Going Down: Businesses on Phuket’s famed Bangla Rd suffer as clientele dries up

[dageurreotype]

gamini,where do you get off calling all British bar owners pimps?

A pimp is a person(male or female) who lives off the immoral earnings of a person(male or female)

engaged in providing sexual services for money.

It doesnt work like that,as any bar owner will tell you.My place was a straight,non rip off bar for all

the years we had it.All the lady drinks were charged at bar price + 30 baht for the girl,so all we ever

saw was the bar price paid.All the girls were free to decide if they wanted to extend their time with a customer

off the premises.Yes!we charged a bar fine,and that was for the loss of the girls attendance in the bar

for the time she was away.The maximum bar fine was ever only 300 baht.That was a very small part of our

profit.And i might say very inexpensive to the customer.What agreement the girls came to with the customer off the bar

was entirely up to them,we never got any commission or percentage.If we had,then that would have been

living off immoral earnings.We had some very popular girls,the proof being the returning customers.

And your remark about being so ugly they cant get a girl back home.Thats an insult to people who may not be

'Tom Cruise'or 75 kilo's.Do you think these people should be disallowed a sex life then? Our bar was a good

place to visit,we never had any body kick off,or ripped off by a girl or for drinks.Reading your post

i get the impression that you are a sanctimonious,holier than thou person,who has suffered in the past

for one reason or another.You should join the Salvation army.I'm so happy we never met.

KKD

I used to pop into a bar run by a British guy and his 'lovely lady' who was still working (unbeknowns to him) and he'd told me he'd walked into his business eyes wide shut. He'd said he'd tried to do without the hos but his takings halved so had them back in. I told him he was therefore a pimp. There's no argument about this. If you are making money off of prostitution you are a PIMP and no amount of 'well, we do charge a bar fine 'for when they're not working IN the bar' will cut it. If the tarts weren't there, neither would the mongers supplementing your income be. Duh.

[simon43]

Mahjong Parlors...Karaoke Spots? What's the general age and interests of the Chinese tourists? Put on your thinking caps guys and do things like approaching the tour companies to see what their clients want and make deals -- should work for restaurants and shops, maybe even the right kind of bar/karaoke parlor. Don't just sit and whine about selling less wine, so to speak. Adapt!!!

As I mentioned in a post 1 month back, on one of my rare visits to Patong, I saw many closed, failing and 'for rent'/for sale' businesses.

But I also saw a number of businesses who had successfully adapted to the new tourists ==> offering 'Chinese Fast Food' (whatever that is), and with many advertising signs in Chinese language. Those businesses were packed with Chinese tourists who were spending their money.

On the whole, the Chinese tourists do spend less per head when compared to their Western counterpart. But there are an awful lot more Chinese tourists. So by lowering prices and selling more, the business owner can still adapt and be successful.

Although my business is not in Patong, but at the airport, I've experienced a similar change in guest demographics. So I've lowered my room rates and I have more customers. To return my overall profit level to that earned in previous years, I'm building more 'budget' guest rooms.

I've seen the same adaption at other hotels in this area - Airport Resort and Spa (previously upmarket Thai-style guest rooms and owned by the Pu Yai Bahn) has built an 8-storey block of budget rooms for these new types of travellers.

'Adapt to the change, or go out of business' - that byline applies to any business in any country in the world - basic business economics.

[spidermike007]

gamini,where do you get off calling all British bar owners pimps?

A pimp is a person(male or female) who lives off the immoral earnings of a person(male or female)

engaged in providing sexual services for money.

It doesnt work like that,as any bar owner will tell you.My place was a straight,non rip off bar for all

the years we had it.All the lady drinks were charged at bar price + 30 baht for the girl,so all we ever

saw was the bar price paid.All the girls were free to decide if they wanted to extend their time with a customer

off the premises.Yes!we charged a bar fine,and that was for the loss of the girls attendance in the bar

for the time she was away.The maximum bar fine was ever only 300 baht.That was a very small part of our

profit.And i might say very inexpensive to the customer.What agreement the girls came to with the customer off the bar

was entirely up to them,we never got any commission or percentage.If we had,then that would have been

living off immoral earnings.We had some very popular girls,the proof being the returning customers.

And your remark about being so ugly they cant get a girl back home.Thats an insult to people who may not be

'Tom Cruise'or 75 kilo's.Do you think these people should be disallowed a sex life then? Our bar was a good

place to visit,we never had any body kick off,or ripped off by a girl or for drinks.Reading your post

i get the impression that you are a sanctimonious,holier than thou person,who has suffered in the past

for one reason or another.You should join the Salvation army.I'm so happy we never met.

KKD

I used to pop into a bar run by a British guy and his 'lovely lady' who was still working (unbeknowns to him) and he'd told me he'd walked into his business eyes wide shut. He'd said he'd tried to do without the hos but his takings halved so had them back in. I told him he was therefore a pimp. There's no argument about this. If you are making money off of prostitution you are a PIMP and no amount of 'well, we do charge a bar fine 'for when they're not working IN the bar' will cut it. If the tarts weren't there, neither would the mongers supplementing your income be. Duh.

Who cares? Though I have never been an official pimp, I think for the most part they provide a very useful service, and as long as they treat their gals well, with respect and honor, it can be an honorable profession. What is all of the fuss. Why the soapbox preaching? What, are we better than them?

[elgordo38]

In the future I think the drought here will spill over into the tourist business as well. I like some of the comments of business people that adapt to change and prosper. You have to be nimble. That is the key to have the foresight to change maybe lower prices a bit and cater to different cultures food tastes. If there is more Chinese coming you have to target them. Unfortunately most Thai businesses do not adapt to change but go against the grain thinking higher prices are the answer. They are focused to much on the baht and not on keeping a clean profitable establishment. You can now overlay that thinking over the entire country. They fix nothing till it is broken beyond repair. Maintenance is another unheard of word here. You can translate that as well to the quality of goods sold here. When I buy something I try for a 2 or 3 year guarantee as I figure the item will not last longer. Also when something breaks down they must ship it where to repair? to Bangkok of course the hub of commerce. Then its a 4 to 6 week wait to get the item back. To many apples in one basket.

