Entering the Jhanas

[camerata]

Entering the Jhanas

Entering the jhanas is not easy—the harder you try, the more difficult it becomes. But as Leigh Brasington explains, you can make yourself ready for them to open up to you.

Perhaps no aspect of the Buddha’s teaching has been both more misunderstood and neglected than right concentration. Yet right concentration is obviously an integral part of the Buddha’s path to awakening: the final item of the noble eightfold path, it is exemplified by, and sometimes even defined as, the jhanas. Before his awakening, the Buddha remembered an incident from his childhood when he had experienced the first jhana; upon further reflection, he concluded, “That is indeed the path to awakening.”

The word “jhana” literally means “meditation”; it comes from the verb jhayati, which means “to meditate.” Many times, the Buddha would give a dhamma talk and close it by saying, “There are these roots of trees, these empty huts—go meditate (jhayati).” From this usage of jhayati, it seems certain that what the Buddha meant by meditation was jhana practice.

The Buddha’s teachings can be divided into three parts: sila, samadhi, and panna (ethical conduct, concentration, and wisdom). Or to put it into the vernacular: clean up your act, concentrate your mind, and use your concentrated mind to investigate reality. Each practice the Buddha taught fits neatly into one of the three categories. The precepts and the brahmavihara practices of loving-kindness, compassion, appreciative joy, and equanimity are ethical practices. The brahmavihara practices, especially loving-kindness (metta) practice, can also generate concentration, as do mantra and visualization practices. But most everything else you think of when you hear the word meditation is a wisdom practice, intended to help you “see the way things are” (or, perhaps more accurately, “what’s actually happening”). The Buddha makes it clear that this examination of reality should be done with a concentrated mind. And the jhanas are the method he taught, over and over again.

Full article: Lion's Roar

[rockyysdt]

Very insightful article and strikes a cord with me.

The Buddha’s teachings of sila, samadhi, and panna, as described by Leigh Brasington aligns with my understanding of what is required, and conforms with Buddhadasa's "16 Steps of Anapanasiti" & "The Path of Arahantship" a compilation of Ven Mahã Boowa’s path of practice.

Maha Boowa described great effort and resolve needed to attain a daily deep stillness of the mind over several weeks or months, in order to bring about a level of concentration needed to investigate and bring about personal experience.

A level which I can only dream of attaining.

[camerata]

You and me both!

I just read a book about an American guy who practised zazen meditation at a Zen monastery in a small town in Japan in the 70s. The local and foreign monks there, who were all very serious about meditation, were all knocking back the sake whenever they had the chance - even the one who experienced satori after a relatively short time. They weren't allowed to meditate if they had alcohol in their blood, but one wonders how they made any progress. The Theravada view is that successful meditation depends on sila.

[rockyysdt]

You and me both!

I just read a book about an American guy who practised zazen meditation at a Zen monastery in a small town in Japan in the 70s. The local and foreign monks there, who were all very serious about meditation, were all knocking back the sake whenever they had the chance - even the one who experienced satori after a relatively short time. They weren't allowed to meditate if they had alcohol in their blood, but one wonders how they made any progress. The Theravada view is that successful meditation depends on sila.

Without Sila, Ego will easily drop practice for experiences associated with desire.

My main stumbling block is discarding habitual conditioning.

Braking the mold of my conditioning.

Any attempt to practice Mindfulness & Sitting Concentration is short lived.

Even 10 day retreats only yield moments of true Samadhi, an experience beyond words.

I don't know what my personal answer is.

All I can say is that there is precious little time left as it passes before me at a very rapid rate.

[FruitPudding]

I experienced something once.

I was in Anapanna meditation and it became effortless. I had no desire to leave, merely watching the breath was all i needed.

The next day, i went out on the bus and i just felt amazing. I felt weightless and at complete ease. I was insanely happy and couldn't stop smiling. A few older women noticed and were observing me. They seemed pleased by my insane happiness.

My Sila was awful back then.

That was 4 years ago. I haven't kept up my meditation and have been through various hell.

My Sila is still bad.

Though sometimes when I wake up, I find myself observing respiration.

[FruitPudding]

(Double post.)

I really should start sitting again.

