Tourist dies scuba diving in Phi Phi

[LivinginKata]

"the sooner authorities ween out these type the better" - why would the authorities "ween out these type?"

They are the source of good "tea money."

Yeah sad ain't it.....

Baht above life here. Money number one.

Exactly correct ... why all the previous posts about experience, regulations, whatever ...

It's all about money ... you pay and you can go scuba diving regardless of age, experience, whatever ... end of that story ... until someone dies ...

Baht trumps everything ...

[Ulic]

Not going to pass judgement on the dive master. The guy could have had a heart attack.

What happened I am not sure. When I dive yes I follow the buddy system but I also

have spare air and am very relaxed underwater. For me that is the judgement the

dive master has to make. How relaxed/comfortable is the diver underwater. A 60

year old first time diver would not be a prime candidate for a course but was doing

what he wanted to do. Yes the dive master should have taken both divers back to the

surface but the student would have also know he had to stick with the group and chose

to stay down. Not sure what happened but it was an accident. Maybe more information

will come to light, maybe not. One thing is for sure, nobody feels worse about what

happened than the dive master. RIP China dude.

[NamKangMan]

The Divemaster to diver ratio is set far too high,especially when he's accompanying novice divers,but this ratio is Padi approved.Imho it should always be a 121 event.As you can see in this incident 2 divers were in trouble at the sametime.The poor divemaster obviously cannot be in 2 places at 1 time,but now the blames on him.Totally unfair upon the Divemaster.

RIP Underwater lady.

He does not have to be in 2 places, he just needs to control the divers.

It's an interesting point though.

What if the diver with the ear ache panicked and headed straight for the surface, showing obviously signs of distress on their ascent?

Does the dive instructor follow and assist the distressed diver, or remain with the diver who is experiencing no difficulty and who is remaining at dive depth?

Given this all happens in a few seconds, the dive instructor must make a choice.

I do not know what the standard operating procedure is for a scenario like this, but with one inexperienced and distressed diver heading for the surface, and another diver appearing fine at the time, I suppose the dive instructor could be forgiven for going to the aid of the distressed diver.

Common sense would dictate the Chinese diver would have seen something is wrong and followed, but it appears he didn't.

There was some suspicion about gas purity in some diving deaths here recently.

In this case, we have a distressed diver, and very shortly after, a deceased diver.

It makes you wonder.

He does not follow. If he has to follow he is not in control, the instructor determines.

You're the diver - you tell me.

If there is one dive instructor and two inexperienced divers, and one of those divers panics, for WHATEVER reason, and heads straight for the surface, who does the dive instructor stay with?

Is there no standard operating procedure for such a scenario?

[stevenl]

Chinese national Minghua Jiang, 62, was recovered unconscious at about noon while scuba diving for the first time .

Shouldn't the first scuba dive be a practice dive in swimming pool?

in belgium , you must train in swimming pool 1 year with very experienced registered instructors followed by accompanied quarry/lakes dives and attempt numerous hours of theory lessons before getting the first certificate (you must also show good general health certificate before starting training), . after getting your fist certificate you're not even allowed to give courses... BUT thailand is thailand ...

don't wonder if somuch incidents happen where the least néo hippies , drug addicts/alcoholics are so often given the dive instructor's jobs

Totally incorrect post.

[stevenl]

The Divemaster to diver ratio is set far too high,especially when he's accompanying novice divers,but this ratio is Padi approved.Imho it should always be a 121 event.As you can see in this incident 2 divers were in trouble at the sametime.The poor divemaster obviously cannot be in 2 places at 1 time,but now the blames on him.Totally unfair upon the Divemaster.

RIP Underwater lady.

He does not have to be in 2 places, he just needs to control the divers.

It's an interesting point though.

What if the diver with the ear ache panicked and headed straight for the surface, showing obviously signs of distress on their ascent?

Does the dive instructor follow and assist the distressed diver, or remain with the diver who is experiencing no difficulty and who is remaining at dive depth?

Given this all happens in a few seconds, the dive instructor must make a choice.