[AJBangkok]

Mahjong Parlors...Karaoke Spots? What's the general age and interests of the Chinese tourists? Put on your thinking caps guys and do things like approaching the tour companies to see what their clients want and make deals -- should work for restaurants and shops, maybe even the right kind of bar/karaoke parlor. Don't just sit and whine about selling less wine, so to speak. Adapt!!!

As I mentioned in a post 1 month back, on one of my rare visits to Patong, I saw many closed, failing and 'for rent'/for sale' businesses.

But I also saw a number of businesses who had successfully adapted to the new tourists ==> offering 'Chinese Fast Food' (whatever that is), and with many advertising signs in Chinese language. Those businesses were packed with Chinese tourists who were spending their money.

On the whole, the Chinese tourists do spend less per head when compared to their Western counterpart. But there are an awful lot more Chinese tourists. So by lowering prices and selling more, the business owner can still adapt and be successful.

Although my business is not in Patong, but at the airport, I've experienced a similar change in guest demographics. So I've lowered my room rates and I have more customers. To return my overall profit level to that earned in previous years, I'm building more 'budget' guest rooms.

I've seen the same adaption at other hotels in this area - Airport Resort and Spa (previously upmarket Thai-style guest rooms and owned by the Pu Yai Bahn) has built an 8-storey block of budget rooms for these new types of travellers.

'Adapt to the change, or go out of business' - that byline applies to any business in any country in the world - basic business economics.

Probably one of the best if not the best post on this thread.

I'll offer a similar opinion that the goose that laid the golden egg is still alive and kicking and actually doing better than ever.

Tourism is at an all time high in Phuket. People allegde that the new chinese tourist spends less than the western tourist but looking at the big picture there are so many more chinese that overall ( if you believe the TAT) the money flowing into the economy from Tourisim is also at an all time high.

The problem for us westerners is that western tourism is declining and the demand is no longer there to support all the local business that provide goods and services to the western orientated tourist ( and resident) . Those of us that remain end up paying more for, less choices, worse quality and poorer services. The flip side of that is that if your a chinese tourist then economies of scale are kicking in so you pay less, you have more choice, better quality and the best service.

Local business will either adapt or die. Recent history is a great case study on how local businesses were able to quickly adapt to the massive influx of Russians to phuket. A Russian tourist combining to phuket in 2007 had almost zero options but in 2012 and 2013 there was a huge infrustructure to support them.

The same will happen with the Chinese. Perhaps in a few years it will be easier to get dim sum in Bangla road that a cheeseburger. That may be bad for us westerners but the Chinese are gonna love it.

I would think that the local merchants wouldnt give a toss if they have to sell fish and chips or sharks fin soup so long as they make their profit.

As far as wealth creation goes I would also hazard a guess that at the very top of the pile it's the same people making money off the chinese as making money off the western tourist. To them it's just another income stream and when one income stream rises and another one declines then they must focus more of their resources on the rising (Chinese) income stream. It's just business.

Business that don't adapt will die. Money is still circulating and the people who are at the bottom of the pile getting a piece of the action may be changing but those at the top are still raking it in.

We can yell as loud as we like that the end is near, and maybe for our way of life it is, but the reality is that it's just the end of one business cycle and the beginning of another.

The corrupt officials will still get to wet their beaks from the new businesses so I doubt if they care if western Tourisim is dead so long as someone is paying the bills.

On the above point the greatest threat to the "shadow" economy in a place like phuket actually comes from corporatization of the economy. Central, big C, Makro, or any of the national chain business are pretty much immune to local graft . Try asking for protection money from KFC or you'll throw a rock through the window. The manager says sorry Its impossible for me to give cash as every penny is recorded. So go ahead and throw your rock. If a local tax official walks into a Starbucks and try's to shake them down, the manager just pointst to the POS system and says go ask Bangkok.

As more and more national chain businesses appear in Phuket then that will put serious pressure on businesses without the corporate anominity security blanket. I'm not sure what will happen on that front but it will be interesting to watch.

[AJBangkok]

Mahjong Parlors...Karaoke Spots? What's the general age and interests of the Chinese tourists? Put on your thinking caps guys and do things like approaching the tour companies to see what their clients want and make deals -- should work for restaurants and shops, maybe even the right kind of bar/karaoke parlor. Don't just sit and whine about selling less wine, so to speak. Adapt!!!

As I mentioned in a post 1 month back, on one of my rare visits to Patong, I saw many closed, failing and 'for rent'/for sale' businesses.

But I also saw a number of businesses who had successfully adapted to the new tourists ==> offering 'Chinese Fast Food' (whatever that is), and with many advertising signs in Chinese language. Those businesses were packed with Chinese tourists who were spending their money.

On the whole, the Chinese tourists do spend less per head when compared to their Western counterpart. But there are an awful lot more Chinese tourists. So by lowering prices and selling more, the business owner can still adapt and be successful.

Although my business is not in Patong, but at the airport, I've experienced a similar change in guest demographics. So I've lowered my room rates and I have more customers. To return my overall profit level to that earned in previous years, I'm building more 'budget' guest rooms.

I've seen the same adaption at other hotels in this area - Airport Resort and Spa (previously upmarket Thai-style guest rooms and owned by the Pu Yai Bahn) has built an 8-storey block of budget rooms for these new types of travellers.

'Adapt to the change, or go out of business' - that byline applies to any business in any country in the world - basic business economics.

Probably one of the best if not the best post on this thread.

I'll offer a similar opinion that the goose that laid the golden egg is still alive and kicking and actually doing better than ever.

Tourism is at an all time high in Phuket. People allege that the new chinese tourist spends less than the western tourist but looking at the big picture there are so many more chinese that overall ( if you believe the TAT) the money flowing into the economy from Tourisim is also at an all time high.

The problem for us westerners is that western tourism is declining and the demand is no longer there to support all the local business that provide goods and services to the western orientated tourist ( and resident) . Those of us that remain end up paying more for, less choices, worse quality and poorer services. The flip side of that is that if your a chinese tourist then economies of scale are kicking in so you pay less, you have more choice, better quality and the best service.

Local business will either adapt or die. Recent history is a great case study on how local businesses were able to quickly adapt to the massive influx of Russians to phuket. A Russian tourist combining to phuket in 2007 had almost zero options but in 2012 and 2013 there was a huge infrustructure to support them.

The same will happen with the Chinese. Perhaps in a few years it will be easier to get dim sum in Bangla road that a cheeseburger. That may be bad for us westerners but the Chinese are gonna love it.

