Do I need a work permit for an Online Shop ?

[scorecard]

If it's a UK based operation with payments into a UK bank it's a UK business no matter where you're located.

Lots of people run a business via the internet while living abroad, it's the ideal loophole for expats.

Totally incorrect "information".

Under Thai Law any "work" performed in Thailand requires a Work Permit.

Patrick

Nope. Folks on TVF need to stop repeating this misinformation.

For example, the Thai Police have investigated the digital nomads at the co-working space (shared office) called Punspace in Chiang Mai, to see if all those Farangs hammering away on keyboards all day were violating Thai law.

http://www.johnnyfd.com/2014/09/live-updates-immigration-crackdown-in.html

The Farangs weren't violating the law, and all is hunky dory there. Sitting at a laptop and selling software or games or writing or art from a Thai IP address, selling to Farang countries, is simply not considered to be working in Thailand, for legal purposes. Think about it: you are not taking baht out of Thai hands, and you are not taking jobs from Thai workers. The Royal Thai Police do have basic common sense, unlike some expats.

BTW, I live right across the soi from Punspace Tha Phae Gate location, and they are open for business, in accordance with Thai law, every damn day.

Did the police check what activity had taken place within the last few hours on the laptop computers owned by the foreigners?

[scorecard]

Totally incorrect "information".

Under Thai Law any "work" performed in Thailand requires a Work Permit.

Patrick

Nope. Folks on TVF need to stop repeating this misinformation.

For example, the Thai Police have investigated the digital nomads at the co-working space (shared office) called Punspace in Chiang Mai, to see if all those Farangs hammering away on keyboards all day were violating Thai law.

http://www.johnnyfd.com/2014/09/live-updates-immigration-crackdown-in.html

The Farangs weren't violating the law, and all is hunky dory there. Sitting at a laptop and selling software or games or writing or art from a Thai IP address, selling to Farang countries, is simply not considered to be working in Thailand, for legal purposes. Think about it: you are not taking baht out of Thai hands, and you are not taking jobs from Thai workers. The Royal Thai Police do have basic common sense, unlike some expats.

BTW, I live right across the soi from Punspace Tha Phae Gate location, and they are open for business, in accordance with Thai law, every damn day.

The way I remember that police investigation in Chiang Mai it was Punspace, respectively its management, that was investigated, not the clients who were present on the premises. The result of the investigation was that the police was satisfied that the establishment was not employing foreigners without a work permit, that the foreigners were not employees but were hiring the use of electronic equipment and space the same way any person using the services of a so-called Internet café is doing.

So from your understanding did the police actually check what activity had been taking place on the notebook computers of the foreigners within the last hour or several hours?

Or did the police just accept verbal comments that it's just the same as using an internet cafe to contact friends, etc?

"respectively its management, that was investigated, not the clients who were present on the premises."

This comment seems to indicate the police were checking whether the foreigners were employees of the Thai management of the place, rather than conversations with the foreigners present in regard to what the foreigners were actually doing.

Edited February 7, 2016 by scorecard

[overherebc]

You can do it without a work permit until you upset the wrong person.

[Maestro]

So from your understanding did the police actually check what activity had been taking place on the notebook computers of the foreigners within the last hour or several hours?

The way I remember it from the news report – the police report was not published – the police took no particular interest in what the clients at the establishment were viewing or typing on there computers. The story was in an English-language paper published in Thailand, I believe, a couple of years ago.

P.S. This was the topic about the "raid" on Punspace in Chiang Mai:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/764936-immigration-raid-targets-digital-nomads-in-chiang-mai/

Edited February 7, 2016 by Maestro
added postscript

[HikeFromLA]

If it's a UK based operation with payments into a UK bank it's a UK business no matter where you're located.

Lots of people run a business via the internet while living abroad, it's the ideal loophole for expats.

Totally incorrect "information".

Under Thai Law any "work" performed in Thailand requires a Work Permit.

Patrick

Nope. Folks on TVF need to stop repeating this misinformation.

For example, the Thai Police have investigated the digital nomads at the co-working space (shared office) called Punspace in Chiang Mai, to see if all those Farangs hammering away on keyboards all day were violating Thai law.

http://www.johnnyfd.com/2014/09/live-updates-immigration-crackdown-in.html

The Farangs weren't violating the law, and all is hunky dory there. Sitting at a laptop and selling software or games or writing or art from a Thai IP address, selling to Farang countries, is simply not considered to be working in Thailand, for legal purposes. Think about it: you are not taking baht out of Thai hands, and you are not taking jobs from Thai workers. The Royal Thai Police do have basic common sense, unlike some expats.

BTW, I live right across the soi from Punspace Tha Phae Gate location, and they are open for business, in accordance with Thai law, every damn day.

Did the police check what activity had taken place within the last few hours on the laptop computers owned by the foreigners?