I do not know what the standard operating procedure is for a scenario like this, but with one inexperienced and distressed diver heading for the surface, and another diver appearing fine at the time, I suppose the dive instructor could be forgiven for going to the aid of the distressed diver.

Common sense would dictate the Chinese diver would have seen something is wrong and followed, but it appears he didn't.

There was some suspicion about gas purity in some diving deaths here recently.

In this case, we have a distressed diver, and very shortly after, a deceased diver.

It makes you wonder.

He does not follow. If he has to follow he is not in control, the instructor determines.

You're the diver - you tell me.

If there is one dive instructor and two inexperienced divers, and one of those divers panics, for WHATEVER reason, and heads straight for the surface, who does the dive instructor stay with?

Is there no standard operating procedure for such a scenario?

What don't you understand? If the instructor is in control he can not head for the surface.

[NamKangMan]

Not going to pass judgement on the dive master. The guy could have had a heart attack.

What happened I am not sure. When I dive yes I follow the buddy system but I also

have spare air and am very relaxed underwater. For me that is the judgement the

dive master has to make. How relaxed/comfortable is the diver underwater. A 60

year old first time diver would not be a prime candidate for a course but was doing

what he wanted to do. Yes the dive master should have taken both divers back to the

surface but the student would have also know he had to stick with the group and chose

to stay down. Not sure what happened but it was an accident. Maybe more information

will come to light, maybe not. One thing is for sure, nobody feels worse about what

happened than the dive master. RIP China dude.

Where does it say these divers were on a "course" and they were "students?"

[ljd1308]

From the report it does sound like this was avoidable, but I don't think people should be painting all dive centres in Thailand in the same light.

I learnt to dive here with 2 instructors(one English and one Thai) and from my perspective did everything perfectly. The whole time in the water was one 2 one and the dive instructor having hold of my vest and teaching me all safety requirements. So don't paint everyone with the same brush.

[pattayahenry]

i still remember my medical tests for a thai driving license, it took about 5 seconds. the doctor in his white coat looked at my passport, asked me- what is your country- austria- he said- australia, ok, 100 baht.

[uksomchai]

In reply to NamkangMan

There are various scenarios you could follow. The trouble is there are good and useless instructors wherever you go. It is no different in Thailand.

If as it seems it was a " Discover Scuba Dive " then a good instructor will choose a dive site that has a shallow beach where he can do the required skills in water shallow enough to stand up in or use a fixed line where he would descend with his two divers so he can control the descent and deal with any equalisation problems whilst on a fixed line. If there are problems after leaving the descent line and during the actual dive then the instructor would either signal to the other diver to follow him and the panicked diver to the surface or to physically take the other diver at a controlled ascent speed to the surface and deal with the panicked diver there.

On Koh Pi Pi through all this goes out the window as it is simply all about getting people to sign up regardless of their fitness to do so just to get the commission money. Thankfully this only happens in Pi Pi. Other dive destinations do not operate in the same manner and will actively turn people away who are deemed to be unsuitable for diving.

I wouldn't like to be the Farang in this case as he will cop the full blame regardless !

[berg1666]

Was a dive instructor for many years in Asia and the South Pacific. Have had beginner and reasonably experienced divers bolt on me before (due to panic attacks etc.). Breaks all the rules, but I always over-weighted myself so I could grab them and stop them from ascending too fast.

If one diver did bolt for the surface, I would have grabbed him/her and got him/her under control, before all ascending together if I judged the distressed diver unable to continue. But this doesn't appear to be the case and it sounds like a planned, controlled ascent. Here I would have taken both diver's to the surface with me, and depending on the dive profile, after putting the distressed diver back on the boat, gone back down with the second diver to finish the dive.

One point I would make with all prospective divers anywhere in the world; when you book a dive trip/course, insist on viewing where they fill their tanks. Sight the air intake for the compressor. I have seen some absolute shockers (in first world countries as well); air intakes right close to the generator exhaust, intake on a main road where buses park and idle etc. All it would take would be one rev of a diesel bus to taint and entire tank. I have a sneaking suspicion that bad air may well be behind some of the unexplained deaths we are seeing.

