/connections to probe some of these issues (whether there were giant under-the-table payments made for favors, for example) then I wish them good tidings. Yet, it's incumbent that the investigators do their jobs objectively. For that reason, a real investigator would have to be a farang, because Thai people can't help but be subjective in all they do. Sorry for the sweeping statement, but can anyone (who is familiar with Thailand) picture a Thai expert doing a completely objective investigation of a crime which implicates VIP's and RTP officers? A Thai couldn't get to square 1 without knowing the social status of every person of interest. Then, and only then, could the Thai person proceed.

Actually I have observed for several decades Boomer that it is seldom if ever that you see a Thai high up in the UN,or in the International Court and cannot recall a Thai referee at the Olympics or in any World Cup. There may be exceptions which I am unaware of. But your comments carry the truth of the matter, it is impossible for Thai to be neutral. Many years ago I tried to help some non Caucasians join our police force. I was kind of taken aside and told that their prospects were not brilliant as it been found that non Caucasians struggled with being objective, it was not a blanket ban but a strong preference.

[cadmus]

He had 2 phones 1 locked Iphone and 1 cheap thai phone, cheap phone used for mobile calls, I phone would be for using with wifi skype FB etc.

Thats a possiblity and I've seen that mentioned before but I've never seen it in any of the reports about a second phone, have you?

If you're asking me, then yes. I recall when the investigation first started, there was mention of a phone found at the crime scene. That couldn't have been the phone found at the scapegoats' lodging because Wei already admitted to finding that (2nd?) one.

Probably a more important question is: Did Mon alter the crime scene or possibly put anything in his pocket. It's already known that Mon was the first person told of the crime. That was many minutes (or 1 or 2 hours) before police arrived. To not have gone to look (perhaps close up) at the crime scene would have been completely uncharacteristic of any human.

The crime wrapped up by 5 or 5:30, whereas the crime scene was not cordoned off before close to noon. Pure speculation on my part, but what sorts of things would a man want to hide or dispose of if he was meddling at a crime scene? Here are some thoughts: clothing, mobile phone which may have belonged to one of the perps, a weaponized ring which may have been dropped on the sand, anything else which might implicate people you don't want implicated. All the things I mentioned could be put in a pocket or (re; clothing) under a shirt. The hoe couldn't be disposed of easily, and that's probably why it was there.

And what of the broken bottle which police were sure was one of the weapons? No bottle or broken glass found. Yet, the scapegoats admitted to using it in their tortured condition at the badly named 'safe-house.'

Yes I remember a report from court about one of the police officers finding a phone at the scene but when asked who it belonged to he did not confirm, this is in refernce to a second phone not the smashed one found at the suspects room or outside the rooms

[spidermike007]

I have a question. I received an email warning me to avoid a facebook page named blind justice koh tao...that it was infected with viruses...then a member posted that page here in this thread today. I informed people on the thread regarding this. The site is still posted in this thread. post #3505. I also understood that members were not permitted to post any facebook sites at all on TV. Are we allowed to post them or not? Thank you for any clarification.

facebook pages are not viruses, there is a remote possibility that someone may link to an outside page or source that could contain a virus but your anti virus software will generally let you know about unsafe content before you open it or play it, facebook also screens files and limits the type of content that can be linked or uploaded, so I would say it is extremely doubtfull if not impossible to spread a virus through facebook

There is a virus infecting this country. His name is Little P.

[RWA]

Maybe it should be addressed just a little bit deeper...

The Victims were not Thai... They were both from the U.K. here in Thailand as tourists! Yet they were not afforded their rights to be protected by International Law!

This was their God Given Right!

Should not all Countries now be worried when their Citizens go on a vacation to Thailand when they are accepted here. Entry is logged in their Passport, being accepted as visitors through Immigrations, then not afforded the rights promised to them that was written in their Passport???

Should not Thailand be put on a Watch List? All Tourists be warned that if a Major Incident should occur... "They or Their Families" stand a very good chance of being washed under the table. Their rights being of no consequence here in Thailand...

Every Major News Outlet should be making this a headline, It should be Posted at every Terminal outgoing to Thailand!