I would think that the local merchants wouldnt give a toss if they have to sell fish and chips or sharks fin soup so long as they make their profit.

As far as wealth creation goes I would also hazard a guess that at the very top of the pile it's the same people making money off the chinese as making money off the western tourist. To them it's just another income stream and when one income stream rises and another one declines then they must focus more of their resources on the rising (Chinese) income stream. It's just business.

Business that don't adapt will die. Money is still circulating and the people who are at the bottom of the pile getting a piece of the action may be changing but those at the top are still raking it in.

We can yell as loud as we like that the end is near, and maybe for our way of life it is, but the reality is that it's just the end of one business cycle and the beginning of another.

The corrupt officials will still get to wet their beaks from the new businesses so I doubt if they care if western Tourisim is dead so long as someone is paying the bills.

On the above point the greatest threat to the "shadow" economy in a place like phuket actually comes from corporatization of the economy. Central, big C, Makro, or any of the national chain business are pretty much immune to local graft . Try asking for protection money from KFC or you'll throw a rock through the window. The manager says sorry Its impossible for me to give cash as every penny is recorded. So go ahead and throw your rock. If a local tax official walks into a Starbucks and try's to shake them down, the manager just pointst to the POS system and says go ask Bangkok.

As more and more national chain businesses appear in Phuket then that will put serious pressure on businesses without the corporate anominity security blanket. I'm not sure what will happen on that front but it will be interesting to watch.

[NamKangMan]

Mahjong Parlors...Karaoke Spots? What's the general age and interests of the Chinese tourists? Put on your thinking caps guys and do things like approaching the tour companies to see what their clients want and make deals -- should work for restaurants and shops, maybe even the right kind of bar/karaoke parlor. Don't just sit and whine about selling less wine, so to speak. Adapt!!!

As I mentioned in a post 1 month back, on one of my rare visits to Patong, I saw many closed, failing and 'for rent'/for sale' businesses.

But I also saw a number of businesses who had successfully adapted to the new tourists ==> offering 'Chinese Fast Food' (whatever that is), and with many advertising signs in Chinese language. Those businesses were packed with Chinese tourists who were spending their money.

On the whole, the Chinese tourists do spend less per head when compared to their Western counterpart. But there are an awful lot more Chinese tourists. So by lowering prices and selling more, the business owner can still adapt and be successful.

Although my business is not in Patong, but at the airport, I've experienced a similar change in guest demographics. So I've lowered my room rates and I have more customers. To return my overall profit level to that earned in previous years, I'm building more 'budget' guest rooms.

I've seen the same adaption at other hotels in this area - Airport Resort and Spa (previously upmarket Thai-style guest rooms and owned by the Pu Yai Bahn) has built an 8-storey block of budget rooms for these new types of travellers.

'Adapt to the change, or go out of business' - that byline applies to any business in any country in the world - basic business economics.

Probably one of the best if not the best post on this thread.

I'll offer a similar opinion that the goose that laid the golden egg is still alive and kicking and actually doing better than ever.

Tourism is at an all time high in Phuket. People allegde that the new chinese tourist spends less than the western tourist but looking at the big picture there are so many more chinese that overall ( if you believe the TAT) the money flowing into the economy from Tourisim is also at an all time high.

The problem for us westerners is that western tourism is declining and the demand is no longer there to support all the local business that provide goods and services to the western orientated tourist ( and resident) . Those of us that remain end up paying more for, less choices, worse quality and poorer services. The flip side of that is that if your a chinese tourist then economies of scale are kicking in so you pay less, you have more choice, better quality and the best service.

Local business will either adapt or die. Recent history is a great case study on how local businesses were able to quickly adapt to the massive influx of Russians to phuket. A Russian tourist combining to phuket in 2007 had almost zero options but in 2012 and 2013 there was a huge infrustructure to support them.

The same will happen with the Chinese. Perhaps in a few years it will be easier to get dim sum in Bangla road that a cheeseburger. That may be bad for us westerners but the Chinese are gonna love it.

I would think that the local merchants wouldnt give a toss if they have to sell fish and chips or sharks fin soup so long as they make their profit.

As far as wealth creation goes I would also hazard a guess that at the very top of the pile it's the same people making money off the chinese as making money off the western tourist. To them it's just another income stream and when one income stream rises and another one declines then they must focus more of their resources on the rising (Chinese) income stream. It's just business.

Business that don't adapt will die. Money is still circulating and the people who are at the bottom of the pile getting a piece of the action may be changing but those at the top are still raking it in.

We can yell as loud as we like that the end is near, and maybe for our way of life it is, but the reality is that it's just the end of one business cycle and the beginning of another.

The corrupt officials will still get to wet their beaks from the new businesses so I doubt if they care if western Tourisim is dead so long as someone is paying the bills.

On the above point the greatest threat to the "shadow" economy in a place like phuket actually comes from corporatization of the economy. Central, big C, Makro, or any of the national chain business are pretty much immune to local graft . Try asking for protection money from KFC or you'll throw a rock through the window. The manager says sorry Its impossible for me to give cash as every penny is recorded. So go ahead and throw your rock. If a local tax official walks into a Starbucks and try's to shake them down, the manager just pointst to the POS system and says go ask Bangkok.

As more and more national chain businesses appear in Phuket then that will put serious pressure on businesses without the corporate anominity security blanket. I'm not sure what will happen on that front but it will be interesting to watch.

You raise some interesting points in your post. I agree with some, and disagree with others.

"Tourism is at an all time high in Phuket." - the number of tourists are up, but the number of baht is down. The OP clearly sets out the huge losses businesses are experiencing. What good is there having a high volume of tourists, if they do not spend?

"the money flowing into the economy from Tourisim is also at an all time high" - this is in total contradiction to the financials given in the OP. Remember, it's not so long ago the Chinese were called "zero baht tourists." What's changed since then?

"western tourism is declining and the demand is no longer there to support all the local business" - I agree, however, I personally knew of about five expats who have moved from Phuket to Pattaya, two of them had businesses here, then, I know about ten friends who no longer holiday on Phuket and now go to Pattaya. I remember when all of these people preferred Phuket to Pattaya, so why did they change? I know for a fact it wasn't due to hard economic times. Western tourists are still coming to Thailand, just avoiding Phuket in large numbers.

