EM from Global House..any experiences.

[ThaiFelix]

Hoping someone can please help me here. I went chasing some EM-1 today and my first stop was Thai Watsadu. Only thing on the shelf was labled EM-A at 65? baht per litre. This confused me at first as I didnt think the activated product would be available off the shelf due to its short shelf life. In addition, the staff there could not tell me whether it was in fact the finished product or the base EM-1 mislabled. Having seen reference on here to EM being available at Global House I then ventured there.

At Global House they had a product labled EM (only) but the mixing formula related to me by the sales lady was totally different to what my research from the internet had led me to believe. She stated a ratio of 2 parts EM, 5 parts molasses, and 100 parts water. A few sites I had looked at online had said 1 EM, 1 mol. and 18 litres of water to make up a 20 litre brew??

I have attached a photo of the product I purchased from Global and am hoping someone out there has had some experience with it and can advise me. I would like to use it in my new fish pond to condition the water before adding fish plus use some in the new vege garden. Many thanks in advance.

[IsaanAussie]

I am not familiar with this brand but have used a few different EM brews. The difference will be in the type of microbes used and the combination. The normal one litre bottles are "inactive" or dormant. It requires molasses and water to activate. 5 litres, who knows? The usual first step is 1,1, 18 as you stated, this is to increase the population of biology and is done anerobically. From there it is a matter of dilution with water to suit the application.

The orginal EMRO product used to be 80 baht per litre and the "copies" about 50 baht, so I am guessing this is one of the generic brands. Not necessarily a bad thing depending on the bacteria and fungi used.

[ThaiFelix]

I am not familiar with this brand but have used a few different EM brews. The difference will be in the type of microbes used and the combination. The normal one litre bottles are "inactive" or dormant. It requires molasses and water to activate. 5 litres, who knows? The usual first step is 1,1, 18 as you stated, this is to increase the population of biology and is done anerobically. From there it is a matter of dilution with water to suit the application.

The orginal EMRO product used to be 80 baht per litre and the "copies" about 50 baht, so I am guessing this is one of the generic brands. Not necessarily a bad thing depending on the bacteria and fungi used.

Thanks IsaanAussie, yeah it sure looks like a generic and it was 245 baht for the 5 litres. And yes what you say makes sense, it probably depends on the type and concentration of the microbes in it. The 1:1:18 would be applicable to the "original" product. Worse comes to worse I guess I could just trial it with a small batch and see how it comes out but 100 litres sounds an awful lot of water. I am now wondering if she was confused and the 100 litres of water was the dilution after activation?

How did you find the results after using the EM, was it worth the effort?

[IsaanAussie]

The maths is the same. One litre yields 20 litres of activated EM, 5 litres yields 100. In the purchased culture form your brew will have a shelf life of many months, just keep it out of the sun and the lid closed. Mix up as much EMA as you will need over the period of a month. Dilute that and apply as needed. Once you have it activated remember this is a culture of live organisms that need to be fed else it will die off.

Yes the results are great and there is nothing wrong with the price.

[ThaiFelix]

The maths is the same. One litre yields 20 litres of activated EM, 5 litres yields 100. In the purchased culture form your brew will have a shelf life of many months, just keep it out of the sun and the lid closed. Mix up as much EMA as you will need over the period of a month. Dilute that and apply as needed. Once you have it activated remember this is a culture of live organisms that need to be fed else it will die off.

Yes the results are great and there is nothing wrong with the price.

Mmmm ...sorry, I am a bit confused with your maths. Maybe you, or I, are missing something. Globals advice equates to a yield of 107 litres of activated EM (EMA) from 2 lts of EM base (EM1). Shes telling me to mix 2 lts EM1 + 5 lts mol. + 100 lts of water = a 107 litre brew. Therefore 1 lt EM1 yields approx. 53 lts EMA according to her, 2 1/2 times the norm?? Thanks again.

[IsaanAussie]

Since the biology is liable to be different, follow their instructions. The ratio of molasses (food) is higher is of more interest to me than the water. This would indicate a different microbe population.

