Confusion and Anger at Pattaya Bridge Club Raid

[Jingthing]

Lawyers are examining those matters and many more.

i like what you had to say here. So I tried with my limited search skills to find out more about what you stated.

But for the life of me my searchs came up empty.Perhaps it isnot on the internet yet.

If it is on the internet could you please tell me where so I can read all about it.

All I can find is the cases against the bridge players cannot find where they dropped the charges.

your help in pointing me in the right direction would greatly be appreciated.

I will give you an advanced thank you for assisting me with this.

http://www.wmcactionnews5.com/story/31137089/western-retirees-at-thai-resort-busted-for-playing-bridge

As well, I am one of the bridge players. I attended the police station, along with all other players on Sun/Mon, to receive an apology. We will be refunded the 5,000b and have passports returned when the court paperwork is undone.

Great! It would have been better if you said so before. But better late than never. Good luck with your scrape with the law.

[spidermike007]

...a group of foreigners caught playing a card game with unauthorized playing cards, you like it or not but this is the law....

Again, an incorrect statement. Bridge is not against Thai law. There is an exception. So the police were wrong, and an apology is in order.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/Playing-bridge-has-special-exemption-under-Thai-la-30278706.html

nay. i said playing bridge (or any card game) with unauthorized playing cards which is not legal.

Since bridge is almost always played in leagues, and as a group game, you are nearly always going to have more than two decks of cards on hand. I assume that is why the special exception. So, your dogma and absolute principals do not apply here. Sorry to disappoint. It is LEGAL in Thailand to play bridge! Period. As long as there is no gambling taking place. There was nothing to point toward that happening, and even the cops admitted that. So, strike one on the part of the lowly cops. Their mistake.

[Briggsy]

Good luck with getting that 5000 Baht back. If you do, count it and check the notes carefully.

[balo]

Just inform us when you get your 5000 baht back , if it's this week , next week or next year .

[brewsterbudgen]

Just inform us when you get your 5000 baht back , if it's this week , next week or next year .

If it was official bail, it will be returned.

[p_brownstone]

...a group of foreigners caught playing a card game with unauthorized playing cards, you like it or not but this is the law....

Again, an incorrect statement. Bridge is not against Thai law. There is an exception. So the police were wrong, and an apology is in order.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/Playing-bridge-has-special-exemption-under-Thai-la-30278706.html

nay. i said playing bridge (or any card game) with unauthorized playing cards which is not legal.

Since bridge is almost always played in leagues, and as a group game, you are nearly always going to have more than two decks of cards on hand. I assume that is why the special exception. So, your dogma and absolute principals do not apply here. Sorry to disappoint. It is LEGAL in Thailand to play bridge! Period. As long as there is no gambling taking place. There was nothing to point toward that happening, and even the cops admitted that. So, strike one on the part of the lowly cops. Their mistake.

It's illegal to play ANY card game in Thailand using playing cards which do not have an Excise sticker on the pack - signifying that Excise Duty has been paid.

Just as Bar owners can be arrested if they serve alcohol from bottles which do not have an Excise sticker.

This, plus the "more than 120 Cards" rule, is what the Police are using as a reason for their actions.

Sounds petty on their part certainly but they are correct as far as the letter of the law goes.

Patrick

[spidermike007]

nay. i said playing bridge (or any card game) with unauthorized playing cards which is not legal.

Since bridge is almost always played in leagues, and as a group game, you are nearly always going to have more than two decks of cards on hand. I assume that is why the special exception. So, your dogma and absolute principals do not apply here. Sorry to disappoint. It is LEGAL in Thailand to play bridge! Period. As long as there is no gambling taking place. There was nothing to point toward that happening, and even the cops admitted that. So, strike one on the part of the lowly cops. Their mistake.

It's illegal to play ANY card game in Thailand using playing cards which do not have an Excise sticker on the pack - signifying that Excise Duty has been paid.

Just as Bar owners can be arrested if they serve alcohol from bottles which do not have an Excise sticker.

This, plus the "more than 120 Cards" rule, is what the Police are using as a reason for their actions.

Sounds petty on their part certainly but they are correct as far as the letter of the law goes.

