Do I need a work permit for an Online Shop ?

[autanic]

Hi

I am just going to put this question out there because the more I read on google, the more confusing it is.

Basically, I found a website, where I can buy an online shop called Usercart.com

I want to sell paintings both oil and water colours of different landscape paintings. Khunart.com, I want to sell to multiple languages and in the stages of setting up my business.

I am an expat and so my hobby will earn me a few quid while I am out here too.

My question is, do I need a work permit for an online shop. I will not have any suppliers except for stationary materials and paints etc.

I will be taking payments through Paypal.com or Stripe.com direct to a UK bank account, and then transferring the money to K-Bank here.

The only visible signs I am in business will be my art work and clerical work to support my accounts.

So do I need a work permit or can I just keep under the radar.

[autanic]

I should mention I am on an "o" retirement visa.

[ThaiKneeTim]

If it's a UK based operation with payments into a UK bank it's a UK business no matter where you're located.

Lots of people run a business via the internet while living abroad, it's the ideal loophole for expats.

[BKKdreaming]

are you doing the painting yourself in Thailand ?

[autanic]

If it's a UK based operation with payments into a UK bank it's a UK business no matter where you're located.

Lots of people run a business via the internet while living abroad, it's the ideal loophole for expats.

Thats what I was hoping. So I just submit a Self Assessment to the HMRC each year I guess ?

Do I not even declare it to the Thai Authorities ?

[autanic]

are you doing the painting yourself in Thailand ?

Yes, I have always love painting and the inspiration in Thailand is out of this world.

[Crossy]

are you doing the painting yourself in Thailand ?

Yes, I have always love painting and the inspiration in Thailand is out of this world.

I suggest that since you are painting here and selling the output, whether within Thailand or overseas you will require a Work Permit with all the salad-dressing associated with it

Hobbies don't need a WP, working does, think about the chaps who were building boats (in Phuket IIRC) they were fine until they sold one

Moving to an appropriate forum for more directed comments.

[impulse]

Are you in it for the online shop, or for the painting itself?

Both would technically require a work permit if they're legal at all.

Painting (for sale) in Thailand may be considered an artisan endeavor and be off limits to foreigners altogether. Google will find the lists of activities that are off limits to foreigners. It's scary.

It is possible to have a website that locks out all IP addresses from various countries. For example, I doubt you'd be interested in sales to North Korea. You can do the rest of the math...

Edit: BTW, if you're confused, you're in good company. The rules and interpretation seem deliberately vague so they can enforce whatever they want, whenever they want. It's called "rule by law" (as opposed to "rule of law"). And certainly not unique to Thailand.

Edited February 7, 2016 by impulse

[cgphuket]

Legally, if your living in Thailand while earning money, your working and legally require a work permit, which you likely wont get. Catch-22.

[ThaiKneeTim]

Legally, if your living in Thailand while earning money, your working and legally require a work permit, which you likely wont get. Catch-22.

Not necessarily, the Thai authorities won't know where the painting takes place unless you tell them but the important thing is that trading takes place as a UK enterprise.

[impulse]

Legally, if your living in Thailand while earning money, your working and legally require a work permit, which you likely wont get. Catch-22.

Not necessarily, the Thai authorities won't know where the painting takes place unless you tell them but the important thing is that trading takes place as a UK enterprise.

Right up until you ship one from an address in Thailand. That's pretty much a dead giveaway...

[BKKdreaming]

If he paints in Thailand as a "Hobby"

then sends them back to the UK for " safe keeping "

ummmmmm

[p_brownstone]

If it's a UK based operation with payments into a UK bank it's a UK business no matter where you're located.

Lots of people run a business via the internet while living abroad, it's the ideal loophole for expats.

Totally incorrect "information".

Under Thai Law any "work" performed in Thailand requires a Work Permit.

Patrick

[p_brownstone]

Legally, if your living in Thailand while earning money, your working and legally require a work permit, which you likely wont get. Catch-22.

Not necessarily, the Thai authorities won't know where the painting takes place unless you tell them but the important thing is that trading takes place as a UK enterprise.

Right up until you ship one from an address in Thailand. That's pretty much a dead giveaway...

Exactly - depends on the volume of course but a Farang making regular visits to his local Post Office to send packages overseas could raise a red flag to authorities here; not a certainty but there's always a chance.