And there is no reason a reasonably fit 62 year old cannot go diving. My father is still diving regularly at 70. At the end of the day it is all about personal responsibility; you sign the clearance form, you judge that you can handle it. That said I have refused people over the years who I just didn't think were up to it, including right on point of entry, no matter what they declared on a piece of paper.

[F4UCorsair]

Chinese national Minghua Jiang, 62, was recovered unconscious at about noon while scuba diving for the first time .

Shouldn't the first scuba dive be a practice dive in swimming pool?

in belgium , you must train in swimming pool 1 year with very experienced registered instructors followed by accompanied quarry/lakes dives and attempt numerous hours of theory lessons before getting the first certificate (you must also show good general health certificate before starting training), . after getting your fist certificate you're not even allowed to give courses... BUT thailand is thailand ...

don't wonder if somuch incidents happen where the least néo hippies , drug addicts/alcoholics are so often given the dive instructor's jobs

Totally incorrect post.

Agree stevenl.

If you need to train for a year in a swimming pool before going diving, there is clearly something wrong with the training, or the mental capacity of those training (either instructor or student, or perhaps both!). Maybe that's a pool training session only once a quarter, 4 in total? I did my training a long time ago, about 1976, I think, and my memory may not be accurate, but I don't think it was more than about 6 pool sessions, maybe less.

I could teach my parrot all there is to know in a month, including pool sessions, and let me assure you, the term "bird brain" wasn't coined for no reason.

[Basil B]

As a none professional diver with over 400 dives who trained over 20 years ago I would like to add my thoughts...

One instructor two students: personally for open water and discover scuba one to one, or one instructor two students one "professional" diver "riding shotgun" or buddy second student, I do not know if it happened here but assume one diver has ear problems and starts to surface on his own, instructor signals other student to surface but the other student does not obey, what does he do?

Medical certificate: AFAIK for PADI it is self certification, complete the form tick the right boxes and you are fit to dive, else go get a medical certificate "fit to dive".

Pool Dive: AFAIK for PADI it is mandatory for Open Water, but not Discover Scuba.

Seems to me the instructor, dive centre and boat captain have a few awkward questions to answer...

[silverado]

mister F4Ucorsair , just once for trying to silence your irony though i believe it would be just impossible :
a quarter is just enough for a warm up (just swimming without flippers and stretching) before the training its self....

[rosst]

Sad....

If it really was his 1st time diving then there is no excuse for leaving him alone underwater ! Negligence totally..

My thoughts exactly, never, never leave your buddy, what is it with these idiots.

As experienced divers we do not do that shit, with a first time diver, absolute bulshit, throw the book at them. should lose his instructors qualification for a start, assuming he has one, which I doubt.

[Fookhaht]

For a taste of reality--how many tourists REALLY die in the sea and roads in Thailand--follow Richard Barrow on Twitter.

The English media only report a small percentage of the real carnage. Richard has his fingers on many more sources. It's astounding what goes on.

[X pat]

RIP.

It took six weeks of professional instruction in the USA to pass my scuba certification. Class room theory, swimming pool orientation of gear and practice in 8 feet of water.

a extremely difficult beach dive walking with full gear through large breaking waves, cold water, limited visibly, kelp and a strong surge.

we had to swim out until we were in 30 feet of water, descend to the bottom, flood our masks and demonstrate we could clear ours masks by breathing in with our regulators and exhale with our noses to clear the mask. then we had to remove our BC and tanks completely to demonstrate we could take off our gear in a emergency.

the next day was a boat dive at Anacapa island to 50 feet, then ascend without your regulator to demonstrate proper emergency ascent.

the instructor were ex Marines, I was 22 years old and it was really hard doing the mask clear test.

the buddy system was in place from the moment we were in any water.

This sounds like the same course I took at the navy seal school back in 1952.