[only1]

Please note that meditation will not work without full understandings and belief of the 4NT and N8FP, if you are referring for enlightenment. At most, it helps relaxation.

[VincentRJ]

Interesting article, Camerata. Thanks.

The main obstacle to meditation is the busy lifestyle that most of us lead, with a perpetual list of things that need to be done or attended to, causing a continuous degree of concern and worry, whether great or small. The Meditation Retreat should help to isolate us from this normally busy environment, allowing for easier meditation, I imagine.

However, I've never attended a commercially organised Meditation Retreat. I've got my own hideaway, and I'm inherently reluctant to submit myself to other people's rules. Perhaps my ego is too big.

[only1]

Interesting article, Camerata. Thanks.

The main obstacle to meditation is the busy lifestyle that most of us lead, with a perpetual list of things that need to be done or attended to, causing a continuous degree of concern and worry, whether great or small. The Meditation Retreat should help to isolate us from this normally busy environment, allowing for easier meditation, I imagine.

However, I've never attended a commercially organised Meditation Retreat. I've got my own hideaway, and I'm inherently reluctant to submit myself to other people's rules. Perhaps my ego is too big.

That is why Buddhism theories must be learnt first. If you fully understand 4NT and N8FP, you will not so much of those concern and worries around you during meditation. Or else, you could not meditate well and even if you do, the effect is just good while you are doing it. After the end of the retreat or session, you are back to square one.

The same with ego. If you understand Buddhism, you will let go your ego and you will not think "Why should I let go my ego ?".

[camerata]

Interesting article, Camerata. Thanks.

The main obstacle to meditation is the busy lifestyle that most of us lead, with a perpetual list of things that need to be done or attended to, causing a continuous degree of concern and worry, whether great or small. The Meditation Retreat should help to isolate us from this normally busy environment, allowing for easier meditation, I imagine.

However, I've never attended a commercially organised Meditation Retreat. I've got my own hideaway, and I'm inherently reluctant to submit myself to other people's rules. Perhaps my ego is too big.

I don't think ego is so much of a problem as being used to a high degree of control over our personal lives. It then becomes difficult to relinquish that control. That's certainly the main reason I never ordained for the traditional 3 months. It's even more difficult if one has an introvert personality. A cave in the jungle, yes, cooped up with 20 monks, no!

I find with shorter meditation retreats there are too many distractions. Not enough room for walking meditation, aircon too cold, tuk-tuks revving outside, etc.

[VincentRJ]

Interesting article, Camerata. Thanks.

The main obstacle to meditation is the busy lifestyle that most of us lead, with a perpetual list of things that need to be done or attended to, causing a continuous degree of concern and worry, whether great or small. The Meditation Retreat should help to isolate us from this normally busy environment, allowing for easier meditation, I imagine.

However, I've never attended a commercially organised Meditation Retreat. I've got my own hideaway, and I'm inherently reluctant to submit myself to other people's rules. Perhaps my ego is too big.

I don't think ego is so much of a problem as being used to a high degree of control over our personal lives. It then becomes difficult to relinquish that control. That's certainly the main reason I never ordained for the traditional 3 months. It's even more difficult if one has an introvert personality. A cave in the jungle, yes, cooped up with 20 monks, no!

Yes. Perhaps that's true. I also can't reconcile what I imagine to be a Buddhist goal of control over oneself and one's desires, (which I am managing quite well, but not perfect), with the submission to the rule of others or the rules of a monastic order.

　

I find with shorter meditation retreats there are too many distractions. Not enough room for walking meditation, aircon too cold, tuk-tuks revving outside, etc.

I can imagine that would be the case. I'm thankful that I have my own little forest retreat, which is a few acres of land in the Australia bush. It's peaceful and quiet and I'm able to feel at one with nature. Nevertheless, I do have a few chores to attend to regularly, since I grow my own food, and I have an accumulation of old possessions and junk which I need to sort out and take to the rubbish dump, so I'm fairly busy, but at my own pace.

[rockyysdt]

The Meditation Retreat should help to isolate us from this normally busy environment, allowing for easier meditation, I imagine.

My experience with isolation from normal life at retreats is to be confronted with an avalanche of thought.