[ThaiFelix]

Since the biology is liable to be different, follow their instructions. The ratio of molasses (food) is higher is of more interest to me than the water. This would indicate a different microbe population.

Thanks IsaanAussie. Ok I get where you are coming from: Higher microbes so more food (mol) and more water in turn. I'll give it a go. I am quite exited about it actually. Although I have composted a lot there seems to be a serious lack of worms in the garden and that concerns me. Hoping this may do the trick. Cant hurt.

[IsaanAussie]

If you get the chance, run two compost piles made up the same. Add activated EM to one pile and not the other. You should notice a large difference in the temperature in the EM pile. My pig manure compost is finished within 3 weeks. Go easy on the EM in the pond to start with.

I would also suggest you cut back on the amount of molasses, sounds like too much to me.

[chenposeb]

I have had great results with EM bought from Global House, Mega Home and a local vendor.

I think molasses on it's own can be pretty good for your soil microbes anyway. I normally mix up a 3 litre batch (the large cola bottles are great as they can be 'burped' easily - just make sure everyone knows it's NOT cola in there) every couple of weeks. Then I water that down and spray it at the roots of my heavily mulched plants with a hand pumped sprayer, or even a watering can.

I also chuck a load in the compost pile from time to time.

Since using it, there have been plants that looked like they were dead become lush and green.

[ThaiFelix]

I have had great results with EM bought from Global House, Mega Home and a local vendor.

I think molasses on it's own can be pretty good for your soil microbes anyway. I normally mix up a 3 litre batch (the large cola bottles are great as they can be 'burped' easily - just make sure everyone knows it's NOT cola in there) every couple of weeks. Then I water that down and spray it at the roots of my heavily mulched plants with a hand pumped sprayer, or even a watering can.

I also chuck a load in the compost pile from time to time.

Since using it, there have been plants that looked like they were dead become lush and green.

Thanks for reply chenposeb. Do you use the same formula as above ie. 2 lts EM1 + 5 lts mol. + 100 lts of water ?

[chenposeb]

(It's not very scientific, but hopefully it will let you know that it's not too specific to still get great results.)

I use a small glass which is perhaps about 100mls, i use 1 glass of EM, then 2 glasses of molasses, then top it up with water from my pond leaving about and inch from the top for air before tightly closing it. (I know you already know not to use tap water as the bleach will kill it but just a reminder) I use a 3 lt bottle of cola, (I even used a 2 lt bottle once with the same amount of 'em' and 'mol' in it). I leave it somewhere dark and warm and check it once or twice a day. If I can't squeeze the sides of the bottle without any movement then I 'burp' it and close the lid tight again. After about a week or when I have lots of white floaty things in there I start to use it. I normally mix it differently depending on if it's for the leaves or the roots. A little bit stronger around the roots probably about 1 part 'new' EM mixture to 50-100 water (again from the pond or stored rain water or well water), and pretty weak for the leaves, probably mix about 1 part to 150-200water to be used as a fine spray.

I also keep a little production line of the finished EM so I never really run out, mixing up big batches isn't very practical for me even though I have 8 rai.

I got one of those hand pump sprayers from one of those stores, you just wear it like a bag on your back and pressure it up by pumping it. If you are doing a really large space I have seen a device you put on the end of your hose that gives a good mix, but haven't seen it over here yet.

Even if you just mix water and molasses and spray that you will get good results if you have bacteria there already. Just try to treat the good bacteria like your little pets and keep them alive and growing

Hope that helps

Also, if you eat rice, try to keep the rice water in a bottle next to your EM and after a week you should have a nice little blend of your own bacteria in there

...Oh another thing, I said about the tap water, but so many people forget about the sun, if you leave your bottles out in the sun you will kill everything.

[ThaiFelix]

(It's not very scientific, but hopefully it will let you know that it's not too specific to still get great results.)