"Those of us that remain end up paying more for, less choices, worse quality and poorer services." - correct. I have used the "Sunday roast" example before. When I struggle to find a decent Sunday roast, or I have to travel far for one, I'll be gone as well. As you say, we may have to accept a "dim sum in Bangla road that a cheeseburger." However, I will not accept the loss of choice and variety and will move on.

"if your a chinese tourist then economies of scale are kicking in so you pay less" - this devalues Phuket as a brand. An example is a national air carrier versus a budget airline. Is this what will become of Phuket, a cheap holiday for package tourists? Not so long ago it was South East Asia's premium holiday destination. We are still paying those higher prices, but like you say, westerners are receiving less choice, variety and quality of product and services, and when that starts, it's very hard to turn around.

"Local business will either adapt or die." - let's be honest, most of the western local businesses sell food, beverage, accommodation and sex - or a mixture of these. Chinese tourists will not drink at a bar all night, and then pay a bar fine. The bars will hurt the most, and I predict many will close at the end of this "high season." Whether many owners remains on Phuket, or leave, we will have to wait and see.

As the Chinese travel in tour groups, they must have a large hotel, so, many of the smaller guest houses will also close.

The cafes and restaurants that may try to adapt and cater for the Chinese on their menus will have to compete with all the other Chinese restaurants, and like accommodation, you will need a large establishment to cater for tour groups, so you can expect small restaurants to close as well.

"A Russian tourist combining to phuket in 2007 had almost zero options but in 2012 and 2013 there was a huge infrastructure to support them." - true, but Russians eat similar foods, consume alcohol, and shag. All they really needed was some menus / terms and conditions / instructions translated and written down for them.

"I would think that the local merchants wouldnt give a toss if they have to sell fish and chips or sharks fin soup so long as they make their profit." - true, but the westerner was happy to pay 350 baht for his fish and chips, but the restaurant owner is now going to have to cook a lot more meals, for the same profits, as one western meal for a western customer. That's a lot more overheads expense, Eg. staff, electric, stock on hand, cleaning etc - not to mention the physical work.

"at the very top of the pile it's the same people making money off the chinese as making money off the western tourist" - true. Phuket is owned by about twelve wealthy Thai families. Most income would be in rents from small to large commercial premises. So, when a lot of places start closing, then maybe some of the people "at the top of the pile" might start to wonder why, however, they are that wealthy, and greedy, they will see a place sit vacant before lowering the rent to keep a tenant in.

"To them it's just another income stream" - no, it will replace the existing income stream.

"when one income stream rises and another one declines then they must focus more of their resources on the rising (Chinese) income stream." - in the past, Phuket has catered for many nationalities. There were bars for Brits, Germans, Scandi's, Australians, Americans etc. You start focusing on one target market, the Chinese, and you put all your eggs in one basket, it's very risking. Remember, the Chinese stock market recently wobbled.

"Business that don't adapt will die." - why bother adapting to Phuket's problems, which will never change? They may be best moving their operation to where the western market is now holidaying.

"Money is still circulating" - smaller amounts of money moving in smaller circles.

"people who are at the bottom of the pile getting a piece of the action may be changing" - what's changing for the people at the bottom of the pile?

"those at the top are still raking it in" - when rental income starts to decrease, they will not be raking in so much. It will be interesting if they then increase to rents on the surviving businesses to make up the short fall.

"We can yell as loud as we like that the end is near" - everyone here knows about Phuket's issues, and what needs to be fixed. The Thai military can not clean the place up, so, no point yelling. Phuket will not change, so the western tourists changed, and now go elsewhere.

"but the reality is that it's just the end of one business cycle and the beginning of another" - it's not as simple as that. Phuket had a huge segment of the western tourist market. You have to be doing something very wrong to lose such a large part of such a lucrative market. In my opinion, Phuket will suffer a similar fate to Nokia.

"The corrupt officials will still get to wet their beaks from the new businesses so I doubt if they care if western Tourisim is dead so long as someone is paying the bills." - many smaller establishments catering for westerners will close. There will be no more "tea money" from them once they are closed. Once again, it will be interesting if "tea money" is increased for the surviving businesses.

"the greatest threat to the "shadow" economy in a place like phuket actually comes from corporatization of the economy." - in my opinion, the greatest threat to the shadow economy on Phuket is the shadow economy on Phuket.

My understanding is, Simon's hotel caters to a niche market of tourist that requires staying near the airport for early morning flights, many of whom, I presume, spend very little of their holiday on Phuket.

[DTL2014]

my "fees" for late licence have gone up 400% since the army got in- is any of this money accountable? does it get paid into the government coffers..ridiculous licensing policy by people who don't have a clue..

it strikes me that "some group" is trying to make up the shortfall from loss of black market oil and human trafficking income..

Who is checking on price gouging? Should district office officials be allowed to open late night venues?who checks on their payments?in my country that is abuse of office - here that would not even occur to them..just a" poor me, government official don't get paid very much attitude" has to stop..

with absolute power ALL government departments got their fingers in the pie-Thailand you have become absolutely corrupted..morally bankrupt too

Why allow non economists to set the rules ? what do they know about running a country.

[Rimbuman]

1. got too greedy and priced yourselves out of the market, same happened in walking street Pattaya

2. as above - price fixing cartels not allowing bars to drop their prices as they want too using threats and intimidation

3. The Chinese don't do bars, they might walk around looking but spend FA

Greed is destroying these places and the same patterns can be seen in Bangkok and Pattaya, as western visitors decline you will typically see the same destructive business pratice of increasing prices instead of rescueing tourism and the bar scene with reduced realistic pricing, supermarkets 7/11 and familymart are a good guide and a silid stake in the ground - if they didn't exist this country would be in ruins

fair pricing and your business will boom again

Nooooo, they'll raise their pricing to make up for dried up revenue

[AJBangkok]

@NKM

I see you playing devils advocate but I don't see you really disagreeing. You were careful to say that my numbers were a total contradiction to what the OP claimed - (not you) . So For the record TAT released numbers saying tourist arrivals in 2015 were 29,8 million versus 24.8 million in 2014. Direct revenues from international tourism were THB 1.44 trillion in 2015 versus THB 1.15 trillion in 2014. ( note those are direct revenues , so money in the bank - not zero baht tourists)

We can all speculate that TAT is lying yada yada yada but those are probably the best numbers that anyone can get. They say tourism is up and the money generated by tourism is up. When you look at those numbers in % terms international tourist arrivals grew 20% and the the direct revenues grew 25% .