The normal externally generated distractions make way for distractions of the mind.

My mind becomes relentless.

All manner of thought, annoyance from others, the desire to be doing something better with my time, or unresolved inter personal issues.

These themes constantly come up to form a barrier from concentration.

A personal passion of mine is for vintage Triumph motorcycles.

Two retreat trips ago, I actually tore down and rebuilt a Triumph motor step by step, six times.

On this occasion I got to the point where I gave up even trying to meditate.

I just focused on posture and breath.

Samadhi crept up swept me away.

My lesson was not to try, but to focus attention on the conditions which bring about Samadhi.

Posture (aligned with gravity)

Body (releasing tension)

Breath (medium to long uncontrolled breathe)

Attitude (gently come back to the breathe without blame or concern if the mind wanders).

Forest retreats are best.

If they're well run, basically it becomes your sanctuary.

A place in which your vital needs are taken care of (food, sleep, safety, isolation, support).

A place where you are free to practice.

[lungmi]

Rocky: "A place where you are free to practice."

My answer: A place where you are free not to practice. (with intention)

Explanation: I was baby monk in Wat Umong Chiangmai. I learnt Walking Meditation.

One day I was on the Super Highway for Walking Meditation. (Teakwood etc.)

Some other monks overtook me by their speed. No problem.

On the way to ny kuti I saw monks giving food to the fish.

I saw everything in slow motion.

Later I go in my kuti to lay down.

Laying there something opened my mind and body same onionskin.

Later I read in in the library in a book written by Alexandra David Neel that my experince must be the four jhanas with form.

I was confused and went to my German preceptor He said : No problem, enjoy, you are on the good way, but it isn't very important.

Don't be attached to this experience, continue to explore your buddhist nativity with naivity.

[rockyysdt]

Rocky: "A place where you are free to practice."

My answer: A place where you are free not to practice. (with intention)

Explanation: I was baby monk in Wat Umong Chiangmai. I learnt Walking Meditation.

One day I was on the Super Highway for Walking Meditation. (Teakwood etc.)

Some other monks overtook me by their speed. No problem.

On the way to ny kuti I saw monks giving food to the fish.

I saw everything in slow motion.

Later I go in my kuti to lay down.

Laying there something opened my mind and body same onionskin.

Later I read in in the library in a book written by Alexandra David Neel that my experince must be the four jhanas with form.

I was confused and went to my German preceptor He said : No problem, enjoy, you are on the good way, but it isn't very important.

Don't be attached to this experience, continue to explore your buddhist nativity with naivity.

I am thankful and humbled by your teaching and will take this to my next retreat.

[lungmi]

sorry, I was lazy, I wanted to give you information about the 4 ways to awakening.. I fall down in my research for correct Pali translation.

Rsi is one way for awakening!!! The innocent baby (naive with buddhist nativity, every human is born this way, my dogs too)

I gave you already the story of the Chinese monk sitting on a tree and speaking with the birds, no need

to waste his time in the temple?

sorr

[lungmi]

Entering the Jhanas. Stupid way. The Jhanas are entering you, if you are ready

[only1]

sorry, I was lazy, I wanted to give you information about the 4 ways to awakening.. I fall down in my research for correct Pali translation.

Rsi is one way for awakening!!! The innocent baby (naive with buddhist nativity, every human is born this way, my dogs too)

I gave you already the story of the Chinese monk sitting on a tree and speaking with the birds, no need

to waste his time in the temple?

sorr

In Buddhism, there is no stupid book or weekly sessions to follow.

All you need is the 4 Noble Truth and Noble 8 Fold Fath.

[VincentRJ]

You and me both!

I just read a book about an American guy who practised zazen meditation at a Zen monastery in a small town in Japan in the 70s. The local and foreign monks there, who were all very serious about meditation, were all knocking back the sake whenever they had the chance - even the one who experienced satori after a relatively short time. They weren't allowed to meditate if they had alcohol in their blood, but one wonders how they made any progress. The Theravada view is that successful meditation depends on sila.

I don't know what my personal answer is.

All I can say is that there is precious little time left as it passes before me at a very rapid rate.