I use a small glass which is perhaps about 100mls, i use 1 glass of EM, then 2 glasses of molasses, then top it up with water from my pond leaving about and inch from the top for air before tightly closing it. (I know you already know not to use tap water as the bleach will kill it but just a reminder) I use a 3 lt bottle of cola, (I even used a 2 lt bottle once with the same amount of 'em' and 'mol' in it). I leave it somewhere dark and warm and check it once or twice a day. If I can't squeeze the sides of the bottle without any movement then I 'burp' it and close the lid tight again. After about a week or when I have lots of white floaty things in there I start to use it. I normally mix it differently depending on if it's for the leaves or the roots. A little bit stronger around the roots probably about 1 part 'new' EM mixture to 50-100 water (again from the pond or stored rain water or well water), and pretty weak for the leaves, probably mix about 1 part to 150-200water to be used as a fine spray.

I also keep a little production line of the finished EM so I never really run out, mixing up big batches isn't very practical for me even though I have 8 rai.

I got one of those hand pump sprayers from one of those stores, you just wear it like a bag on your back and pressure it up by pumping it. If you are doing a really large space I have seen a device you put on the end of your hose that gives a good mix, but haven't seen it over here yet.

Even if you just mix water and molasses and spray that you will get good results if you have bacteria there already. Just try to treat the good bacteria like your little pets and keep them alive and growing

Hope that helps

Also, if you eat rice, try to keep the rice water in a bottle next to your EM and after a week you should have a nice little blend of your own bacteria in there

...Oh another thing, I said about the tap water, but so many people forget about the sun, if you leave your bottles out in the sun you will kill everything.

Thanks chenposeb, a very informative reply. I will give it a go.

[Foreverford]

Issan Aussie is the wizard for this and he could write an encyclopedia in regards to the many different types of EM he has used and nurtured. His soils and farm operations were tops in Thailand due to primarily the use of EM in his entire process.

I believe I might have been the one to turn him onto this almost a decade ago as I was knowledgeable that it stopped the smell of hogs when you used it in their water. IA took it to a level that may never be approached again as he bathed his hogs and pens and manure and compost and soils in the solution in many and different varying forms. I purchased some of his composts and they were amazing.

Okay I don't care who says what I would never mix anything off the shelf unless it came from the creator himself in Japan at any other ratio than the previous mentioned 1:1:18. My wife brewed her own EM in a 55 gallon (200 liter) drum but it was a long and ridiculous process as far as I was concerned as we would buy ten liters of EM and of molasses and in a few days could have 200 liters of perfect product. I was shocked once when I went to disc in a bunch of heavy rice straw and the assorted cut stubble and weeds and after the first couple of passes with the old Ford i was looking at what I was doing and there wasn't a trace of straw or stubble to be seen on the extremely sanitary soil. I then remembered we had dumped about 100 liters into our klong that surrounds the farm and had pumped it down with our three inch pump to a couple water canons to get the soil wet to turn and prepare for a planting of pah tueng (sunn hemp). the microbes had done their trick as that nasty straw became luscious soil. This year the wife went out and sprayed with a backpack sprayer a 30% solution over the entire rice field after harvest and before tractor work and again great results. the stuff is better than magic and our ponds always are getting assorted non scientific doses of EM and the catfish just get bigger and water stays scum free.

Use a 2% solution in a sprayer and topically spray any and all plants as much as once weekly. I have used it where dogs are confined to small areas and there feces and urine is a 365 a day problem of neglect and the smells are foul ofrom much too crowded dogs. I used 10% solution and in a day all odor is gone. IA's pig sties smelled as if you were in a medical clinic as one day i was in the middle of them and I said to him you I can not smell one bit of hog odor at all. Everyone knows going down the road when you are a few kilometers downwind of hog farm you know you are a few kilometers downwind of a hog farm as you don't need to ever see them as the smell will tell.

