Teacher Licensing, Culture Testing, TCT

[Xangsamhua]

We were initially told that new teachers had to have a teaching qualification. Since that time, however, we have submitted paperwork on a number of applicants with no teaching qualifications and no teaching experience (but with a Bachelor's Degree). They have been accepted without problem.

Thank you Scott

As you can see, I'm not fully up to date and I realise that the "rules" are not always applied consistently. However, I understood that the 15 credit points in Education rule applied only to private bilingual schools in the BMA - not to Samut Prakarn, Nonthaburi or Pathumthani. (I see from the Ramkhamhaeng information they're talking now about 24 credit points!?) In any case the "rule" may be being honoured in the breach.

Perhaps it depends on what kind of bachelor's degree you have. My query was on behalf of teachers who've been knocked back on the ground that their base qualification was not acceptable and who've been advised to get a teaching qualification. The particular case I have in mind is of a man with a 4-year post-secondary diploma from a European technical institute. However I do know of another case where someone with a technical qualification was given a work permit after completing the Suan Dusit teacher qualifying course a couple of years ago.

I suppose there's really a couple of issues here, one being whether the European tech graduate can convince Ramkhamhaeng of his eligibility to enrol and, if he is admitted and completes the course, what the MoE will say about his base qualification then.

[PeaceBlondie]

I have always been sarcastic about this supposed, alleged, imaginary "15 credit points in Education rule," an old chestnut of a rumour that's been around and around for around four years. Nobody knows. Ajarn Sasakorn and Director Wewainot and Officer Dononutton don't know. But if somebody thinks you need it, who's one of the folks who decides such things, then you need it. Otherwise, you don't need it.

Nobody's ever taken up my promise of 1,000 baht to the first person who can show a legitimate, binding, national policy that even explains what the credit thingies are, how they're certified, how they're earned, etc.

[MaiPenLai]

Am I missing something?

After reading this thread a couple of times I am at a loss to understand why Ram or the Thai government would target people already holding a Bachelors degree for improvement. Although I think an educational advancement opportunity is generally a great idea, what problem is solved or addressed by this move?

Ramkhamhaeng University International Program:

Graduate Diploma in Teaching Profession

(English Program and Chinese Program)

Admission Requirements

1. Applicants must hold a Bachelor degree or higher in any field from an accredited university.

2. Successfully pass the IIS English Test. (For exemptions from passing the IIS English Test, please see Admission Requirements.)

3. Successfully pass the interview at your learning centre.

4. Submit a complete application (including payment of the Application Fee).

I would think that since the current requirement is a Bachelors degree to get a work permit this effort will only help a small segment of the current / future teachers who choose to rise to a Masters degree. So unless the bar is being raised once again to need a Masters degree to teach, what real impact is had?

And if that is the case then Thailand is in deep trouble as the salary does not justify this. Many would argue that the current salary levels don't beg for the Bachelors degree they are requiring now compared to other Asian countries.

A note on the perception of the quality of any kind of paper from Thai universities. Ram credits are not transferable to other universities inside Thailand ( my understanding from Thai friends ) until each degree is completed. So having said that their real value is a good question.

Ultimately how one feels about the value of Thai paper is of no consequence. What is important is to plan ahead, know where you plan to apply this paper and see if it will be accepted. Ram should be making moves to get this program endorsed by brother / sister international educational partners to add legitimacy and prove it's value.

I am with aussiestyle and others who would think a more proven external distance educational institution, although arguably more expensive, would offer more application and flexibility outside of the kingdom. And as recent events have shown all of us things here can change rapidly, a gross understatement.

In the end I fail to see how this program addresses the teacher shortage. I could understand if the program were bottom up offering people with no degree and the ambition to work and live in Thailand an educational track.

I am not an education expert. I am watching a few different schools try different programs, many are quite innovative to mitigate the problems caused by recent MOE and Labor Ministry decisions. I am just another guy following this thread with interest.

MPL

[aussiestyle1983]

Am I missing something?

After reading this thread a couple of times I am at a loss to understand why Ram or the Thai government would target people already holding a Bachelors degree for improvement. Although I think an educational advancement opportunity is generally a great idea, what problem is solved or addressed by this move?