Hi Rocky,

I'd say that this sense of urgency about reaching some state of Nirvana or enlightenment in this lifetime, which you've expressed a few times on this forum, is an obstacle in itself.

Our concepts of time are very much a part of our conditioning, which we should try to free ourselves from, in accordance with Buddhist teachings.

If rebirth is real, you've got all the time in the world to achieve your goal. If rebirth is not real, but just a fanciful notion, then it doesn't matter if you don't reach your concept of an ultimate goal in this life, because there are no consequences for you when you pass away.

The main issue is to do the best you can in this life, in accordance with those Buddhist precepts which make sense to you, and accept the outcome with equanimity.

[rockyysdt]

You and me both!

I just read a book about an American guy who practised zazen meditation at a Zen monastery in a small town in Japan in the 70s. The local and foreign monks there, who were all very serious about meditation, were all knocking back the sake whenever they had the chance - even the one who experienced satori after a relatively short time. They weren't allowed to meditate if they had alcohol in their blood, but one wonders how they made any progress. The Theravada view is that successful meditation depends on sila.

I don't know what my personal answer is.

All I can say is that there is precious little time left as it passes before me at a very rapid rate.

Hi Rocky,

I'd say that this sense of urgency about reaching some state of Nirvana or enlightenment in this lifetime, which you've expressed a few times on this forum, is an obstacle in itself.

Our concepts of time are very much a part of our conditioning, which we should try to free ourselves from, in accordance with Buddhist teachings.

If rebirth is real, you've got all the time in the world to achieve your goal. If rebirth is not real, but just a fanciful notion, then it doesn't matter if you don't reach your concept of an ultimate goal in this life, because there are no consequences for you when you pass away.

The main issue is to do the best you can in this life, in accordance with those Buddhist precepts which make sense to you, and accept the outcome with equanimity.

Hi Vincent.

I fully concur.

The urgency comes from my conditioned & impermanent self.

This transient self, which we have all discussed on many occasion, non the less is all we are conscious of.

I am talking about the difference between a currently not yet existent "instance of Re Birth" being associated with a future Awakening in a millennium or two, vs Rocky or Vincent being associated with an Awakening.

If what we are taught is correct, that Vincent and Rocky, as we know them, are impermanent and conditioned, and subject to change and expiry, then Vincent & Rocky only have one crack it.

Not Awakening will result in Vincent & Rocky being replaced with other impermanent & conditioned travelers, alien to us.

Our only association will be the lineage of Re Birth, which to us is meaningless as we will have expired.

Arising from the ashes will be a Supreme Consciousness which is wonderful for itself but it will not be us.

Vincent & Rocky, being impermanent and conditioned are not Citta.

To the one who is impermanent and conditioned, isn't passing away never having experienced Citta, identical to Citta being a fanciful idea?

After all, as impermanent and conditioned as they are, aren't Rocky & Vincent real to themselves and when they expire Unawakened, as far as they are concerned, they will never know whether Citta exists or it doesn't?

[VincentRJ]

You and me both!

I just read a book about an American guy who practised zazen meditation at a Zen monastery in a small town in Japan in the 70s. The local and foreign monks there, who were all very serious about meditation, were all knocking back the sake whenever they had the chance - even the one who experienced satori after a relatively short time. They weren't allowed to meditate if they had alcohol in their blood, but one wonders how they made any progress. The Theravada view is that successful meditation depends on sila.

I don't know what my personal answer is.

All I can say is that there is precious little time left as it passes before me at a very rapid rate.

Hi Rocky,

I'd say that this sense of urgency about reaching some state of Nirvana or enlightenment in this lifetime, which you've expressed a few times on this forum, is an obstacle in itself.

Our concepts of time are very much a part of our conditioning, which we should try to free ourselves from, in accordance with Buddhist teachings.

If rebirth is real, you've got all the time in the world to achieve your goal. If rebirth is not real, but just a fanciful notion, then it doesn't matter if you don't reach your concept of an ultimate goal in this life, because there are no consequences for you when you pass away.

The main issue is to do the best you can in this life, in accordance with those Buddhist precepts which make sense to you, and accept the outcome with equanimity.