Patrick

AGAIN, incorrect information. Bridge has a special dispensation in Thailand. There is a special exemption, since it is considered a sport, and not gambling or cards. Therefore, the ridiculous law about 120 cards does not apply to bridge. It is meant to prevent gambling. The police were wrong. Plain and simply wrong. They were directed by the military in this case, and the military made a huge blunder. Rather than behave as real men would, they insisted on following it through, after confirming no gambling was taking place. Now, the BBC, ABC news, and countless other news outlets all over the world are making fun of Thailand, and the country has additional egg all over it's face, due to absolute stupidity and ignorance on the part of the authorities. This one went way, way over the line. As has happened many, many times in the past, Thailand is now the laughing stock of the planet, once again.

The card players' plight was eased after the president of the Contract Bridge League of Thailand, Chodchoy Sophonpanich — a civic activist who is a member of Thailand's most prominent banking family — went to Pattaya on Thursday morning to advise police that bridge was treated under the law as a sport rather than gambling. "Police know that bridge is a sport because a similar case happened before, but this time it was military and district officials who initiated the raid and they probably didn't know," said Chaiyut Assanaiyarat, the bridge league's manager.

http://abcnews.go.com/Weird/wireStory/western-retirees-thai-resort-busted-playing-bridge-36707588

[novanova]

Posted on a bridge site:

Chodchoy Soponpanich, president of the Contract Bridge League of Thailand (CBLT) and staff held a meeting with the Interior Ministry and the matter appears to be resolved.

A message from a representative of the CBLT to Gianarrigo Rona [President of the World Bridge Federation] follows:

I have just returned (with the President of CBLT and staff) from a meeting with the Interior Ministry regarding our Gambling laws and the regulations of the National Sports Authority (NSA) and the matter has been resolved that for the time being all the players/groups contact CBLT and let us know the regular schedule of play and venue so that CBLT will produce a letter that will be sent to the local authorities in each vicinity…

In the meantime, they are helping us draft a letter to the NSA to include in the regulations that CBLT will be able to give permission to all our members/clubs/schools/ universities etc. to play for the promotion and practice of the sport, bridge. This process will take about a couple of months. Once that regulation is formal, we will be automatically be “out” of the gambling law…. (and we will be teaching bridge to the legal department of the Ministry !!)

[spidermike007]

This act can be described as:

utterly poor judgment on the part of the police and the military.

an absolute lack of grace and dignity.

an absolute inability to wear ones power lightly, or the utter refusal to do so, under any circumstances.

an astonishing lack of vision toward the future.

utter stupidity and foolishness.

men behaving like children.

behaving in a rash and overzealous fashion, and once the realization has been made that a great blunder has been made, instead of backing down with dignity, overreacting once again, and overplaying one's hand to the utmost.

sabotage of the western tourism industry, and real ill will toward the ex-pat community.

a new low for the RCD (the revenue collection department, aka the RTP).

a new low for the military.

To make up for this historic blunder, all members of the bridge club should be offered a sincere, heartfelt apology by each policeman involved in the raid, and a special apology from both the police captain, and the PM. And they should all be given a special five year, multiple entry visa, at no charge. That would make a statement of humility, and would show some sympathy, and remorse. Anything to the contrary is just based on arrogance, and serves to further alienate the ex-pat and the western tourism community, who are already choosing destinations that serve as an alternative to Thailand, due to the continued foolishness of the authorities here.

It is time for the authorities to acknowledge they made a mistake, and to state that bridge is a legal game in Thailand, and that the legal exemption for bridge that was created years ago, still applies, as it always has, and they just blew it.

[elgordo38]

The really sad part is that most Thai's can hop on a motorbike and in 10 minutes be at a card game with money laying on the table. It would not be a high profile bust so its left alone and if the "raid insurance" has been paid of to date it continuous indefinitely. My g/f sister has this disease.

[nontabury]

The really sad part is that most Thai's can hop on a motorbike and in 10 minutes be at a card game with money laying on the table. It would not be a high profile bust so its left alone and if the "raid insurance" has been paid of to date it continuous indefinitely. My g/f sister has this disease.

There is a card gambling venue within 1k from where 1 live, owed and organized by a serving police,is this the only one in the area,let alone the country,I doubt it.

[Briggsy]

Where I used to live in Bangkok, the police operated a betting shop (with full Premier League betting slips!) on a big soi. It did a roaring trade.

[novanova]

Passports have been returned

The 5,000b bail has been refunded, in cash.

All charges against the group of players have been dropped

[brewsterbudgen]

Passports have been returned

The 5,000b bail has been refunded, in cash.

All charges against the group of players have been dropped

The new thread now running suggests otherwise!