[Balance]

If this was the first time out for the tourists then the diver with equalization issues and the man who died should have not been allowed to descend until both had equalized at 3 meters and again at 10 meters and had achieved neutral buoyancy. They should not have been allowed to exceed 16 meters in depth.

[johnlee2016]

I hold an advanced open water diving certification from PADI; I have been diving for 19 years with more than 700 dives all over the world.

I have read some of the comments and disagree with many of them. Of course, it's sad what happened, but it's not necessarily the dive master's fault. All scuba divers are supposed to adhere to the buddy system - that system means if your buddy goes up, you also go up; you stay near your buddy at all times. This means the deceased diver may be at fault - maybe the dive master took care of the other diver (who is the deceased's buddy under the buddy rules) and motioned for the deceased to join, and maybe the deceased decided not to join; underwater, the dive master cannot physically force someone; he is already taking care of one person with a problem; the other person should follow them - this is the buddy system. If the deceased saw the dive master take his/her buddy and they motioned to the deceased to follow and the deceased did not, then it is the deceased person's fault.

As a diver, you are responsible for your own safety and you are supposed to follow your buddy.

[stevenl]

I hold an advanced open water diving certification from PADI; I have been diving for 19 years with more than 700 dives all over the world.

I have read some of the comments and disagree with many of them. Of course, it's sad what happened, but it's not necessarily the dive master's fault. All scuba divers are supposed to adhere to the buddy system - that system means if your buddy goes up, you also go up; you stay near your buddy at all times. This means the deceased diver may be at fault - maybe the dive master took care of the other diver (who is the deceased's buddy under the buddy rules) and motioned for the deceased to join, and maybe the deceased decided not to join; underwater, the dive master cannot physically force someone; he is already taking care of one person with a problem; the other person should follow them - this is the buddy system. If the deceased saw the dive master take his/her buddy and they motioned to the deceased to follow and the deceased did not, then it is the deceased person's fault.

As a diver, you are responsible for your own safety and you are supposed to follow your buddy.

All those rules go out the window when it concerns non-certified divers, like was the case here. These are always the instructor's responsibility.

[johnlee2016]

I hold an advanced open water diving certification from PADI; I have been diving for 19 years with more than 700 dives all over the world.

I have read some of the comments and disagree with many of them. Of course, it's sad what happened, but it's not necessarily the dive master's fault. All scuba divers are supposed to adhere to the buddy system - that system means if your buddy goes up, you also go up; you stay near your buddy at all times. This means the deceased diver may be at fault - maybe the dive master took care of the other diver (who is the deceased's buddy under the buddy rules) and motioned for the deceased to join, and maybe the deceased decided not to join; underwater, the dive master cannot physically force someone; he is already taking care of one person with a problem; the other person should follow them - this is the buddy system. If the deceased saw the dive master take his/her buddy and they motioned to the deceased to follow and the deceased did not, then it is the deceased person's fault.

As a diver, you are responsible for your own safety and you are supposed to follow your buddy.

All those rules go out the window when it concerns non-certified divers, like was the case here. These are always the instructor's responsibility.

How do you know the deceased was not certified?

[stevenl]

I hold an advanced open water diving certification from PADI; I have been diving for 19 years with more than 700 dives all over the world.

I have read some of the comments and disagree with many of them. Of course, it's sad what happened, but it's not necessarily the dive master's fault. All scuba divers are supposed to adhere to the buddy system - that system means if your buddy goes up, you also go up; you stay near your buddy at all times. This means the deceased diver may be at fault - maybe the dive master took care of the other diver (who is the deceased's buddy under the buddy rules) and motioned for the deceased to join, and maybe the deceased decided not to join; underwater, the dive master cannot physically force someone; he is already taking care of one person with a problem; the other person should follow them - this is the buddy system. If the deceased saw the dive master take his/her buddy and they motioned to the deceased to follow and the deceased did not, then it is the deceased person's fault.

As a diver, you are responsible for your own safety and you are supposed to follow your buddy.

All those rules go out the window when it concerns non-certified divers, like was the case here. These are always the instructor's responsibility.