Then lets see if the loss of a Major source of Income here in Thailand "Tourists" will get the citizens here to rise up and request Thailand's Visitors be given the same rights (not offered) that Thai's are guaranteed when they, travel abroad!

All the way around Major Income is going to be lost if the Judicial System here is not educated in what is mandated of them!

Even if every Tourist here cut back on there expenditure's by 2/3rd's it would cause a Major Alarm to ring in someones pocket!

Think about it! If you died tomorrow, can you be fully confident that your rights and those of your family be 100% protected??

I think not!

If I should disappear, we all know why! I have hit a nerve... Thus exposing the Truth! Thus I have exposed the true perpetrators in this Crime. What I have posted has been read, copied to thumb drives here and abroad to protect us all (Actually the complete file here is automatically copied so everyone comments are saved - 128Gb)

???!

I'm a little confused ....

?

[iReason]

"On Thursday, Police Colonel Kissana Phathanacharoen testified that the police had received verbal confirmation from the UK authorities that the phone belonged to Mr Miller, but nothing in writing."

"The Thai police have testified in court that a police liaison officer at the British Embassy in Bangkok helped officers prove the phone belonged to murdered Jersey tourist, David Miller, aged 24, through its unique IMEI number."

"However such assistance would have breached UK legal regulations, which prevent any assistance to a foreign case that might end in the death penalty."

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/owner_of_mobile_phone_linking_burmese_migrant_workers_to_hannah_witheridge_murder_never_established_1_4213643

[z42]

Interesting comments on this article http://www.voanews.com/content/suspects-in-tourist-murders-allege-torture-by-thai-police/3002256.html

[greenchair]

The appeal can present new evidence. ,but it must be to do with the original court hearing. So if there was a new picture that showed someone else doing the crime or sound evidence that the b2 could not possibly have been there. That would be acceptable. But if they wanted to present evidence about the mafia at Koh Tao, if it was not mentioned in the court of first instance, then no. They can only challenge what is in the first court.

So does that mean if evidence was presented that showed Mr X and Mr Y committed the crime the Burmese could be released, but Mr X and Y would not be committed?

Not accurate to state new evidence is permitted. This is the actuality.

There wont be any new evidence or witness in the Appeal Court; Nakhon (defence lawyer) explained; the appeal trial would be mostly an interpretation of existing evidence.

Nobody said that they would present new evidence. He just asked if it was possible to present new evidence in the appeal court. It was a broad question about appeal court procedures. Please read slowly.

[Compo]

AleG often wonders why the defense didn't follow through with their requests to have DNA re-tested, despite repeated postponements and obfuscations by the prosecution and RTP - and the not-so-small factor that the judge(s) put tight restrictions of what could be re-tested. As I've posted prior, the defense finally determined that any DNA samples provided to them would have to be handled by RTP. It doesn't take a Sherlock Holmes to ascertain that DNA samples kept for over a year and handled/labeled by RTP operatives with their vested interests, would be suspect at best.

An American legal expert, Heidi Anna was present at the trial. Below is her assessment of the DNA imbroglio:

“Below is my own personal recollection of events, as recalled from all court sessions, to the best of my recollection. I hereby make no claims that it is 100% accurate:

The defense team requested that the DNA be retested independently and the court finally, after much time and the trial was already well underway, agreed. The police first stated that the DNA sample was “all used up”, which is-in actuality-scientifically impossible!

Then the police later (one or two days time) stated, “no, it was not all used up. we have some of the solution left.” The defense team was granted permission in court to independently retest the sample and so technicians from Dr. Porntip’s lab took cheek swabs from both accused boys, in court under close observation, during the court session during which Dr. Porntip testified.

BUT, what actually remained of the police’s alleged DNA “evidence” to be retested was, in fact, merely the midway solution required in the actual DNA testing process itself. This midpoint solution will give an accurate profile, however, it CANNOT determine the actual ORIGINAL SOURCE of the DNA! Therefore, it will NOT show if original alleged DNA from the female decedent at the crime scene came from “semen” as the Royal Thai Police claim, or if it in fact came from oral mucosa, skin, hair, blood, saliva, cigarette butts, etc.