[Rimmer]

Off topic and probably libellous post has been removed also replies, did you not read the forum rules when you signed up?

[berybert]

- and all those that were mistreated in this very obvious misunerstanding presented with flowers publicly at the Pattaya police station

Would you really show up to a flower and apology ceremony ?

I'd send one person to throw the flowers in the bin.

[impulse]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems the raid was made after a complaint of illegal gambling. Seems pretty reasonable that they would act on such a complaint and at least check things out.

Finding no money changing hands, hence no illegal gambling, the folks doing the raiding salvaged their day by filing charges based on a customs/duty violation when they found a quantity of cards (>120) that did not have the required tax stamp affixed. That doesn't seem too far afield from cops back home raiding a suspected drug den and upon finding no drugs, saving the day by arresting someone in violation of a warrant for unpaid parking tickets, or for obstructing officers in carrying out the raid when someone simply mouths off at them.

With sanity prevailing, all charges have been dropped and passports and bail money have been returned in hopes this fiasco loses traction in the media and the blogosphere.

Dozens of foreign visitors now have an amazing story to tell their grandkids. Bridge will continue to be a popular (and legal) pastime with Thais and foreigners alike. Maybe even more popular now that it's been in the news so much.

[brewsterbudgen]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems the raid was made after a complaint of illegal gambling. Seems pretty reasonable that they would act on such a complaint and at least check things out.

Finding no money changing hands, hence no illegal gambling, the folks doing the raiding salvaged their day by filing charges based on a customs/duty violation when they found a quantity of cards (>120) that did not have the required tax stamp affixed. That doesn't seem too far afield from cops back home raiding a suspected drug den and upon finding no drugs, saving the day by arresting someone in violation of a warrant for unpaid parking tickets, or for obstructing officers in carrying out the raid when someone simply mouths off at them.

With sanity prevailing, all charges have been dropped and passports and bail money have been returned in hopes this fiasco loses traction in the media and the blogosphere.

Dozens of foreign visitors now have an amazing story to tell their grandkids. Bridge will continue to be a popular (and legal) pastime with Thais and foreigners alike. Maybe even more popular now that it's been in the news so much.

But charges haven't been dropped.

[impulse]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems the raid was made after a complaint of illegal gambling. Seems pretty reasonable that they would act on such a complaint and at least check things out.

Finding no money changing hands, hence no illegal gambling, the folks doing the raiding salvaged their day by filing charges based on a customs/duty violation when they found a quantity of cards (>120) that did not have the required tax stamp affixed. That doesn't seem too far afield from cops back home raiding a suspected drug den and upon finding no drugs, saving the day by arresting someone in violation of a warrant for unpaid parking tickets, or for obstructing officers in carrying out the raid when someone simply mouths off at them.

With sanity prevailing, all charges have been dropped and passports and bail money have been returned in hopes this fiasco loses traction in the media and the blogosphere.

Dozens of foreign visitors now have an amazing story to tell their grandkids. Bridge will continue to be a popular (and legal) pastime with Thais and foreigners alike. Maybe even more popular now that it's been in the news so much.

But charges haven't been dropped.

Oooh. The thick plottens. I thought it was time to stick a fork in it. Apparently, I got it wrong. It happens. My bad.

[novanova]

The charges haven;t been dropped because they CAN'T be dropped.

There must be a court hearing and, after the passports have been returned, you can bet that the prosecutor will be dropping this hot potato (the gambling charges) as fast as he can. He will want nothing to do with it because:

- Bridge is legal in Thaialnd

- There WAS NO GAMBLING and has been none in the last 22 years the Pattaya Bridge Club has been operating.

To save face, DOPA is pressing ahead with trivial violations... there are many grounds for challenging what they assert and we will see what happens.

[cumgranosalum]

The charges haven;t been dropped because they CAN'T be dropped.

There must be a court hearing and, after the passports have been returned, you can bet that the prosecutor will be dropping this hot potato (the gambling charges) as fast as he can. He will want nothing to do with it because:

- Bridge is legal in Thaialnd

- There WAS NO GAMBLING and has been none in the last 22 years the Pattaya Bridge Club has been operating.

To save face, DOPA is pressing ahead with trivial violations... there are many grounds for challenging what they assert and we will see what happens.

So the police shouldn't have told people they matter wasn't going to be pursued?

[brewsterbudgen]

The charges haven;t been dropped because they CAN'T be dropped.