So with those kind of numbers it looks as if thai tourism is kicking butt. That goose is dropping golden eggs faster than the Thais can scoop them up. Unfortunately they're not dropping them in Bangla road or Patong from what we read in this thread. Nevertheless from those numbers tourism is probably the biggest growth industry in Thailand. ( next to growth of debt collection from golden eggless patong businessmen that is)

I'm not directing this at you NKM as I know you're an intelligent guy and you didn't make the claims in the first place. You just like to stir the pot - cause it's there and you can ? But I did want to reinforce my original post in that tourism as a business isn't dead in Phuket, it's just that the client demographic is changing fast and the new demographic is demanding a different type of holiday experience in terms of goods and services than the old western orientated service providers.

Businesses have to adapt meaning that businesses servicing western tourism must contract to a point where supply meets demand and new business must grow to meet the demand of the growing demographic.

As far as the quality tourist goes, they are SOL, the government wants money, they'll say anything to make you happy, but in the end they want the cash and they don't care whether it comes from a factory worker or a billionaire. Just give us the money.

[benalibina]

Quote KamalaRider: "One thing I'm opposed to is when people referring the sex trade here in Thailand as pedophilism, I have been here for soon 10 years and still haven't seen or heard about any underage women working in bars, not saying that it doesn't exists, but if majority of the "girls" are over 18, why referring the trade with "pedophile paradise".

Personally, I don't condemn the girls for working in the sex trade, nor their customers if the deal between them doesn't resort to violence or robbery".

A good point KR, and in my 10 years of being here I have only been told of one underage girl working in a bar.

When I first came here I was totally against the "sex tourism thing" and found it difficult to accept until I started to help a mate of mine out at his bar and got talking to some of the girls, and eventually got to know them relatively well, and believe it or not they are just like every other human being, with hopes, dreams and aspirations and I was amazed how most of them can shut out the paid sex aspect of their lives and focus on the money needed to support their families.

They also seem to have a different "outlook" with regards to sex, because to them it is just something they do, whereas other races/nationalities often connect the sex and love aspects and do not believe you can have one without the other.

I went from almost despising them when I first came here, to totally understanding where they are at and totally accepting of what they do, and a few I know I even admire for the way they are taking care of their families.

The last paragraph of your response....to be honest...its very naive and unknowledgeable for a person who comes across, to me at least, as very sensible. Hear no evil, see no evil. Your initial feeling of despise was more correct but for the wrong reasons, I suppose. It shows however that your heart is on the right place.

[sawadeeka]

I used to love Bangla Road so much because of the partying atmosphere, you go along the road and hear 80's music,modern music, live music people having real fun. Aussies, Brits or Scandinavians seemed to be having the time of their lives... and now.. chinese or russians just passing by with the serious looks on their faces, not going to any bars, not enjoying anything.. are fun times over now on Bangla? My soul felt so refreshed everytime i went to bangla in 2012 with all the westerners getting out of their system. Everything started going down since 2014.. Will the party dudes be back again sometime?

[Yahooka]

I used to love Bangla Road so much because of the partying atmosphere, you go along the road and hear 80's music,modern music, live music people having real fun. Aussies, Brits or Scandinavians seemed to be having the time of their lives... and now.. chinese or russians just passing by with the serious looks on their faces, not going to any bars, not enjoying anything.. are fun times over now on Bangla? My soul felt so refreshed everytime i went to bangla in 2012 with all the westerners getting out of their system. Everything started going down since 2014.. Will the party dudes be back again sometime?

You should have come there a decade earlier...........that was the beginning of the end of the really good times here.Most of the guys I knew then unforunately don`t come to Phuket anymore,most of us agreed that the fun times ended and the once great athmosphere changed for the worst in the years after the Tsunami.

[xylophone]

One way or another, many of the posters have pointed to the fact that the demographics changed, and Bangla Road/Patong didn't and I think that's true as I have also stated somewhere on this thread.

And there are those who think that Bangla (for example) should change and cater for the low-end/budget tourists, however it is not that simple, nor probably that wise.

This place should be the jewel of the Andaman with its beaches, islands, sightseeing, sea and culture, not to mention pretty good weather all year round, and as such should have aimed at attracting the wealthier tourists. And because of what it offers and what it is (or could have been) the price of land and buildings is accordingly high, as follows the norm elsewhere in the world.

Sure there would have been the likes of Bangla Road, however if that was smartened up a bit it could be seen to be somewhere to go for a drink and party atmosphere rather than a seedy rip-off.

But rather than improving the place to attract the wealthier tourists the opposite has happened and wealthier tourists will not go to places where there are shoddily built cheap condos, just beer bars, bogans, jet ski scams, poor infrastructure resulting in smells and sewerage, crime, corruption, poor service………the list could go on.

The greed and shortsightedness of the powers that run the place have ensured that it has become more of a slum than a high-end tourist attraction and the type of tourist that we are now getting is only to be expected in a place like this.

It is quite probable that the horse has bolted, because it will be almost impossible for landlords or business owners to be able to get good returns on row upon row of rice and noodle shops in Bangla, for example, and remember this is prime real estate and the world doesn't work like that.

What we are seeing is the result of many years of greed and neglect and no planning as to what potentially one of the best islands in Southeast Asia should look like and aspire to be.

One could argue that it is the typical Thai mentality with greed being the driving factor and with absolutely no idea of consequence.

And the future……………IMO Bangla will soldier on, attracting the partygoers and nightlife lovers; many bars will close and landlords will be offering better deals to keep them open, because if they don't then they too will suffer; other businesses will close, not only in Bangla, but in close proximity as is already happening, but in the end it will still be catering for the low-end tourist and it may well just stay a low-end tourist area ad infinitum, until in the end it becomes the slum of the Andaman, complete with high crime statistics and all that goes with it.