Seems to me I read (or viewed on YouTube, where Johny D described the event) that the detainees were asked to bring laptops to the police station.

Regardless of that, it seems unlikely that all the detainees would have all lied to the police and said they were just checking email.

I worked there 2 months myself, everything is open. Programmers, blogger, artists, etc. all working there, no secrets.

They even hold public events for digital nomads. "Fiverr" sponsored a mixer while I was there.

BTW, I'm not surprised the RTP had not heard of co-working space concept. I never heard of it when living in Los Angeles up to 2 years ago. As far as I'm concerned it's a brand-new thing.

I suggest that anyone nervous about getting a permit to do art etc at home, should visit a co-work space in Bangkok or Chiang Mai or Kuala Lumpur or Saigon or Siem Reap or Manila or Davao. After you see the busy office environment there, you will chillax. No one cares.

Generally once you start hiring scheduled EMPLOYEES the local government will want legal registration of company at minimum.

The Lone Wolf is not pursued. (I have heard that some countries like Vietnam will monitor web traffic to locate illegal businesses, but I doubt they care about the Lone Wolf working from home even there. If considering VN I would check further.)

PS:

"De minimis non curat lex."

(The law is not concerned with trifles.)

[Maestro]

This is from a blog entry by a client of Punspace Chiang Mai who got caught up in the raid in September 2014:

...

I'm sitting here at PunSpace the coworking space in Chiang Mai, and about an hour ago 20 armed uniformed police and immigration officials stormed in and detained everyone. Currently 18 tourists are in a police van being taken to Thai Immigration near the airport.

The only four tourists left at PunSpace right now is a European guy that has his passport and a valid Education visa, myself, and an American couple who are on 30 day visas on arrival.

Update: The last of us "volunteered" to come to immigration on our own. We drove there unescorted. Turns out they thought we were employees of PunSpace which is untrue. We're all still here but good news so far is that they aren't targeting digital nomads.

Update: At Thai immigration near the airport, everyone got interviewed but were treated extremely kindly. It ended up taking a few hours and felt like a big waste of time, but nothing bad actually happened. The owners of PunSpace were even nice enough to bring us lunch.

Those without passports on them were supposed to be fined, but ended up being let go without penalty after their information was looked up on the computer.

Source: http://www.johnnyfd.com/2014/09/live-updates-immigration-crackdown-in.html

[mngmn]

You can do it without a work permit until you upset the wrong person.

Same as you can play bridge for 30 years until you upset the wrong person

But seriously, apart from the need to be right, why do people on this forum obsess so much about what other people do?

[darrendsd]

You can do it without a work permit until you upset the wrong person.

Same as you can play bridge for 30 years until you upset the wrong person

But seriously, apart from the need to be right, why do people on this forum obsess so much about what other people do?

You are right that people on this forum obsess about what other people do but in this instance the OP asked if he required a WP for his business and people are giving their opinions on this

To be honest asking the question here is a waste of time as you will not get a definite answer, the only way to get a definite answer would be to ask the Labour department and Immigration themselves

[BKKdreaming]

if you are taking a "job" away from a Thai someday you will be in the spotlight ......

Lay low and change Post Offices when you do shipping.......

[scorecard]

why paint it by yourself, offer the paintings of the many thai artisans on your UK based website. When somebody accepts the offer, mail them the painting inside a roll to get it framed in the UK.

This would not need a work permit because you buy from a Thai who produced it for sale to a foreigner, right?

Meaning that you are acting as a trader located in Thailand. Still needs a WP under the law.

[impulse]

If it's a UK based operation with payments into a UK bank it's a UK business no matter where you're located.

Lots of people run a business via the internet while living abroad, it's the ideal loophole for expats.

Totally incorrect "information".

Under Thai Law any "work" performed in Thailand requires a Work Permit.

Patrick

Nope. Folks on TVF need to stop repeating this misinformation.

For example, the Thai Police have investigated the digital nomads at the co-working space (shared office) called Punspace in Chiang Mai, to see if all those Farangs hammering away on keyboards all day were violating Thai law.

http://www.johnnyfd.com/2014/09/live-updates-immigration-crackdown-in.html

The Farangs weren't violating the law, and all is hunky dory there. Sitting at a laptop and selling software or games or writing or art from a Thai IP address, selling to Farang countries, is simply not considered to be working in Thailand, for legal purposes. Think about it: you are not taking baht out of Thai hands, and you are not taking jobs from Thai workers. The Royal Thai Police do have basic common sense, unlike some expats.

BTW, I live right across the soi from Punspace Tha Phae Gate location, and they are open for business, in accordance with Thai law, every damn day.

There's a big difference between being legal, and the police turning a blind eye to it, or not being fully aware of what's going on.

Usually, the difference becomes apparent when it's too late. That's when you see the pointing on the front page.