There must be a court hearing and, after the passports have been returned, you can bet that the prosecutor will be dropping this hot potato (the gambling charges) as fast as he can. He will want nothing to do with it because:

- Bridge is legal in Thaialnd

- There WAS NO GAMBLING and has been none in the last 22 years the Pattaya Bridge Club has been operating.

To save face, DOPA is pressing ahead with trivial violations... there are many grounds for challenging what they assert and we will see what happens.

So the police shouldn't have told people they matter wasn't going to be pursued?

It wasn't a decision to be made by the police.

[cumgranosalum]

The charges haven;t been dropped because they CAN'T be dropped.

There must be a court hearing and, after the passports have been returned, you can bet that the prosecutor will be dropping this hot potato (the gambling charges) as fast as he can. He will want nothing to do with it because:

- Bridge is legal in Thaialnd

- There WAS NO GAMBLING and has been none in the last 22 years the Pattaya Bridge Club has been operating.

To save face, DOPA is pressing ahead with trivial violations... there are many grounds for challenging what they assert and we will see what happens.

So the police shouldn't have told people they matter wasn't going to be pursued?

It wasn't a decision to be made by the police.

It was said to those arrested.........by the police or who else? The police seem frequently to pass judgment as well as execute the law in Thailand.

[Bridger]

An APPEAL for RATIONAL THINKING in the bridge world .

Although I am English, I volunteered a decade ago to teach bridge to children in French schools. 11 to 15 year olds. France went on to win most of the medals at the last European youth championships in Istanbul. In Polish schools, bridge has for many years been given almost equal status as mathematics. Unsurprisingly, Poland recently won the Bermuda Bowl. Equally remarkable is the fact that Bali was awarded the bridge World Championships in 2013 - just twenty years on from when Indonesia started encouraging bridge in educational establishments.

Could such miracles happen round the corner here in Thailand? That was the question I asked myself when I saw that the Asean Youth Teams Bridge Championships were to be held in Bangkok last April. My answer today is still "YES". But we must all tread very carefully.

With the invaluable help of the Thai Bridge Federation I formed a club incorporating a bridge school. For adults and children alike. On delightful Koh Samui in fact. I am not afraid to reveal the location because I am proud of our bridge project and have the support of the local Thai authorities. Comply with their regulations and there are no problems.

Thai children are not only enthusiatic about the game, but are generally very disciplined. They also seem to get more encouragement from their parents than many in Europe. If bridge does indeed become an Olympic sport, Thailand has the potential to challenge one day for the medals. The stakes are that high. And this is make or break time. Ill-informed bloggers should therefore think twice before fanning the flames of an already delicate situation.

The CULTURE DIVIDE - two examples: When an 11 year old thai boy had (very quickly) mastered the art of bidding and finessing, with the support of our members and the parents he was then allowed to come and watch during club tournaments. Even playing the dummy's cards. He was thus able to learn English and all about European culture in an enjoyable way. To name but two of the innumerable educational benefits. Now imagine what might happen if that youngster had seen members get out their purses to pay their annual subs and table fees. And he saw them put all that money on the table for collection by the treasurer.

It happens in many European clubs. Inevitably it will happen without thinking at a european run club in Thailand in front of a young thai barmaid serving drinks for the first time. Unlikely that anyone will think to explain to her why there is more money on all the tables than she will earn in a month! So the potential for misundertandings is huge. Especially when the facts can get distorted and exagerrated as thais innocently report the goings on to their friends all over Thailand via Facebook. With photos! Perhaps one has a military father. The authorities would have to act.

Paradoxically, despite the public relations disaster this past fortnight, I like to think that the publicity means a school bridge project in Thailand would receive priority consideration. Goodwill and commonsense on both sides is obviously needed. But there are two other prerequisites as I see it:

Firstly, the hysterical and unjustified "authority bashing" by ignorant people who hide behind anonymity must stop immediately.

Secondly, any unthinking foreigner who might have done something stupid - whether by act or omission - should put up their hands and admit their mistakes. Showing humility instead of criticising our hosts could go a long way to helping the bridge players in Pattaya. Do not forget this is their country and we are their guests.

A starting point might be a public apology from those who allege double standards. Did you not read an article in the Bangkok Post reporting that a house in the Capital was raided following a tip off? If I remember rightly, Thai police went in and arrested........8 card playing Thai policemen.