Also, the court demanded that the DNA evidence from Dr. Porntip’s lab be returned to the COURT itself and NOT to the defense team!!! Thus, the results and factual information would be completely out of the defense team’s hands and thereby highly susceptible to contamination / falsification. For those two reasons, the defense team then; very wisely, declined retesting.

Independent verification (and independent receipt) is another “inalienable human right”, as well as a legal right, agreed upon per international standards, so, once again; the accused boys rights were severely violated.

As a licensed and board certified medical professional, very familiar with and highly experienced with legalities as well as the strict scientifically necessary procedures which MUST be adhered to during the collection of (and rigid documentation of) forensic evidence acquired from rape victims in the Emergency Room intended to be used in a legal court of law in the United States of America, I’m shocked and appalled by the disgracefully unprofessional and non-scientifically qualifying (accurate) collection and so called documentation methods utilized by members of the Royal Thai Police whilst on the crime scene, as well as every action and process of documentation of the alleged DNA evidence utilized and displayed by the Royal Thai police de facto crime scene location. It is my educated and highly experienced professional, and personal, opinion that no one can even be at all certain-in any way-that there ever actually was semen present at the crime scene.

That says it all...

[DiscoDan]

AleG often wonders why the defense didn't follow through with their requests to have DNA re-tested, despite repeated postponements and obfuscations by the prosecution and RTP - and the not-so-small factor that the judge(s) put tight restrictions of what could be re-tested. As I've posted prior, the defense finally determined that any DNA samples provided to them would have to be handled by RTP. It doesn't take a Sherlock Holmes to ascertain that DNA samples kept for over a year and handled/labeled by RTP operatives with their vested interests, would be suspect at best.

An American legal expert, Heidi Anna was present at the trial. Below is her assessment of the DNA imbroglio:

“Below is my own personal recollection of events, as recalled from all court sessions, to the best of my recollection. I hereby make no claims that it is 100% accurate:

The defense team requested that the DNA be retested independently and the court finally, after much time and the trial was already well underway, agreed. The police first stated that the DNA sample was “all used up”, which is-in actuality-scientifically impossible!

Then the police later (one or two days time) stated, “no, it was not all used up. we have some of the solution left.” The defense team was granted permission in court to independently retest the sample and so technicians from Dr. Porntip’s lab took cheek swabs from both accused boys, in court under close observation, during the court session during which Dr. Porntip testified.

BUT, what actually remained of the police’s alleged DNA “evidence” to be retested was, in fact, merely the midway solution required in the actual DNA testing process itself. This midpoint solution will give an accurate profile, however, it CANNOT determine the actual ORIGINAL SOURCE of the DNA! Therefore, it will NOT show if original alleged DNA from the female decedent at the crime scene came from “semen” as the Royal Thai Police claim, or if it in fact came from oral mucosa, skin, hair, blood, saliva, cigarette butts, etc.

Also, the court demanded that the DNA evidence from Dr. Porntip’s lab be returned to the COURT itself and NOT to the defense team!!! Thus, the results and factual information would be completely out of the defense team’s hands and thereby highly susceptible to contamination / falsification. For those two reasons, the defense team then; very wisely, declined retesting.

Independent verification (and independent receipt) is another “inalienable human right”, as well as a legal right, agreed upon per international standards, so, once again; the accused boys rights were severely violated.

As a licensed and board certified medical professional, very familiar with and highly experienced with legalities as well as the strict scientifically necessary procedures which MUST be adhered to during the collection of (and rigid documentation of) forensic evidence acquired from rape victims in the Emergency Room intended to be used in a legal court of law in the United States of America, I’m shocked and appalled by the disgracefully unprofessional and non-scientifically qualifying (accurate) collection and so called documentation methods utilized by members of the Royal Thai Police whilst on the crime scene, as well as every action and process of documentation of the alleged DNA evidence utilized and displayed by the Royal Thai police de facto crime scene location. It is my educated and highly experienced professional, and personal, opinion that no one can even be at all certain-in any way-that there ever actually was semen present at the crime scene.