If what we are taught is correct, that Vincent and Rocky, as we know them, are impermanent and conditioned, and subject to change and expiry, then Vincent & Rocky only have one crack (at) it.

I'm not sure I fully agree on that point, Rocky. The general Buddhist concept, as I understand it, is that we have many cracks at it, through the processes of rebirth. We are not aware of our previous lives until we become enlightened.

According to the Pali Canon, Gautama recalled thousands of previous lives during his night under the Bodhi tree, prior to full enlightenment. I presume such clarity of thought which would enable such recalls would also be required for the experience of Nirvana.

Now I understand that it can be quite comforting for science-oriented Westerners to accept the Buddhadasa view that the concept of rebirth is a metaphor for previous thoughts and states-of-mind that have occurred in this lifetime.

But let's face it, such a view diminishes the grandeur and mystique of Buddhism. It also raises doubts about the reality of these mysterious states of mind described as Nirvana or unconditioned bliss. Are these perhaps also metaphors for just an unusually calm and peaceful state of mind which can be achieved through a variety of methods?

[VincentRJ]

Rocky,

To expand upon this obstacle that could result from a sense of urgency that one has only 'one crack at' reaching a state of enlightenment, imagine the concern and worry that a young person might experience if he were told that he had only one crack at passing his exams, and if he failed, that would detrimentally affect his career for the rest of his life, and that there was nothing he could do about it.

That situation might motivate the person to work much harder to ensure he never failed an exam, but such motivation would not be appropriate for the purposes of reaching a state of elimination of all worries, fears, and even every thought.

The very notion that one will be reborn into better circumstances for a second, third and fourth try, and so on, if one behaves well in this life, could contribute to a calming effect that actually results in one achieving full awakening in this life.

[rockyysdt]

The very notion that one will be reborn into better circumstances for a second, third and fourth try, and so on, if one behaves well in this life, could contribute to a calming effect that actually results in one achieving full awakening in this life.

Although there are similarities, the example of an examination is completely different.

The student doesn't die, and has time to improve.

On the other hand, the part of Rocky & Vincent which is impermanent and Conditioned expires upon death.

That which is Re Born shares the same lineage but is not Rocky or Vincent, otherwise they would be permanent.

It is the impermanent & conditioned aspect of us which makes us who we are.

This is all we know.

There maybe a permanent and unconditioned aspect, but we are not conscious of it and to our impermanent & conditioned consciousness, it may as well be a symbiont.

There is no place in Nibanna for Rocky & Vincent (conditioned & impermanent) only that which is unconditioned and permanent.

[VincentRJ]

The very notion that one will be reborn into better circumstances for a second, third and fourth try, and so on, if one behaves well in this life, could contribute to a calming effect that actually results in one achieving full awakening in this life.

Although there are similarities, the example of an examination is completely different.

The student doesn't die, and has time to improve.

Quite so, which is why I qualified my analogy as follows...."imagine the concern and worry that a young person might experience if he were told that he had only one crack at passing his exams, and if he failed, that would detrimentally affect his career for the rest of his life, and that there was nothing he could do about it."

Of course, the reality is, if one fails in an exam, or in any endeavour, one can try again as often as one likes, if one is sufficiently motivated and circumstances permit. There are lots of examples of elderly people beginning a university course, or even doing a PhD in their 70's, 80's and even 90's.

My impression is that achieving a state of Buddhist enlightenment or Nirvana might be a lot more difficult, for most of us, than getting a university degree, but that's just speculation.

The puzzle for me is, why would anyone be concerned about not achieving enlightenment, or freedom from the 'wheel of life', if one doesn't believe in the reality of the 'wheel of life', or the reality of reincarnation, or rebirth.

If one is suffering in some way, unhappy, depressed or angry for whatever reason, there are lots of remedies to try. I happen to prefer natural remedies, probably as a result of my upbringing and conditioning. I have a faith in the natural intelligence of the body to fix its own problems, if we allow it to.

I'm suspicious of much of our modern medical intervention. I see it often as just a solution for people who don't want to change their lifestyle, which is often the root cause of the problem. The food industry and the medical industry seem to be in cahoots in this regard.

On the other hand, I see the quietening of the mind through Buddhist meditation practices, or through Hatha Yoga practices, as a natural, pure and clean remedy for problems in general, as is periodic fasting.