How do you know the deceased was not certified?

In the OP it says he was scuba diving for the first time.

[rjcampbe]

RIP.

It took six weeks of professional instruction in the USA to pass my scuba certification. Class room theory, swimming pool orientation of gear and practice in 8 feet of water.

a extremely difficult beach dive walking with full gear through large breaking waves, cold water, limited visibly, kelp and a strong surge.

we had to swim out until we were in 30 feet of water, descend to the bottom, flood our masks and demonstrate we could clear ours masks by breathing in with our regulators and exhale with our noses to clear the mask. then we had to remove our BC and tanks completely to demonstrate we could take off our gear in a emergency.

the next day was a boat dive at Anacapa island to 50 feet, then ascend without your regulator to demonstrate proper emergency ascent.

the instructor were ex Marines, I was 22 years old and it was really hard doing the mask clear test.

the buddy system was in place from the moment we were in any water.

You and I have similar experiences... I went through a program just what you described back in the mid 80's when I was certified. I was in the Navy in San Diego then, and I took the class on base through the Rec department. The instructor was literally a Seal Team instructor from Coronado... His name was Ralph Stogsdall and he could have been the <deleted> drill instructor from central casting. He drilled the hell out of us, and I have been thankful many times.

Back then, the sport diving industry was very well self regulated. Today, things have changed. Even in the US things are not as they were. There a a lot of "certified" divers out there today that I wouldn't dive with.

I think the entire concept of these one day, try it out, resort dives just demonstrates that it's NOT just a Thailand issue. It goes all the way up to the certifying bodies and equipment manufacturers that set the policy and create these instant "just add water" certifications... Back in my day (I always swore I'd never use that expression :-) you couldn't even buy some gear, or get a tank filled, without showing your certification. Today, they will drop any fool over the side with a bubble helmet on and absolutely zero training, and in many cases the "diver" may not even be a competent swimmer, and nobody bats an eye.

it is no wonder that there are as many deaths as there are given the way the training and safety measures of the whole industry have weakened. Then, when you take those lax standards and training requirements into a place like Thailand where there is little emphasis on training and the enforcement of rules and procedures is practically non existent, why would you expect anything else?

I think that rather than just shouting "Thailand isn't safe" (which we all know by the way, and I'm not contesting....), I think divers should call out the certifying bodies to step up their role in championing safety for sport diving and setting reasonable requirements that prevent this kind of senseless death. The certifying organizations resort dive "standards" that allow untrained people to dive in open water are foolish and irresponsible. Maybe it is time for someone to test whether or not it also makes them negligent. You can be sure the rules would change quickly then....

RIP to the victim.

[Basil B]

Sad....

If it really was his 1st time diving then there is no excuse for leaving him alone underwater ! Negligence totally..

Reading the story again...

was one of two divers accompanied by British dive instructor....

does not say it was their first dive...

does not say in whether the instructor was instructing them or was mealy a dive leader...

does not say they (the students) were not qualified divers...

[stevenl]

Sad....

If it really was his 1st time diving then there is no excuse for leaving him alone underwater ! Negligence totally..

Reading the story again...

was one of two divers accompanied by British dive instructor....

does not say it was their first dive...

does not say in whether the instructor was instructing them or was mealy a dive leader...

does not say they (the students) were not qualified divers...

It says "while scuba diving for the first time", seems pretty clear to me. That also fits with the information I received from DC's on Phi Phi.

[stevenl]

RIP.

It took six weeks of professional instruction in the USA to pass my scuba certification. Class room theory, swimming pool orientation of gear and practice in 8 feet of water.

a extremely difficult beach dive walking with full gear through large breaking waves, cold water, limited visibly, kelp and a strong surge.

we had to swim out until we were in 30 feet of water, descend to the bottom, flood our masks and demonstrate we could clear ours masks by breathing in with our regulators and exhale with our noses to clear the mask. then we had to remove our BC and tanks completely to demonstrate we could take off our gear in a emergency.

the next day was a boat dive at Anacapa island to 50 feet, then ascend without your regulator to demonstrate proper emergency ascent.

the instructor were ex Marines, I was 22 years old and it was really hard doing the mask clear test.

the buddy system was in place from the moment we were in any water.