Patrick

[CharlieH]

Like so many things in Thailand, it doesnt really matter what anyone's opinion is, what matters is the opinion and the interpretation of any laws ect by that Thai person of authority on the day.

In short, its gamble no matter which way you want to argue it.

[rwdrwdrwd]

^ dead on

[darrendsd]

I would say you do need a WP as you are producing and selling the art from here,

However as another poster points out it doesn't really matter what I or others on here think, it's up to Immigration to decide

[SoFarAndNear]

You should be fine if everything you do is online and do involved in any money or customer transactions in Thailand. But who knows what will come?! If they really want to enforce the thousands of digital nomads in Thailand go legit they have to allow self-employment for foreigners... actually a good deal for Thailand.

[chrisinth]

I would say you do need a WP as you are producing and selling the art from here,

However as another poster points out it doesn't really matter what I or others on here think, it's up to Immigration to decide

Why immigration?

[impulse]

If they really want to enforce the thousands of digital nomads in Thailand go legit they have to allow self-employment for foreigners... actually a good deal for Thailand.

Nope. They don't have to allow nothin'. There's another enforcement option.

I'm not advocating it. I'm not in favor of it. I'd love to see them legalize digital nomads who actually contribute to Thai society. In fact, I'd love to see the world opened up to digital nomads to work anywhere they can afford to live and are willing to obey the laws (and pay taxes only where they use public resources). But it's not up to us.

Denying that the "nuclear option" exists, and that it becomes easier as tracking technology improves and border crossing for nefarious purposes increases, is poor business (and life) planning.

I suspect the OP would be about 95% safe under existing conditions. But there's still a risk, and smart money says the risk will only increase as governments get better at tracking the money and flow of low volume commerce.

[ThaiKneeTim]

Ways and means.

Get a Thai to go to the post office and send as a gift.

You could also claim you bought them in Thailand and send them to friends as gifts.

If you're only sending originals, and not prints, I don't think you'll be going to the post office often enough to draw attention. It's not as if you're knocking them out on an industrial scale.

Edited February 7, 2016 by ThaiKneeTim

[darrendsd]

I would say you do need a WP as you are producing and selling the art from here,

However as another poster points out it doesn't really matter what I or others on here think, it's up to Immigration to decide

Why immigration?

Because it will be Immigration that the OP will be dealing with if they suspect him of working

[crazygreg44]

why paint it by yourself, offer the paintings of the many thai artisans on your UK based website. When somebody accepts the offer, mail them the painting inside a roll to get it framed in the UK.

This would not need a work permit because you buy from a Thai who produced it for sale to a foreigner, right?

[stevenl]

If they really want to enforce the thousands of digital nomads in Thailand go legit they have to allow self-employment for foreigners... actually a good deal for Thailand.

Nope. They don't have to allow nothin'. There's another enforcement option.

I'm not advocating it. I'm not in favor of it. I'd love to see them legalize digital nomads who actually contribute to Thai society. In fact, I'd love to see the world opened up to digital nomads to work anywhere they can afford to live and are willing to obey the laws (and pay taxes only where they use public resources). But it's not up to us.

Denying that the "nuclear option" exists, and that it becomes easier as tracking technology improves and border crossing for nefarious purposes increases, is poor business (and life) planning.

I suspect the OP would be about 95% safe under existing conditions. But there's still a risk, and smart money says the risk will only increase as governments get better at tracking the money and flow of low volume commerce.

Agree with you, except that I think he is less than 95% safe, because his business will be quite visible with the painting, the sending and also the selling. It may be UK bank account, but still traceable to Thailand.

[Pepper9187]

Legally, if your living in Thailand while earning money, your working and legally require a work permit, which you likely wont get. Catch-22.

Not necessarily, the Thai authorities won't know where the painting takes place unless you tell them but the important thing is that trading takes place as a UK enterprise.

Well it's not because the local authorities don't know that you work and where you work that it's legal ...

Technically you work from Thailand and generate an income by yourself from the Thai ground, so ... you know ...

[Maestro]

Wouldn't the online shop be quite public and visible?

[HikeFromLA]

If it's a UK based operation with payments into a UK bank it's a UK business no matter where you're located.

Lots of people run a business via the internet while living abroad, it's the ideal loophole for expats.

Totally incorrect "information".