However, I hope I'm not creating the impression that I'm not grateful for modern medical advances. I am grateful. There are many situations in which modern medical procedures transcend natural processes and save lives. They would include serious accidents, genetic disorders, and infections from unfamiliar viruses and bacteria which the body's immune system is not used to.

　

On the other hand, the part of Rocky & Vincent which is impermanent and Conditioned expires upon death.That which is Re Born shares the same lineage but is not Rocky or Vincent, otherwise they would be permanent.It is the impermanent & conditioned aspect of us which makes us who we are.This is all we know.There maybe a permanent and unconditioned aspect, but we are not conscious of it and to our impermanent & conditioned consciousness, it may as well be a symbiont.There is no place in Nibanna for Rocky & Vincent (conditioned & impermanent) only that which is unconditioned and permanent.

You raise some problematical questions from a philosophical perspective, Rocky. The Buddhist notion that everything is impermanent and subject to 'cause and effect', or 'conditioning', resonates with the modern scientific view. We understand from science that nothing is truly permanent. However, the degrees of permanency can vary wildly.

In Lamington National Park near Brisbane, Australia, one can see Antarctic Beech Trees growing in the same location that they grew 180 million years ago in Gondwanaland, which was located in the Antarctic before the land mass broke up, forming Australia, South America and South Africa.

The trees that you see today are not 180 million years old, of course. The oldest is maybe only 12,000 years old. But they're being reborn or reincarnated in approximately the same location, despite the continental drift. They don't have individual names like Rocky or Vincent, but they are still the same species of tree, apparently.

http://oltw.blogspot.com.au/2011/12/12000-year-old-antarctic-beech.html

[FruitPudding]

You and me both!

I just read a book about an American guy who practised zazen meditation at a Zen monastery in a small town in Japan in the 70s. The local and foreign monks there, who were all very serious about meditation, were all knocking back the sake whenever they had the chance - even the one who experienced satori after a relatively short time. They weren't allowed to meditate if they had alcohol in their blood, but one wonders how they made any progress. The Theravada view is that successful meditation depends on sila.

I don't know what my personal answer is.

All I can say is that there is precious little time left as it passes before me at a very rapid rate.

Hi Rocky,

I'd say that this sense of urgency about reaching some state of Nirvana or enlightenment in this lifetime, which you've expressed a few times on this forum, is an obstacle in itself.

Our concepts of time are very much a part of our conditioning, which we should try to free ourselves from, in accordance with Buddhist teachings.

If rebirth is real, you've got all the time in the world to achieve your goal. If rebirth is not real, but just a fanciful notion, then it doesn't matter if you don't reach your concept of an ultimate goal in this life, because there are no consequences for you when you pass away.

The main issue is to do the best you can in this life, in accordance with those Buddhist precepts which make sense to you, and accept the outcome with equanimity.

There is no reason for us to think that the rebirth takes place after death (our physical death). There is no reason for us to think that we have another life after our bodies die.

I would say. Hell is here. Heaven is here. We are reborn throughout out this life. I would say we have more reason to believe that than anything else. Who knows, maybe after we die there will be another life. But we have no reason to believe that.

All we know right now, in this moment, is: we have one life with different states of existence right here (heaven/hell) and we can be "reborn" into different states depending on what we do (cause/effect). If you want to call that "different lives" OK.

I don't think we have any real reason to believe that there is anything else after this life and I think we have every reason to believe, as Rocky says, we have just one crack at it.

[VincentRJ]

You and me both!

I just read a book about an American guy who practised zazen meditation at a Zen monastery in a small town in Japan in the 70s. The local and foreign monks there, who were all very serious about meditation, were all knocking back the sake whenever they had the chance - even the one who experienced satori after a relatively short time. They weren't allowed to meditate if they had alcohol in their blood, but one wonders how they made any progress. The Theravada view is that successful meditation depends on sila.

I don't know what my personal answer is.

All I can say is that there is precious little time left as it passes before me at a very rapid rate.

Hi Rocky,

I'd say that this sense of urgency about reaching some state of Nirvana or enlightenment in this lifetime, which you've expressed a few times on this forum, is an obstacle in itself.