Ramkhamhaeng University International Program:

Graduate Diploma in Teaching Profession

(English Program and Chinese Program)

Admission Requirements

1. Applicants must hold a Bachelor degree or higher in any field from an accredited university.

2. Successfully pass the IIS English Test. (For exemptions from passing the IIS English Test, please see Admission Requirements.)

3. Successfully pass the interview at your learning centre.

4. Submit a complete application (including payment of the Application Fee).

I would think that since the current requirement is a Bachelors degree to get a work permit this effort will only help a small segment of the current / future teachers who choose to rise to a Masters degree. So unless the bar is being raised once again to need a Masters degree to teach, what real impact is had?

And if that is the case then Thailand is in deep trouble as the salary does not justify this. Many would argue that the current salary levels don't beg for the Bachelors degree they are requiring now compared to other Asian countries.

A note on the perception of the quality of any kind of paper from Thai universities. Ram credits are not transferable to other universities inside Thailand ( my understanding from Thai friends ) until each degree is completed. So having said that their real value is a good question.

Ultimately how one feels about the value of Thai paper is of no consequence. What is important is to plan ahead, know where you plan to apply this paper and see if it will be accepted. Ram should be making moves to get this program endorsed by brother / sister international educational partners to add legitimacy and prove it's value.

I am with aussiestyle and others who would think a more proven external distance educational institution, although arguably more expensive, would offer more application and flexibility outside of the kingdom. And as recent events have shown all of us things here can change rapidly, a gross understatement.

In the end I fail to see how this program addresses the teacher shortage. I could understand if the program were bottom up offering people with no degree and the ambition to work and live in Thailand an educational track.

I am not an education expert. I am watching a few different schools try different programs, many are quite innovative to mitigate the problems caused by recent MOE and Labor Ministry decisions. I am just another guy following this thread with interest.

MPL

You are spot on. That would not solve the problem for those without bachelor degrees in the first palce.

The MOE should open their own teacher training course, practical combined with theory. Eventually after fullfilling the requirements, you would be issued with some kind of diploma and a Thai teaching certificate or whatever. The MOE could charge a fee for the course and they would also be able to make money. I think this would be of greater benifit to teachers and students, as the teachers would be being trained how how to teach Thais etc.

[aussiestyle1983]

Uli can the RKH cert be run out to MAT or MEd?

Typically a cert like this is worth about 1/3 of a degree so if its legit, is there or least plans of it working into full qualification?

The credits earned form the Graduate Diploma courses can be transferred to the M.Ed. program at IIS. The M.Ed. needs completion of 36 credits, meaning the diploma makes 2/3.

There is a transfer fee of 1,500 Baht per credit. The 24 credits of the diploma make about 52,000 Baht, the M.Ed. program makes (complete) 250,000 Baht. Even with the transfer fee, still a good bargain.

If you would prefer to get the diploma conducted in Mandarin, you are welcome as well. Just a few days ago I got the news that this diploma is offered in our Chinese program as well (certainly, the Faculty of Education offers it in Thai as well, for as little as 27,000 Baht).

Uli

I'd rather pay $8,000 AUD for a MEd from an Australian University, you can specialise in many areas, including TESOL, physical education, etc. Even if the AUD goes back up to 30 THB per $1 AUD, then the MEd from Australia would only cost about 240,000 THB. I'm sure a MEd from an Aiustralian Uni would go a lot further in the Education or the TEFL world than one from a Thai Uni. This MEd can be studdied externally through distance education mode and the Uni that does this is rated number 1 in Australia for teaching performance. I just think that price is a bit high to pay for a Thai degree that would carry very little weight in other countries. $8,000 AUD is the fee for Australian citizens, if you're not an Aussie you would pay about double making it praobly mot so worth it for you if you only want it to teach in LOS, but just compairing the degree from RK in not that cheap for what its worth.

Not sure that you'd get a Masters now for AU$8000. USQ MEd units run out at AU$1350 now and there are 8 of them, totalling $10,800. USQ is one of the cheaper unis in Oz, though they have a very good reputation for online and distance mode.

Have a look at what UOW has to offer.

[Xangsamhua]

Uli can the RKH cert be run out to MAT or MEd?

Typically a cert like this is worth about 1/3 of a degree so if its legit, is there or least plans of it working into full qualification?

The credits earned form the Graduate Diploma courses can be transferred to the M.Ed. program at IIS. The M.Ed. needs completion of 36 credits, meaning the diploma makes 2/3.