[inaktive]

@NKM

I see you playing devils advocate but I don't see you really disagreeing. You were careful to say that my numbers were a total contradiction to what the OP claimed - (not you) . So For the record TAT released numbers saying tourist arrivals in 2015 were 29,8 million versus 24.8 million in 2014. Direct revenues from international tourism were THB 1.44 trillion in 2015 versus THB 1.15 trillion in 2014. ( note those are direct revenues , so money in the bank - not zero baht tourists)

We can all speculate that TAT is lying yada yada yada but those are probably the best numbers that anyone can get. They say tourism is up and the money generated by tourism is up. When you look at those numbers in % terms international tourist arrivals grew 20% and the the direct revenues grew 25% .

What many do not see in that Numbers is that they count a package tour at full list value and a solo traveler at the price of the Hotel he books. they dont know where you eat, where you drink, what taxis you use or where you get a massage and what money you send . So counting like that a package tourist is preferable for the stats even if he only spends half or less that a solo traveler in the country

[DrDave]

<snip>

And the future……………IMO Bangla will soldier on, attracting the partygoers and nightlife lovers; many bars will close and landlords will be offering better deals to keep them open, because if they don't then they too will suffer; other businesses will close, not only in Bangla, but in close proximity as is already happening, but in the end it will still be catering for the low-end tourist and it may well just stay a low-end tourist area ad infinitum, until in the end it becomes the slum of the Andaman, complete with high crime statistics and all that goes with it.

I think that what you've outlined is the most likely scenario.

The other scenario would be the total re-development of Bangla and the Beach road. I don't know how many land owners are involved in the Bangla area, but I suspect that its not more than a few. We know that re-development is possible, as evidenced by the large plot at the intersection of Sawatdirak and Beach roads, where all of the shops, bars and hotels have been razed to make way for something new.

In order for re-development to work, the goals of the government officials and project stakeholders must be aligned, and I think this is the stumbling block. As another poster mentioned, a large portion of Phuket is run by criminals for the benefit of criminals with no consideration for the long-term viability or sustainability of the tourism market.

Until the local government, land owners and other stakeholders get on the same page in terms of a long-term plan for sustainable tourism, I'm afraid that Patong will be just another seedy, low-end beach destination attracting successively lower-end tourists each year, just as Xylophone indicated above.

[simon43]

And maybe it will be a good idea for some of you to join a Thai tourgroup to Korea, Japan or Singapore. Than you will realize that Asians have a totally different idea about spending a holiday's than Westerners.

Agreed.

One problem that I've found with my Chinese customers is that it is quite difficult to sell them 'value-adds', because - as has been commented many times - many Chinese are on all-in package tours, with restaurant, souvenirs and entertainment already included in their tour package. So it is hard to sell them anything!

My business sales did improve a touch after I priced everything in RMB Yuan, and I accept Chinese currency for any payments for room, food, drinks etc.

[spidermike007]

Mahjong Parlors...Karaoke Spots? What's the general age and interests of the Chinese tourists? Put on your thinking caps guys and do things like approaching the tour companies to see what their clients want and make deals -- should work for restaurants and shops, maybe even the right kind of bar/karaoke parlor. Don't just sit and whine about selling less wine, so to speak. Adapt!!!

As I mentioned in a post 1 month back, on one of my rare visits to Patong, I saw many closed, failing and 'for rent'/for sale' businesses.

But I also saw a number of businesses who had successfully adapted to the new tourists ==> offering 'Chinese Fast Food' (whatever that is), and with many advertising signs in Chinese language. Those businesses were packed with Chinese tourists who were spending their money.

On the whole, the Chinese tourists do spend less per head when compared to their Western counterpart. But there are an awful lot more Chinese tourists. So by lowering prices and selling more, the business owner can still adapt and be successful.

Although my business is not in Patong, but at the airport, I've experienced a similar change in guest demographics. So I've lowered my room rates and I have more customers. To return my overall profit level to that earned in previous years, I'm building more 'budget' guest rooms.

I've seen the same adaption at other hotels in this area - Airport Resort and Spa (previously upmarket Thai-style guest rooms and owned by the Pu Yai Bahn) has built an 8-storey block of budget rooms for these new types of travellers.

'Adapt to the change, or go out of business' - that byline applies to any business in any country in the world - basic business economics.

Probably one of the best if not the best post on this thread.

I'll offer a similar opinion that the goose that laid the golden egg is still alive and kicking and actually doing better than ever.

Tourism is at an all time high in Phuket. People allegde that the new chinese tourist spends less than the western tourist but looking at the big picture there are so many more chinese that overall ( if you believe the TAT) the money flowing into the economy from Tourisim is also at an all time high.

The problem for us westerners is that western tourism is declining and the demand is no longer there to support all the local business that provide goods and services to the western orientated tourist ( and resident) . Those of us that remain end up paying more for, less choices, worse quality and poorer services. The flip side of that is that if your a chinese tourist then economies of scale are kicking in so you pay less, you have more choice, better quality and the best service.

Local business will either adapt or die. Recent history is a great case study on how local businesses were able to quickly adapt to the massive influx of Russians to phuket. A Russian tourist combining to phuket in 2007 had almost zero options but in 2012 and 2013 there was a huge infrustructure to support them.

The same will happen with the Chinese. Perhaps in a few years it will be easier to get dim sum in Bangla road that a cheeseburger. That may be bad for us westerners but the Chinese are gonna love it.

I would think that the local merchants wouldnt give a toss if they have to sell fish and chips or sharks fin soup so long as they make their profit.

As far as wealth creation goes I would also hazard a guess that at the very top of the pile it's the same people making money off the chinese as making money off the western tourist. To them it's just another income stream and when one income stream rises and another one declines then they must focus more of their resources on the rising (Chinese) income stream. It's just business.

Business that don't adapt will die. Money is still circulating and the people who are at the bottom of the pile getting a piece of the action may be changing but those at the top are still raking it in.

We can yell as loud as we like that the end is near, and maybe for our way of life it is, but the reality is that it's just the end of one business cycle and the beginning of another.

The corrupt officials will still get to wet their beaks from the new businesses so I doubt if they care if western Tourisim is dead so long as someone is paying the bills.

On the above point the greatest threat to the "shadow" economy in a place like phuket actually comes from corporatization of the economy. Central, big C, Makro, or any of the national chain business are pretty much immune to local graft . Try asking for protection money from KFC or you'll throw a rock through the window. The manager says sorry Its impossible for me to give cash as every penny is recorded. So go ahead and throw your rock. If a local tax official walks into a Starbucks and try's to shake them down, the manager just pointst to the POS system and says go ask Bangkok.