Our concepts of time are very much a part of our conditioning, which we should try to free ourselves from, in accordance with Buddhist teachings.

If rebirth is real, you've got all the time in the world to achieve your goal. If rebirth is not real, but just a fanciful notion, then it doesn't matter if you don't reach your concept of an ultimate goal in this life, because there are no consequences for you when you pass away.

The main issue is to do the best you can in this life, in accordance with those Buddhist precepts which make sense to you, and accept the outcome with equanimity.

There is no reason for us to think that the rebirth takes place after death (our physical death). There is no reason for us to think that we have another life after our bodies die.

I would say. Hell is here. Heaven is here. We are reborn throughout out this life. I would say we have more reason to believe that than anything else. Who knows, maybe after we die there will be another life. But we have no reason to believe that.

All we know right now, in this moment, is: we have one life with different states of existence right here (heaven/hell) and we can be "reborn" into different states depending on what we do (cause/effect). If you want to call that "different lives" OK.

I don't think we have any real reason to believe that there is anything else after this life and I think we have every reason to believe, as Rocky says, we have just one crack at it.

I have to disagree. There is reason to think that rebirth takes place, but there is no scientific proof that it takes place. There is a distinction between those two situations.

The following very detailed article on the work of Dr Ian Stevenson, who was a psychiatrist who worked for the University of Virginia School of Medicine for 50 years, implies that reincarnation might be a reality. However, more controlled research needs to be done, which is difficult, expensive and sometimes unethical and impractical when it's required to put human beings in a completely controlled environment, like rats in a cage.

http://www.near-death.com/reincarnation/research/ian-stevenson.html

I tend to be atheistic with regard to the existence of an all-powerful creator god, but agnostic with regard to the concept of reincarnation or rebirth. Perhaps I'll use this thread as an opportunity to explain why, if that's okay with Camerata who started the thread.

We understand from modern science that there is always a cause and effect, however tiny that effect might be, and that such effects are consistent with so-called laws of physics.

However, when it comes to justice and retribution in all societies on Earth, in this lifetime, there is a ridiculous degree of inconsistency, depending on culture and tradition. In some societies, the punishment for adultery was stoning to death. In modern Australia, it's no big deal. The parties involved might get a separation or divorce, or might make up and continue with their lives together. Much more civilized than stoning to death.

Not only do the consequences of misdemeanours, unethical behaviour and crimes vary considerably in different cultures, according to man-made laws, but corruption and/or incompetence seems wide-spread, sometimes resulting in people losing their lives for crimes they did not commit. Nobody knows how many people have been hanged or electrocuted in countries with the death penalty, for crimes which they did not commit. But we know there are some.

Karma, which includes the concept of physical rebirth, can appeal to some of us, including myself, because it could rationally and reasonably have the qualities of a 'natural' and 'objective' cause and effect process, in relation to human behaviour, according to the objective laws of some future Physics or other scientific discipline which are not yet understood.

Science is always exploring the unknown. What we don't know far, far, far exceeds what we do know.

I've mentioned the current situation regarding Dark Matter and Dark Energy on this forum a few times, because I think it highlights so clearly the limitations of our scientific knowledge.

According to our observations of the universe, with our best telescopes in relation to our best scientific theories, 95% of the matter and energy that surrounds us is totally invisible and undetectable by any scientific instruments. What a huge discrepancy!

When the major religions of the world were created, people in those days had little understanding the vastness of the universe, no awareness of the existence of the elctromagnetic spectrum which includes many frequencies of a similar nature to light, but of a different wave length, such as radio waves, and no understanding even of the extent of the land masses on the planet earth.

After a few centuries of scientific endeavour, we have now come to the stage where we think we might have reasonably well understood the nature of 5% of the matter and energy in the universe. That's progress, but it sure leaves room for the existence of Karma and Rebirth, don't you think?

[sklmeeera]

Thats just your monkey mind looking for something to complain about or get interested in because watching the breath is boring to it initially . This changes . So if you are distracted by tuk tuks or air conditioners just note it and return to the meditation object again and again . To monks and experienced meditators there are not really any outside distractions .