There's also a difference between a tourist answering an email, dashing off some code, updating his blog, or fulfilling an EBay order while he's on a vacation, and a "long stay tourist" selling art online and shipping it from Thailand.

[bkkcanuck8]

If it's a UK based operation with payments into a UK bank it's a UK business no matter where you're located.

Lots of people run a business via the internet while living abroad, it's the ideal loophole for expats.

Totally incorrect "information".

Under Thai Law any "work" performed in Thailand requires a Work Permit.

Patrick

Nope. Folks on TVF need to stop repeating this misinformation.

For example, the Thai Police have investigated the digital nomads at the co-working space (shared office) called Punspace in Chiang Mai, to see if all those Farangs hammering away on keyboards all day were violating Thai law.

http://www.johnnyfd.com/2014/09/live-updates-immigration-crackdown-in.html

The Farangs weren't violating the law, and all is hunky dory there. Sitting at a laptop and selling software or games or writing or art from a Thai IP address, selling to Farang countries, is simply not considered to be working in Thailand, for legal purposes. Think about it: you are not taking baht out of Thai hands, and you are not taking jobs from Thai workers. The Royal Thai Police do have basic common sense, unlike some expats.

BTW, I live right across the soi from Punspace Tha Phae Gate location, and they are open for business, in accordance with Thai law, every damn day.

There's a big difference between being legal, and the police turning a blind eye to it, or not being fully aware of what's going on.

Usually, the difference becomes apparent when it's too late. That's when you see the pointing on the front page.

There's also a difference between a tourist answering an email, dashing off some code, updating his blog, or fulfilling an EBay order while he's on a vacation, and a "long stay tourist" selling art online and shipping it from Thailand.

If you are a follow the law to the letter of the law -- then opening your email or even talking to someone you work with (or even getting out of bed) is covered by it. It covers pretty well everything - then it is up to the discretion of the officers and legal system as to what they will enforce and what they will not. What was the law intended to prevent? Was it intended to prevent foreigners from taking jobs from locals? etc.

I would say that for the most part - digital nomads are ok.

Anything that requires a physical presence in Thailand (i.e. shipping local goods through an online store) would fall afoul of the immigration and business regulations. If the goods were not shipped from Thailand then - or the goods were virtual then it would be ok. Sooner or later police will come to the location of all the activity and ask for contributions and check documentation IMHO.

[FritsSikkink]

If it's a UK based operation with payments into a UK bank it's a UK business no matter where you're located.

Lots of people run a business via the internet while living abroad, it's the ideal loophole for expats.

BS. he is living in Thailand and works there (making paintings, put them on a website with the purpose of selling them). not only does he need a work permit because he lives in Thailand for more then 180 days a year, he has to pay tax. working on a retirement visa is not allowed

[Maestro]

Removed an off-topic post.

[technologybytes]

The question is largely academic. You cannot get a work permit for an online shop.

[dodojero]

Open the online shop in the name of your THAI wife, girlfriend or gig and let the payment go to her banK account where you have access to. Then it's not YOU who is doing the business. Problem solved!

[Kasset Tak]

That's how the Thai labor law works: forbid foreigners that will do a better job to work in Thailand...
Back home my hobby was lapandry (stone polishing) and facet cutting and then I made silver jewelry to set the finished stones in but in Thailand I can't do that according to the labor law. I tried to buy the machinery to cut stones but the companies I contacted denied to sell to me as I'm not Thai. And as far as I'm concerned I will never buy a stone cut in Thailand, I used to cut to a accuracy of 0.01-0.03 mm between the facets (a perfect cut would be 0.00mm off, but hey it was my hobby) and always being careful to get the angles as perfect as I could because that's how you get the best shine/luster out of the stone but most stones I have seen here has an accuracy of 0.1-0.2mm and no real care about getting perfect angels.

This picture is not that good but it's the only photo left on my computer with my own work:
rock crystal in brilliant cut

aquamarine in emerald cut

two white topaz in square cut

[p_brownstone]

Open the online shop in the name of your THAI wife, girlfriend or gig and let the payment go to her banK account where you have access to. Then it's not YOU who is doing the business. Problem solved!

There are SO many pitfalls in your suggestion, I'm somewhat stunned!

OP - do NOT even consider this "solution" very far from "problem solved" as claimed, you will encounter many more.

Patrick

Edited February 9, 2016 by p_brownstone

[dodojero]

@ p_brownstone

Even to breath could be a crime here and to forward a link on Facebook..... so what?

[Tomtomtom69]

Legally, if your living in Thailand while earning money, your working and legally require a work permit, which you likely wont get. Catch-22.

Not necessarily, the Thai authorities won't know where the painting takes place unless you tell them but the important thing is that trading takes place as a UK enterprise.