There is a transfer fee of 1,500 Baht per credit. The 24 credits of the diploma make about 52,000 Baht, the M.Ed. program makes (complete) 250,000 Baht. Even with the transfer fee, still a good bargain.

If you would prefer to get the diploma conducted in Mandarin, you are welcome as well. Just a few days ago I got the news that this diploma is offered in our Chinese program as well (certainly, the Faculty of Education offers it in Thai as well, for as little as 27,000 Baht).

Uli

I'd rather pay $8,000 AUD for a MEd from an Australian University, you can specialise in many areas, including TESOL, physical education, etc. Even if the AUD goes back up to 30 THB per $1 AUD, then the MEd from Australia would only cost about 240,000 THB. I'm sure a MEd from an Aiustralian Uni would go a lot further in the Education or the TEFL world than one from a Thai Uni. This MEd can be studdied externally through distance education mode and the Uni that does this is rated number 1 in Australia for teaching performance. I just think that price is a bit high to pay for a Thai degree that would carry very little weight in other countries. $8,000 AUD is the fee for Australian citizens, if you're not an Aussie you would pay about double making it praobly mot so worth it for you if you only want it to teach in LOS, but just compairing the degree from RK in not that cheap for what its worth.

Not sure that you'd get a Masters now for AU$8000. USQ MEd units run out at AU$1350 now and there are 8 of them, totalling $10,800. USQ is one of the cheaper unis in Oz, though they have a very good reputation for online and distance mode.

Have a look at what UOW has to offer.

Yep. Looks good. Thanks for this, Aussiestyle.

XSH

[Xangsamhua]

Can I go back to the question of why anyone would be interested in a local qualifying course when quality assured courses are available from other places and recognized worldwide.

The advice I get from the staffing officer at our school is that the 15 credit points of a university level teaching qualification is still mandatory for a continuing work permit to teach in private bilingual/EP schools in the Bangkok jurisdiction.

A one-year work permit can be issued to a degree holder without teaching subjects, but it is subject to renewal after one year.

A teacher who wants security of tenure in one of the above category of schools should get the additional teaching qualifications.

If a teacher wants to do this quickly, the Ramkhamhaeng course is an option – 4 months full time or 8 months on a weekend basis. The MEd by distance mode would be a more comprehensive course, but would take two years part-time.

I suppose it comes down to people's circumstances and priorities.

PS if anyone knows of other places in BKK offering something like the Ramkhamhaeng course or anything online I'd like to hear of it.

[MaiPenLai]

"The advice I get from the staffing officer at our school is that the 15 credit points of a university level teaching qualification is still mandatory for a continuing work permit to teach in private bilingual/EP schools in the Bangkok jurisdiction. "

Xangsamhua, I hope that your information is wrong or if it is the current best thinking that it is abandoned quickly. If this is genuinely the coming standard then the students are the ultimately on the minus side of the equation.

The current regulations have caused many qualified and under qualified but excellent teachers to leave. The Thai government's lack of consistency and forward thinking has been felt for some time now as schools can't find teachers to meet the last set of qualifications and are doing everything they can to dodge the very rules when faced with the practical problem of staffing. Even agencies have closed as a result of dealing with too many problems from both the schools and teachers. The only winners here are teachers from the Philippines who now have a much improved position. And most proactive Thai parents are going to draw the line in the sand and vote with their wallet, and childrens feet.

Raising the bar once again so soon will have no positive effect.

I pray for the kids sake that this newer, new requirement is forgotten as quickly as Thailand becoming the fashion hub, toilet hub, or any of the other countless PR stunts and bad trial / test balloon ideas that make reading the daily newspaper and actually extracting anything useful out of it impossible. The sports section is still pretty accurate but we are talking about reporting history and not making or writing history as it were. It has become like panning for gold.

It is no wonder that Sonti (spelling?) flies to Chiang Mai to consult with a fortune teller ( an older TV thread ). I am not a believer in such things but if I were him and surrounded by yes men and people of such obvious limited ability, well, who am I to knock him for following this path.

Appologies for the off topic finishing paragraph.

Aussiestyle, kudos for the link.

MPL

[stevemiddie]

The OP is trolling looking for commission. There is no requirement from the MoE for this.