As more and more national chain businesses appear in Phuket then that will put serious pressure on businesses without the corporate anominity security blanket. I'm not sure what will happen on that front but it will be interesting to watch.

Some of those changes may end up taking place eventually, but as far as I am concerned it is still harder to find a good Chinese meal here in Thailand, than just about any other country I have ever been to. Bangkok included, unless you are in Chinatown. And many Chinese restaurants I have been to are just Thai food made to sound Chinese on the menu. Adapt? Have not seen much of that yet.

[LivinginKata]

<snip>

My business sales did improve a touch after I priced everything in RMB Yuan, and I accept Chinese currency for any payments for room, food, drinks etc.

Smart move Simon ...

[dageurreotype]

Quote KamalaRider: "One thing I'm opposed to is when people referring the sex trade here in Thailand as pedophilism, I have been here for soon 10 years and still haven't seen or heard about any underage women working in bars, not saying that it doesn't exists, but if majority of the "girls" are over 18, why referring the trade with "pedophile paradise".

Personally, I don't condemn the girls for working in the sex trade, nor their customers if the deal between them doesn't resort to violence or robbery".

A good point KR, and in my 10 years of being here I have only been told of one underage girl working in a bar.

When I first came here I was totally against the "sex tourism thing" and found it difficult to accept until I started to help a mate of mine out at his bar and got talking to some of the girls, and eventually got to know them relatively well, and believe it or not they are just like every other human being, with hopes, dreams and aspirations and I was amazed how most of them can shut out the paid sex aspect of their lives and focus on the money needed to support their families.

They also seem to have a different "outlook" with regards to sex, because to them it is just something they do, whereas other races/nationalities often connect the sex and love aspects and do not believe you can have one without the other.

I went from almost despising them when I first came here, to totally understanding where they are at and totally accepting of what they do, and a few I know I even admire for the way they are taking care of their families.

The last paragraph of your response....to be honest...its very naive and unknowledgeable for a person who comes across, to me at least, as very sensible. Hear no evil, see no evil. Your initial feeling of despise was more correct but for the wrong reasons, I suppose. It shows however that your heart is on the right place.

I'm somewhat taken aback by xylophone saying he despised the sex workers when first here? (Although, given his posts, he appears to have overcome that).

I for one never 'despised' those uneducated upcountry girls, only the knuckle dragging muppets who continued and are continuing to exploit their lack of education/greed. 'Despised'? I'm appalled!

[vr6onlysiam]

Back to 1997 soon.

[soalbundy]

Quote KamalaRider: "One thing I'm opposed to is when people referring the sex trade here in Thailand as pedophilism, I have been here for soon 10 years and still haven't seen or heard about any underage women working in bars, not saying that it doesn't exists, but if majority of the "girls" are over 18, why referring the trade with "pedophile paradise".

Personally, I don't condemn the girls for working in the sex trade, nor their customers if the deal between them doesn't resort to violence or robbery".

A good point KR, and in my 10 years of being here I have only been told of one underage girl working in a bar.

When I first came here I was totally against the "sex tourism thing" and found it difficult to accept until I started to help a mate of mine out at his bar and got talking to some of the girls, and eventually got to know them relatively well, and believe it or not they are just like every other human being, with hopes, dreams and aspirations and I was amazed how most of them can shut out the paid sex aspect of their lives and focus on the money needed to support their families.

They also seem to have a different "outlook" with regards to sex, because to them it is just something they do, whereas other races/nationalities often connect the sex and love aspects and do not believe you can have one without the other.

I went from almost despising them when I first came here, to totally understanding where they are at and totally accepting of what they do, and a few I know I even admire for the way they are taking care of their families.

The last paragraph of your response....to be honest...its very naive and unknowledgeable for a person who comes across, to me at least, as very sensible. Hear no evil, see no evil. Your initial feeling of despise was more correct but for the wrong reasons, I suppose. It shows however that your heart is on the right place.

I'm somewhat taken aback by xylophone saying he despised the sex workers when first here? (Although, given his posts, he appears to have overcome that).

I for one never 'despised' those uneducated upcountry girls, only the knuckle dragging muppets who continued and are continuing to exploit their lack of education/greed. 'Despised'? I'm appalled!

You obviously came to Thailand with your halo already glowing, lesser mortals have to learn humility before they even get theirs

[dageurreotype]

Quote KamalaRider: "One thing I'm opposed to is when people referring the sex trade here in Thailand as pedophilism, I have been here for soon 10 years and still haven't seen or heard about any underage women working in bars, not saying that it doesn't exists, but if majority of the "girls" are over 18, why referring the trade with "pedophile paradise".

Personally, I don't condemn the girls for working in the sex trade, nor their customers if the deal between them doesn't resort to violence or robbery".

A good point KR, and in my 10 years of being here I have only been told of one underage girl working in a bar.

When I first came here I was totally against the "sex tourism thing" and found it difficult to accept until I started to help a mate of mine out at his bar and got talking to some of the girls, and eventually got to know them relatively well, and believe it or not they are just like every other human being, with hopes, dreams and aspirations and I was amazed how most of them can shut out the paid sex aspect of their lives and focus on the money needed to support their families.

They also seem to have a different "outlook" with regards to sex, because to them it is just something they do, whereas other races/nationalities often connect the sex and love aspects and do not believe you can have one without the other.

I went from almost despising them when I first came here, to totally understanding where they are at and totally accepting of what they do, and a few I know I even admire for the way they are taking care of their families.

The last paragraph of your response....to be honest...its very naive and unknowledgeable for a person who comes across, to me at least, as very sensible. Hear no evil, see no evil. Your initial feeling of despise was more correct but for the wrong reasons, I suppose. It shows however that your heart is on the right place.

I'm somewhat taken aback by xylophone saying he despised the sex workers when first here? (Although, given his posts, he appears to have overcome that).

I for one never 'despised' those uneducated upcountry girls, only the knuckle dragging muppets who continued and are continuing to exploit their lack of education/greed. 'Despised'? I'm appalled!

You obviously came to Thailand with your halo already glowing, lesser mortals have to learn humility before they even get theirs

Re read my post. I had no illusions as to how the sex trade dominates here. It was simply of no interest to me at all, as it does you.