Finally I would like to make a heartfelt plea for experienced bridge players to come in droves to this wonderful country to play yourselves - and to encourage and help more thais to play. Collectively we could conceivably overcome this setback quickly. Please try to understand their culture and help their Federation educate the population on the beauty of bridge.

On behalf of fun-loving, bridge playing thai children who are too young to make this appeal, "UP TO YOU".

ACES Bridge and Chess Club

[onemorechang]

Best not to lecture people , to much.

Im off for a beer.

Have a nice day

[spidermike007]

Gambling in such an ingrained part of Thai society, I doubt it will ever be eradicated. Most police are not making much of an effort. And most of the time they profit from the local games. So, to even insinuate that this was about gambling, is disingenuous, at best. This was about another issue entirely. And as sad as this is to say, based on the additional raid in Chiang Mai, a few days later, it does appear to be the beginning of an anti-farang policy, on the part of the government. They are specifically targeting Western foreigners, at a time when tourism from the west is already on a decline. Either this represents a staggering degree of ignorance, and an enormous lack of judgment, or this is deliberate, in a growing attempt to discourage Western tourism, and ex-pats from settling here. I realize these are bold conclusions. And I truly hope I am wrong. It would be a real challenge to deal with an increasingly hostile government, as an ex-pat, and my guess is that many of us would choose to move on. Millions of Western tourists have already made that choice, and it is not just for economic reasons. There are a large, smelly pile of reasons they have decided to shun Thailand, and continue to decide on other destinations. A dozen reasons, at least. I could bore you by naming them, but you already know what they are.

What do you think? Is this possibly a new agenda? Am I misreading this? Hope so.

[petedk]

Gambling in such an ingrained part of Thai society, I doubt it will ever be eradicated. Most police are not making much of an effort. And most of the time they profit from the local games. So, to even insinuate that this was about gambling, is disingenuous, at best. This was about another issue entirely. And as sad as this is to say, based on the additional raid in Chiang Mai, a few days later, it does appear to be the beginning of an anti-farang policy, on the part of the government. They are specifically targeting Western foreigners, at a time when tourism from the west is already on a decline. Either this represents a staggering degree of ignorance, and an enormous lack of judgment, or this is deliberate, in a growing attempt to discourage Western tourism, and ex-pats from settling here. I realize these are bold conclusions. And I truly hope I am wrong. It would be a real challenge to deal with an increasingly hostile government, as an ex-pat, and my guess is that many of us would choose to move on. Millions of Western tourists have already made that choice, and it is not just for economic reasons. There are a large, smelly pile of reasons they have decided to shun Thailand, and continue to decide on other destinations. A dozen reasons, at least. I could bore you by naming them, but you already know what they are.

What do you think? Is this possibly a new agenda? Am I misreading this? Hope so.

It doesn't look like a new agenda.

Apparently playing bridge in Phuket is perfectly OK.

http://www.phuketgazette.net/phuket-news/Phuket-officials-confirm-troubled-waters-bridge-players/63260?desktopversion

[Bridger]

If you are insinuating that the club in Phuket receives special treatment for whatever reasons, please let me know why.

Phuket is the only club outside BKK where I have never played. Nor have I contacted anyone at the club in relation to the Pattaya raid or your post above.

Nevertheless, without knowing exactly why you asked the question, I would like to say this: If you comply with Thai law and regulations ( which are hardly any different and perhaps less onerous than European ones) AND you explain to the locals and the authorities what bridge is all about, then there are no worries;

ACES BRIDGE & CHESS CLUB (Koh Samui)

[onemorechang]

Thought post 294, was good.

a Tad in the face, but ok.

Don't stoke the fire , it don't need it.

[Bridger]

A big thank you to onemorechang for the complement. In fact I am tryng to douse the flames rather than stoke the fire. Here is why:

Whether the remark about Phuket was insinuating or not, the innuendos of such questions are enough to cause parents to take their children out of bridge school. Sadly that happened here in Samui.

When, like me, you have been slaving away attending thai classes 4 days a week to be able to teach bridge to these youngsters, it is heartbreaking. A lot of work and much time and expense potentially wasted: After 59 years of playing bridge it is hard.

Even worse was the fact that I had just received the agreement in prinicple of a prominent local school to introduce a bridge programme in schools,

Need I say more.

Probably not, but I will: If bridge lovers worldwide climb on board, believe me when I say that Thailand can one day challenge for the Olympic medals.

ACES (Koh Samui)