Right up until you ship one from an address in Thailand. That's pretty much a dead giveaway...

Not necessarily. You're dealing with the Post Office (and ultimately customs) here I hardly think immigration is going to get involved. You're thinking too far ahead, as if all "whiteys" were being monitored at every step by Thai immigration with sophisticated devices in order to catch them doing something "illegal".

There are so many ways of avoiding this issue anyway. Write the sender's name in Thai, and even better, put a Thai person's name or even a fake Thai person's name on the address. Go to different post offices. Have a Thai person send the packages.

Then again either way there won't be a problem for this kind of enterprise.

[Tomtomtom69]

That's how the Thai labor law works: forbid foreigners that will do a better job to work in Thailand...

Back home my hobby was lapandry (stone polishing) and facet cutting and then I made silver jewelry to set the finished stones in but in Thailand I can't do that according to the labor law. I tried to buy the machinery to cut stones but the companies I contacted denied to sell to me as I'm not Thai. And as far as I'm concerned I will never buy a stone cut in Thailand, I used to cut to a accuracy of 0.01-0.03 mm between the facets (a perfect cut would be 0.00mm off, but hey it was my hobby) and always being careful to get the angles as perfect as I could because that's how you get the best shine/luster out of the stone but most stones I have seen here has an accuracy of 0.1-0.2mm and no real care about getting perfect angels.

This picture is not that good but it's the only photo left on my computer with my own work:

rock crystal in brilliant cut

aquamarine in emerald cut

two white topaz in square cut

A bit strange that nobody wanted to SELL to you, considering that is what every Thai wants to do, to sell you something to make money. How would they know where you wanted to sell your stones? You could, for all intents and purposes be buying a piece of cutting machinery here to take back to your country of residence in order to cut the stones there.

​If that's still not good enough for the companies you dealt with here, maybe you should consider buying the equipment in China instead. They make everything there, at better quality with better customer service than in Thailand and would be more than happy to sell to you. Just a friendly suggestion BTW and good luck with your hobby.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Tomtomtom69

[torpedo1970]

If you have painting as a hobby, and after done, shipping the painting back to England for safe keeping. you are in the clear.

And when a order for a picture is received it should be sent from the UK to the buyer. meaning that all business purposes is done in UK.

The only thing you are doing is as a digital nomad confirming the order and sending e-mail to the person distributing your orders.

if you pack and distribute from Thailand you are breaking the law on a retirement visa.

[Mr Money Bags]

Leaving aside the argument regarding whether or not he is actually working in the LOS and therefore requires a work permit, is he even allowed to earn money whilst on a retirement visa here?

Methinks not......

You're Welcome!!

[jspill]

Many just do it and keep quiet about it. Whatever you do don't tell random expats in a bar that you work online, some can be hateful jealous bunch.

[Suradit69]

Legally, if your living in Thailand while earning money, your working and legally require a work permit, which you likely wont get. Catch-22.

"Legally, if your [sic] living in Thailand while earning money, your [sic] working"

Earning money is largely irrelevant. You could be doing volunteer work or running a business that's losing money, but you're still working.

[ubonjoe]

Leaving aside the argument regarding whether or not he is actually working in the LOS and therefore requires a work permit, is he even allowed to earn money whilst on a retirement visa here?

Methinks not......

You're Welcome!! .

There is no rule that prevents a person from earning money outside the country if on a visa or extension of stay based upon retirement. There are many people that work outside the country on a rotation that are on extensions..

[VIPinthailand]

work in Thailand means you are employed in a office from 8 to 5 pm

our governments are still in the past.

you don't need any work permit for a hobby even if you work hard as you are not sterling job from someone else.

and you can not apply for a work permit . you need to find an employer to sponsore you.

[Mr Money Bags]

Leaving aside the argument regarding whether or not he is actually working in the LOS and therefore requires a work permit, is he even allowed to earn money whilst on a retirement visa here?

Methinks not......

You're Welcome!! .

There is no rule that prevents a person from earning money outside the country if on a visa or extension of stay based upon retirement. There are many people that work outside the country on a rotation that are on extensions..

Murky Stuff.

Thank you for the clarifying info!!

[JHolmesJr]

What if you go for a day trip, paint the picture in laos and bring it back with you?

Edited February 9, 2016 by JHolmesJr

[NoshowJones]

If it's a UK based operation with payments into a UK bank it's a UK business no matter where you're located.

Lots of people run a business via the internet while living abroad, it's the ideal loophole for expats.

Thats what I was hoping. So I just submit a Self Assessment to the HMRC each year I guess ?

Do I not even declare it to the Thai Authorities ?

First question. Pay UK tax????????

Second. No, because they will then accuse you of working without a work permit, and in

your case there is no way you will get one.

Work in Thailand, even if it is unpaid, or just voluntary, you need a work permit.