[Ijustwannateach]

Various places have used (and continue to use) scare tactics to convince people that things are "tightening up"- and they are- but one step at a time. For example, it's questionable whether Thailand could satisfy its foreign staffing needs if they really clamped down on forcing ALL teachers at ALL schools, agencies, and language centers to have at least one college degree- this is by no means the case at present (and there are some good arguments against it in the case of TEFL, actually). And to further narrow the field by requiring the (relatively many) candidates who *do* have a college degree to have at least *some* education credits would pretty much wipe out all present candidates (or 99% of them) at present salary levels. Those salary levels are changing, though, and that may eventually bring up the playing field.

It would be advisable, I'd say, for anyone who plans to be here for at least the next 4-5 years to be working on that bachelor's if they don't have one, and after that an M.Ed of some sort- get one that will mean something outside of Thailand. And for gosh sakes, don't go into any kind of money-spinning partial-degree courses like the one here unless the government itself absolutely and definitely guarantees that this will satisfy their requirements for you to be a teacher here forever and for all time under all future governments.

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

And for gosh sakes, don't go into any kind of money-spinning partial-degree courses like the one here unless the government itself absolutely and definitely guarantees that this will satisfy their requirements for you to be a teacher here forever and for all time under all future governments.

Which will occur after snow plows have to clear out four foot snow drifts on Silom Avenue...

[mbkudu]

I think the point is that the government will never absolutely, definitely guarantee anything, and the way things look at the moment, it's probably a good idea to have a qualification like this. I'll say that Uli's intro is a bit sensational, but the program is by no means unusual. Plenty of other Thai universities offer a similar diploma program costing a bit more. As an example, the one year Graduate Diploma in Education from ABAC is 136,000 baht ($US 4,000). IIS's proposed program is

52,000 baht. I can't see any harm in taking any of these diploma programs. Most industries encourage their workers to continually train and re-train during their careers. It would be nice if schools or companies were willing to share some of the costs for these programs for their teachers, but I guess that might be wishful thinking.

Edited June 20, 2007 by mbkudu

[mopenyang]

A one-year work permit can be issued to a degree holder without teaching subjects, but it is subject to renewal after one year.

How is this any different from someone who has all the education (teaching) degree requirements and/or completes a program such as the one mentioned in the OP?

Are you saying the teaching degree holder does not have to renew his or her work permit on an annual basis?

[mbkudu]

And for gosh sakes, don't go into any kind of money-spinning partial-degree courses like the one here unless the government itself absolutely and definitely guarantees that this will satisfy their requirements for you to be a teacher here forever and for all time under all future governments.

Which will occur after snow plows have to clear out four foot snow drifts on Silom Avenue...

Peace Blondie, do you ever tire of sarcasm? It gets rather old after awhile, but if it keeps you feeling young, by all means continue.

Edited June 21, 2007 by mbkudu

[Loaded]

And for gosh sakes, don't go into any kind of money-spinning partial-degree courses like the one here unless the government itself absolutely and definitely guarantees that this will satisfy their requirements for you to be a teacher here forever and for all time under all future governments.

Which will occur after snow plows have to clear out four foot snow drifts on Silom Avenue...

Peace Blondie, do you ever tire of sarcasm? It gets rather old after awhile, but if it keeps you feeling young, by all means continue.

It's because PB wants to be British. Anyway, I don't think it's too sarcastic, he's just adding a little under-stated exaggeration in tongue-in-check Brit styly. Rule Brittania.

[PeaceBlondie]

Out in remote parts of Texas we never even got to see Have You Been Served? or Monty Python.

I will try to tone down the sarcasm. Since I had my stroke, I've lost heart in being Peter Pan.

[Xangsamhua]

A one-year work permit can be issued to a degree holder without teaching subjects, but it is subject to renewal after one year.

How is this any different from someone who has all the education (teaching) degree requirements and/or completes a program such as the one mentioned in the OP?

Are you saying the teaching degree holder does not have to renew his or her work permit on an annual basis?

The crux, I'm told, is not so much the work permit as the teacher's licence. A bachelor's degree holder wanting to work in a private bilingual/EP school in the Bangkok jurisdiction can get a one-year teacher's licence which entitles him/her to a one-year work permit. For the WP to be renewed evidence is required of the 15 credit points. A bachelor's degree holder with the 15 credit points is entitled to a 3-year teacher's licence, which means that the WP will be renewed each year for 3 years (if the licence holder remains at the same school).