BTW, Do not presume to lecture ME on humility. I've seen your junta fanboy/monger posts. Look up the word 'morality'. It appears to be anathema to you. Now off you and your ilk go. Back to fondling your child brides/tarte de nuit

[F4UCorsair]

Maybe the quality of the tourists has moved up a little and they want more than booze, pole dancing and cheap sex??

Just a thought.

[xylophone]

Quote KamalaRider: "One thing I'm opposed to is when people referring the sex trade here in Thailand as pedophilism, I have been here for soon 10 years and still haven't seen or heard about any underage women working in bars, not saying that it doesn't exists, but if majority of the "girls" are over 18, why referring the trade with "pedophile paradise".

Personally, I don't condemn the girls for working in the sex trade, nor their customers if the deal between them doesn't resort to violence or robbery".

A good point KR, and in my 10 years of being here I have only been told of one underage girl working in a bar.

When I first came here I was totally against the "sex tourism thing" and found it difficult to accept until I started to help a mate of mine out at his bar and got talking to some of the girls, and eventually got to know them relatively well, and believe it or not they are just like every other human being, with hopes, dreams and aspirations and I was amazed how most of them can shut out the paid sex aspect of their lives and focus on the money needed to support their families.

They also seem to have a different "outlook" with regards to sex, because to them it is just something they do, whereas other races/nationalities often connect the sex and love aspects and do not believe you can have one without the other.

I went from almost despising them when I first came here, to totally understanding where they are at and totally accepting of what they do, and a few I know I even admire for the way they are taking care of their families.

The last paragraph of your response....to be honest...its very naive and unknowledgeable for a person who comes across, to me at least, as very sensible. Hear no evil, see no evil. Your initial feeling of despise was more correct but for the wrong reasons, I suppose. It shows however that your heart is on the right place.

Don't agree with your comments re "naive and unknowledgeable" Benalibina and with my background I can't really see them applying, however I do respect your right to post your opinion, after all that's what makes TV so interesting. However thanks for the compliments also contained in your post

As for using the words "almost despising them"..........well that was probably the wrong choice of words and too strong for what I was trying to convey, let's say perhaps "disliked what they did"; until of course I was able to better understand them and their reasons.

[grumpyoldman]

Back to 1997 soon.

The crash year, 55thb to the dollar, ahh the good old days !

[LivinginKata]

Back to 1997 soon.

The crash year, 55thb to the dollar, ahh the good old days !

and 90 baht to the Uk pound ... aaah

[Old Croc]

[PREM-R]

I used to love Bangla Road so much because of the partying atmosphere, you go along the road and hear 80's music,modern music, live music people having real fun. Aussies, Brits or Scandinavians seemed to be having the time of their lives... and now.. chinese or russians just passing by with the serious looks on their faces, not going to any bars, not enjoying anything.. are fun times over now on Bangla? My soul felt so refreshed everytime i went to bangla in 2012 with all the westerners getting out of their system. Everything started going down since 2014.. Will the party dudes be back again sometime?

You should have come there a decade earlier...........that was the beginning of the end of the really good times here.Most of the guys I knew then unforunately don`t come to Phuket anymore,most of us agreed that the fun times ended and the once great athmosphere changed for the worst in the years after the Tsunami.

"You should have come there a decade earlier.."

Yes, your post brought back memories of the late 90's early 2000's. Start off the evening in Soi Dong Tan at the 'Scoot Bar', move on to Bangla rd, a very small 'hole in the wall' bar, opposite the Australian Bar, for a few more and then on to the 'Tai Pan' or 'Shark Club'. Many times I came out of the Shark Club and it was already tomorrow, across the road to the 24 hour international restaurant for breakfast then back to Patong Bungalows with a young lady taking part in a 'compensated dating scheme' for a 'bit of what you fancy' then sleep until 2-3 pm. Great Fun. How did that song go.... "Those were the days my friend, we thought they'd never end....."

[NamKangMan]

@NKM

I see you playing devils advocate but I don't see you really disagreeing. You were careful to say that my numbers were a total contradiction to what the OP claimed - (not you) . So For the record TAT released numbers saying tourist arrivals in 2015 were 29,8 million versus 24.8 million in 2014. Direct revenues from international tourism were THB 1.44 trillion in 2015 versus THB 1.15 trillion in 2014. ( note those are direct revenues , so money in the bank - not zero baht tourists)

We can all speculate that TAT is lying yada yada yada but those are probably the best numbers that anyone can get. They say tourism is up and the money generated by tourism is up. When you look at those numbers in % terms international tourist arrivals grew 20% and the the direct revenues grew 25% .

So with those kind of numbers it looks as if thai tourism is kicking butt. That goose is dropping golden eggs faster than the Thais can scoop them up. Unfortunately they're not dropping them in Bangla road or Patong from what we read in this thread. Nevertheless from those numbers tourism is probably the biggest growth industry in Thailand. ( next to growth of debt collection from golden eggless patong businessmen that is)

I'm not directing this at you NKM as I know you're an intelligent guy and you didn't make the claims in the first place. You just like to stir the pot - cause it's there and you can ? But I did want to reinforce my original post in that tourism as a business isn't dead in Phuket, it's just that the client demographic is changing fast and the new demographic is demanding a different type of holiday experience in terms of goods and services than the old western orientated service providers.

Businesses have to adapt meaning that businesses servicing western tourism must contract to a point where supply meets demand and new business must grow to meet the demand of the growing demographic.

As far as the quality tourist goes, they are SOL, the government wants money, they'll say anything to make you happy, but in the end they want the cash and they don't care whether it comes from a factory worker or a billionaire. Just give us the money.

"it's just that the client demographic is changing fast" - so, what has caused a huge segment of the western tourist market to abandon Phuket? What's stopping the Chinese to eventually abandon Phuket as well? Then, who is there to be the next market?

"the government wants money, they'll say anything to make you happy" - including falsifying tourist arrival figures and revenues. I know I definitely get counted 4 times a: year and possibly 8 times a year because they have been know to count outgoing "tourists" as well.

"Unfortunately they're not dropping them in Bangla road or Patong from what we read in this thread" - the money is now going into the hands of fewer people, which means it doesn't get spread around a lot, which isn't great for the local economy.

"I know you're an intelligent guy" - I completely agree.