Heidi Anna an American legal expert ? more porky pies

[smedly]

AleG often wonders why the defense didn't follow through with their requests to have DNA re-tested, despite repeated postponements and obfuscations by the prosecution and RTP - and the not-so-small factor that the judge(s) put tight restrictions of what could be re-tested. As I've posted prior, the defense finally determined that any DNA samples provided to them would have to be handled by RTP. It doesn't take a Sherlock Holmes to ascertain that DNA samples kept for over a year and handled/labeled by RTP operatives with their vested interests, would be suspect at best.

An American legal expert, Heidi Anna was present at the trial. Below is her assessment of the DNA imbroglio:

“Below is my own personal recollection of events, as recalled from all court sessions, to the best of my recollection. I hereby make no claims that it is 100% accurate:

The defense team requested that the DNA be retested independently and the court finally, after much time and the trial was already well underway, agreed. The police first stated that the DNA sample was “all used up”, which is-in actuality-scientifically impossible!

Then the police later (one or two days time) stated, “no, it was not all used up. we have some of the solution left.” The defense team was granted permission in court to independently retest the sample and so technicians from Dr. Porntip’s lab took cheek swabs from both accused boys, in court under close observation, during the court session during which Dr. Porntip testified.

BUT, what actually remained of the police’s alleged DNA “evidence” to be retested was, in fact, merely the midway solution required in the actual DNA testing process itself. This midpoint solution will give an accurate profile, however, it CANNOT determine the actual ORIGINAL SOURCE of the DNA! Therefore, it will NOT show if original alleged DNA from the female decedent at the crime scene came from “semen” as the Royal Thai Police claim, or if it in fact came from oral mucosa, skin, hair, blood, saliva, cigarette butts, etc.

Also, the court demanded that the DNA evidence from Dr. Porntip’s lab be returned to the COURT itself and NOT to the defense team!!! Thus, the results and factual information would be completely out of the defense team’s hands and thereby highly susceptible to contamination / falsification. For those two reasons, the defense team then; very wisely, declined retesting.

Independent verification (and independent receipt) is another “inalienable human right”, as well as a legal right, agreed upon per international standards, so, once again; the accused boys rights were severely violated.

As a licensed and board certified medical professional, very familiar with and highly experienced with legalities as well as the strict scientifically necessary procedures which MUST be adhered to during the collection of (and rigid documentation of) forensic evidence acquired from rape victims in the Emergency Room intended to be used in a legal court of law in the United States of America, I’m shocked and appalled by the disgracefully unprofessional and non-scientifically qualifying (accurate) collection and so called documentation methods utilized by members of the Royal Thai Police whilst on the crime scene, as well as every action and process of documentation of the alleged DNA evidence utilized and displayed by the Royal Thai police de facto crime scene location. It is my educated and highly experienced professional, and personal, opinion that no one can even be at all certain-in any way-that there ever actually was semen present at the crime scene.

That says it all...

been repeating much the same thing from last year

what really bothers me was that the court allowed the prosecution to withhold any of the DNA docs they were supposed to have so that that evidence could be scrutinised, they were also allowed to withhold (if they ever existed) "original samples" initially claiming they no longer had them then counter claimed by the police chief that they were available - but still no attempt was made to produce them to the court - only already processed extracts were being offered....no thanks

Then to top it all, the court bases its death penalty verdict on DNA, if people cannot see a problem with that then they must be working with wood

The prosecution knows that the DNA is the issue, if as they say they have the "original samples" then surely it would be in the interests of their case and justice to have it independently retested in an open and transparent manner properly observed and recorded like they should have done the first time - end of

and DNA samples such as sperm claimed taken from the victim is a huge sample by DNA standards and would be quite frankly impossible to use up, also such samples would also have been taken during autopsy, two possible huge sources yet - nothing

[CharlieH]

Given the endless repetition here, its like a magic roundabout, same regurgitated arguments and the persistance to make personal remarks.

THIS THREAD IS NOW SUSPENDED