All this will change when the new lifetime teachers' licences are issued. I'm told they have been issued to teachers in international schools and they are working on those in other schools. I've no idea how long this will take.

[MaiPenLai]

A one-year work permit can be issued to a degree holder without teaching subjects, but it is subject to renewal after one year.

How is this any different from someone who has all the education (teaching) degree requirements and/or completes a program such as the one mentioned in the OP?

Are you saying the teaching degree holder does not have to renew his or her work permit on an annual basis?

The crux, I'm told, is not so much the work permit as the teacher's licence. A bachelor's degree holder wanting to work in a private bilingual/EP school in the Bangkok jurisdiction can get a one-year teacher's licence which entitles him/her to a one-year work permit. For the WP to be renewed evidence is required of the 15 credit points. A bachelor's degree holder with the 15 credit points is entitled to a 3-year teacher's licence, which means that the WP will be renewed each year for 3 years (if the licence holder remains at the same school).

All this will change when the new lifetime teachers' licences are issued. I'm told they have been issued to teachers in international schools and they are working on those in other schools. I've no idea how long this will take.

X, you are going to think I am either picking a fight or specifically picking on you as it seems I am responding mostly to your posts in this thread........

I would believe the 3 year deal if only there had been one consistent move in the last 3-4 years by the combination of the MOE or Ministry of Labor but like all things Thai, todays truth is tomorrow's lie. Surely I don't need to give examples. How many Ministers of Education in the last 8 years were there ? Speaking of which, has anyone found out who got all those 500B fees that were collected from teachers for their teachers licenses and continue to this day? Has anyone ever seen one in Foreign hands ? I have not.

I really love living here but at times it truly tests a falangs application of adopted, acquired, or stolen mai pen rai.....

Begging pardon once again for going OT.

MPL

[Xangsamhua]

A one-year work permit can be issued to a degree holder without teaching subjects, but it is subject to renewal after one year.

How is this any different from someone who has all the education (teaching) degree requirements and/or completes a program such as the one mentioned in the OP?

Are you saying the teaching degree holder does not have to renew his or her work permit on an annual basis?

The crux, I'm told, is not so much the work permit as the teacher's licence. A bachelor's degree holder wanting to work in a private bilingual/EP school in the Bangkok jurisdiction can get a one-year teacher's licence which entitles him/her to a one-year work permit. For the WP to be renewed evidence is required of the 15 credit points. A bachelor's degree holder with the 15 credit points is entitled to a 3-year teacher's licence, which means that the WP will be renewed each year for 3 years (if the licence holder remains at the same school).

All this will change when the new lifetime teachers' licences are issued. I'm told they have been issued to teachers in international schools and they are working on those in other schools. I've no idea how long this will take.

X, you are going to think I am either picking a fight or specifically picking on you as it seems I am responding mostly to your posts in this thread........

I would believe the 3 year deal if only there had been one consistent move in the last 3-4 years by the combination of the MOE or Ministry of Labor but like all things Thai, todays truth is tomorrow's lie. Surely I don't need to give examples. How many Ministers of Education in the last 8 years were there ? Speaking of which, has anyone found out who got all those 500B fees that were collected from teachers for their teachers licenses and continue to this day? Has anyone ever seen one in Foreign hands ? I have not.

I really love living here but at times it truly tests a falangs application of adopted, acquired, or stolen mai pen rai.....

Begging pardon once again for going OT.

MPL

I can understand your skepticism, MPL. However, my informant is very experienced and tells me the MoE have been applying this rule in the particular sector it applies to. That is the private bilingual/EP schools under the Bangkok Metropolitan Authority.

I think, either on this thread or others, posters have suggested some schools have a sweetheart arrangement with MoE. If so, perhaps the rules are not always applied, but I don't know anything about that. It seems my school doesn't have sweetheart status.

[mopenyang]

Just did my annual renewal/extension of work permit and visa in one day in Bangkok. Nothing new or unusual was requested and the whole process was uneventful.

[Scott]

Thanks mopenyang. To the best of my knowledge the changes seem to be with new teachers. No one at our school has had any trouble with renewals and extensions.