Under Thai Law any "work" performed in Thailand requires a Work Permit.

Patrick

Nope. Folks on TVF need to stop repeating this misinformation.

For example, the Thai Police have investigated the digital nomads at the co-working space (shared office) called Punspace in Chiang Mai, to see if all those Farangs hammering away on keyboards all day were violating Thai law.

http://www.johnnyfd.com/2014/09/live-updates-immigration-crackdown-in.html

The Farangs weren't violating the law, and all is hunky dory there. Sitting at a laptop and selling software or games or writing or art from a Thai IP address, selling to Farang countries, is simply not considered to be working in Thailand, for legal purposes. Think about it: you are not taking baht out of Thai hands, and you are not taking jobs from Thai workers. The Royal Thai Police do have basic common sense, unlike some expats.

BTW, I live right across the soi from Punspace Tha Phae Gate location, and they are open for business, in accordance with Thai law, every damn day.

[scorecard]

Legally, if your living in Thailand while earning money, your working and legally require a work permit, which you likely wont get. Catch-22.

Not necessarily, the Thai authorities won't know where the painting takes place unless you tell them but the important thing is that trading takes place as a UK enterprise.

If push comes to shove the appropriate Thai authorities will laugh at 'but it's a UK enterprise'.

The activity is in Thailand, therefore, by the law, it needs a work permit.

Have you thought about possible negative consequences on your retirement visa?

Edited February 7, 2016 by scorecard

[Maestro]

Totally incorrect "information".

Under Thai Law any "work" performed in Thailand requires a Work Permit.

Patrick

Nope. Folks on TVF need to stop repeating this misinformation.

For example, the Thai Police have investigated the digital nomads at the co-working space (shared office) called Punspace in Chiang Mai, to see if all those Farangs hammering away on keyboards all day were violating Thai law.

http://www.johnnyfd.com/2014/09/live-updates-immigration-crackdown-in.html

The Farangs weren't violating the law, and all is hunky dory there. Sitting at a laptop and selling software or games or writing or art from a Thai IP address, selling to Farang countries, is simply not considered to be working in Thailand, for legal purposes. Think about it: you are not taking baht out of Thai hands, and you are not taking jobs from Thai workers. The Royal Thai Police do have basic common sense, unlike some expats.

BTW, I live right across the soi from Punspace Tha Phae Gate location, and they are open for business, in accordance with Thai law, every damn day.

The way I remember that police investigation in Chiang Mai it was Punspace, respectively its management, that was investigated, not the clients who were present on the premises. The result of the investigation was that the police was satisfied that the establishment was not employing foreigners without a work permit, that the foreigners were not employees but were hiring the use of electronic equipment and space the same way any person using the services of a so-called Internet café is doing.

[Pepper9187]

If it's a UK based operation with payments into a UK bank it's a UK business no matter where you're located.

Lots of people run a business via the internet while living abroad, it's the ideal loophole for expats.

Totally incorrect "information".

Under Thai Law any "work" performed in Thailand requires a Work Permit.

Patrick

Nope. Folks on TVF need to stop repeating this misinformation.

For example, the Thai Police have investigated the digital nomads at the co-working space (shared office) called Punspace in Chiang Mai, to see if all those Farangs hammering away on keyboards all day were violating Thai law.

http://www.johnnyfd.com/2014/09/live-updates-immigration-crackdown-in.html

The Farangs weren't violating the law, and all is hunky dory there. Sitting at a laptop and selling software or games or writing or art from a Thai IP address, selling to Farang countries, is simply not considered to be working in Thailand, for legal purposes. Think about it: you are not taking baht out of Thai hands, and you are not taking jobs from Thai workers. The Royal Thai Police do have basic common sense, unlike some expats.

BTW, I live right across the soi from Punspace Tha Phae Gate location, and they are open for business, in accordance with Thai law, every damn day.

It's not a matter of some expats not having common sense.

Autanic, i believe asked a legal question, he did not asked "is it good or not good" or "will i still be able to move my arms to ships stuff abroad if i work without a work permit"

He just asked if, legally speaking, working from Thailand and generating an income (as little as it is) require a work permit.

It's not because people kill other people in a car accident, run away or find an arrangement with the gov / family that it's legal.

The law and its interpretation are flexible here, don't take particular cases for a rule.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Pepper9187