You and I have similar experiences... I went through a program just what you described back in the mid 80's when I was certified. I was in the Navy in San Diego then, and I took the class on base through the Rec department. The instructor was literally a Seal Team instructor from Coronado... His name was Ralph Stogsdall and he could have been the <deleted> drill instructor from central casting. He drilled the hell out of us, and I have been thankful many times.

Back then, the sport diving industry was very well self regulated. Today, things have changed. Even in the US things are not as they were. There a a lot of "certified" divers out there today that I wouldn't dive with.

I think the entire concept of these one day, try it out, resort dives just demonstrates that it's NOT just a Thailand issue. It goes all the way up to the certifying bodies and equipment manufacturers that set the policy and create these instant "just add water" certifications... Back in my day (I always swore I'd never use that expression :-) you couldn't even buy some gear, or get a tank filled, without showing your certification. Today, they will drop any fool over the side with a bubble helmet on and absolutely zero training, and in many cases the "diver" may not even be a competent swimmer, and nobody bats an eye.

it is no wonder that there are as many deaths as there are given the way the training and safety measures of the whole industry have weakened. Then, when you take those lax standards and training requirements into a place like Thailand where there is little emphasis on training and the enforcement of rules and procedures is practically non existent, why would you expect anything else?

I think that rather than just shouting "Thailand isn't safe" (which we all know by the way, and I'm not contesting....), I think divers should call out the certifying bodies to step up their role in championing safety for sport diving and setting reasonable requirements that prevent this kind of senseless death. The certifying organizations resort dive "standards" that allow untrained people to dive in open water are foolish and irresponsible. Maybe it is time for someone to test whether or not it also makes them negligent. You can be sure the rules would change quickly then....

RIP to the victim.

"it is no wonder that there are as many deaths"

Are there? Looking forward to your statistics.

[Basil B]

Sad....

If it really was his 1st time diving then there is no excuse for leaving him alone underwater ! Negligence totally..

Reading the story again...

was one of two divers accompanied by British dive instructor....

does not say it was their first dive...

does not say in whether the instructor was instructing them or was mealy a dive leader...

does not say they (the students) were not qualified divers...

It says "while scuba diving for the first time", seems pretty clear to me. That also fits with the information I received from DC's on Phi Phi.

Not me, could be first time since qualifying...

[stevenl]

Sad....

If it really was his 1st time diving then there is no excuse for leaving him alone underwater ! Negligence totally..

Reading the story again...

was one of two divers accompanied by British dive instructor....

does not say it was their first dive...

does not say in whether the instructor was instructing them or was mealy a dive leader...

does not say they (the students) were not qualified divers...

It says "while scuba diving for the first time", seems pretty clear to me. That also fits with the information I received from DC's on Phi Phi.

Not me, could be first time since qualifying...

Making up things now.

[billd766]

As a non swimmer and a non diver can I ask a couple of questions?

How often and by whom are the instructors re-qualified? Do they take a 6 monthly or yearly re-test or are they self certified?

Are there professional bodies that dive instructors have to be members of before they are allowed to teach or become instructors? If they are, is there some sort of licence that must be displayed or carried?

[travelingmike]

I'm not a diver, but I would have thought it a standard operating procedure that both divers surface, with the instructor, once the minor medical emergency was reported by one of the divers.

That would be the end of the dive, cos they can't go back down.

Someone would be asking for a refund ...... can't have that.

Sounds like it was an open water 10 meter dive.

Surely, no need to end the dive, due to resurfacing, at that depth.

However, there is some truth to what you say, baht over life is the Phuket way.

Yes they could have easily surfaced and instructor could have continued dive with remaining client. Mistake that the instructor now has to carry the rest of his life. Sad for all.

[Sheryl]

A reminder to please stay civil. No attacks.