[Shoho]

I was offered a job in Vietnam, Texas Tech and you have get your degrees certified before they will give you a work permit.

[Scott]

Someone had posted something on another thread about the MOE having a list of either "blacklisted" schools or unaccredited schools. If anyone knows more about this, it would be appreciated. It's one thing to have to check and verify the degree, it's quite another to have to check and verify the school as well!

[stevemiddie]

Someone had posted something on another thread about the MOE having a list of either "blacklisted" schools or unaccredited schools. If anyone knows more about this, it would be appreciated. It's one thing to have to check and verify the degree, it's quite another to have to check and verify the school as well!

The list does not refer to blacklisted schools ( i doubt such a thing exists ) but refers to all so called " universities " that offer " Life Degrees. " or any other university that is not " Accredited " to issue full course degrees.

i.e The MoE in Chonburi ( other provinces may differ ) are ensuring that the degrees come from recognised and reputable universities..............not the " Degree Mills "

Edited June 29, 2007 by stevemiddie

[WapiJohn]

I work, actually I am the English Language Director, for a school near Bangkok. We've now had several months of dealing with the new regulations. This is what I've encountered and I would appreciate the feedback of others about what, if anything his happening where they are. I am wondering how uniform these regulations are being applied.

All new teachers we hire must have a Bachelor's Degree. We were told not even to bother submitting any paperwork to the Ministry of Education unless they have a degree. They will not take TEFL/CELTA etc (although these are a plus if you have a degree).

I might add that all the existing teachers at are school are OK for continuing based on their previous qualifications, of which some don't have degrees. The change is only affecting NEW Teachers.

If the degree holder is from a non-English speaking country (as a first language), They must have a TOEFL or IESLs test. I can't remember the required scores off the top of my head. The MOE in Bangkok has said TOIEC is fine, but the province where our school is located has said no to TOIEC.

They must have police clearance. An exception seems to be if they have been working in Thailand already. They just waived this on a new teacher coming from another province.

Any new teachers that we hire, even if they have been employed in another school start the process from square one. They have to cancel their work permit, Non-immigrant B visa, leave the country and start from scratch. This seems to mean that already employed teachers who don't meet the minimum qualifications, can't leave the school.

How does it work elsewhere or is it about the same?

My school in North East Thailand has been told that the requirements are, Degree OR TEFL ( or similar ) OR Native speaker.

" Up to the school " several teachers at this school do not have a degree ( one has no qualifications and no previous teaching experience whatsoever) All have " B visas " and work permits etc. But no question of police checks so far.

These appear to be the new requirements " Thai Style "

So there is no hard and fast rule.

[Scott]

Thanks, so a lot of what they said are going to be regulations, aren't enforced. It's interesting. Here they are adamant about the police check as well.

[Loaded]

supply and demand

they're choosy where they can afford to be choosy - big-city high-salaried jobs

they're not choosy where they can't afford to be choosy - provincial towns and government schools anywhere

[PeaceBlondie]

supply and demand

they're choosy where they can afford to be choosy - big-city high-salaried jobs

they're not choosy where they can't afford to be choosy - provincial towns and government schools anywhere

Some remote provinces don't even bother with work permits, teacher licenses, help on visas. You're accepted as an ajarn, and no 'formalities' are done, until you need a new visa, at your own expense. So things have changed drastically for some employers who play the game down at the MOE and MOL offices.

[Munted]

I work, actually I am the English Language Director, for a school near Bangkok. We've now had several months of dealing with the new regulations. This is what I've encountered and I would appreciate the feedback of others about what, if anything his happening where they are. I am wondering how uniform these regulations are being applied.

All new teachers we hire must have a Bachelor's Degree. We were told not even to bother submitting any paperwork to the Ministry of Education unless they have a degree. They will not take TEFL/CELTA etc (although these are a plus if you have a degree).

Scott, do you know if three year degrees are acceptable? I'm doing a BTchg at the moment (in NZ) and I've got a T&T TEFL Cert.

Would I get a job at your school?

[Scott]

Sorry for being so late in responding, internet connection problems.

Unfortunately, at our school you wouldn't be able to get a job. From what other's have posted, it sounds like in other provinces you wouldn't have as much trouble. Somewhere along the way, they may get things a little more uniform--then again maybe not.

The people we deal with are clear--must have a Bachelor's (minimum).