I could go on and on in regards to the benefits of using it but again if someone tells you to mix EM any different than we have said go buy it somewhere else or don't listen to them. EM-1 and use 1:1:18 and use as much as you can all the time for any and everything; ground sprays can have much higher %'s than topical though be careful if you have new young plants that you don't have too high %. if my ford was so inclined I'd like to give it some to drink in the radiator but it seems to fine on the diet I have been feeding it so will let well enough alone on that and as the sun sets i say happy trails to you with Fords Foreverrrrr

[ThaiFelix]

Thanks for the very informative post foreverford (oh I shudder saying that as I am a Holden [GMC] man, Ford = found on rubbish dumps haha)

Yeah yo have given me some good insights there. The original EM from Japan I would love to buy but we have little choice up here in the sticks....do you know where to source in the Udon Thani/Khon Kaen area?

I have my first batch ready now. A 20 litre container with an air lock I made and a 5 litre I have to burp every day. Both I have been testing every day and both have been doing what most say and that is the PH dropping a point or so each day to the 3.5 level which is where it has been sitting now for about 7 days. Very little in the way of white flakes initially, more like a slight, brown froth on the top now but smells sweet and sour with a slight alcohol odour. I have had to do very little burping with the 5 lt batch (the 20 lt is automatic with the air lock so I cant notice) until the last 3 days but that also corresponds with the fact that it has been quite cool here up until 3 days ago and then the heat has come on with a vengence. I imagine this means the fermentation process slows down considerably with lower temperatures.

I have a recently built a cement fish pond (about 9,000 liters) which I soon want to add tup tim after conditioning the pond. The pond has 2 x 6,000 lt per hr pumps, one feeding a bio-filter with waterfall at one end and the other running to a bog filter at the other end. I have minimal plants in the bog filter at present because of the lack of nutrients due to the fact I only have a couple of goldfish in there at the moment which are my "mine canaries". Starting two days ago I have been adding 400 mls of EM-A each day which I have been diluting in a 9 liter bucket and slowly adding via the bio-filter over about an hour. I believe the formula there is 1:1000 and to add slowly. One thing that concerns me here, and I am hoping you or IsaanAussie my have some knowledge, is that I currently have a UV filter in each pump line. This is due to the fact that the pond gets a lot of direct sun and it appears they are working very efficiently (along with the bio/mechanical filters) as the water is always crystal clear apart from a bit of green algae on the sides and bottom of the pond and a bit of brown on the waterfall rocks. Because you and others have warned me re EM-A in direct sunlight, I am concerned about the affects of the UV filters on EM-A treated water?? I do intend to turn off at least one of the UV filters once I have introduced the tup tim because algae is a desired food source for them (I will supplement with pellets as well) and possibly the two if needed. I am interested to hear your comments on this.

Your comments about IsaanAussie's odour-free piggery due to the addition of EM-A has got me thinking about my 'gop'. We have about 350 gop in a 2 1/2 x 3 mt tank and need to change the water every second day due to the large amount of smelly faeces and polluted water now they are nearly full size. Starting tommorrow I am planning to trial the addition of EM-A to their water (ratio 1:1000) to ascertain its affects. We also have about 500 pla duk big oi in a same sized tank. Your comments about your catfish growth/health has prompted me to trial EM with them as well.

If after all this I have any left for the garden and compost bins hahaha I will start treating the gardens regularly. I can see now why you have a production line of EM-A.

Another concern I have is ants. We have a lot of ant problems here, particularly the two small varieties of biting red ants. With all that molasses laced EM-A being spread around I am wondering what this will do to the ant populations. I have been using Borax mixed with sugar to try to contain them but they seem to get switched on with it after a day or two and bury or fill my bait containers with dirt?? It is "commercial grade" borax and thus I have been trying lesser and lesser ratios of borax to sugar (8:1, 10:1, 12:1) to no avail. Next couple of days I am going to trial a mixture of the borax with ground gop/pla duk food to see if that works better.

Any suggestions to the above would be greatly appreciated. (and dont take my criticism of Fords too seriously, you have it already so I guess you just have to live with it haha!!)

Thaifelix

[loong]

ThaiFelix,

I have often seen posts advocating mixing borax with sugar to eliminate ants. In my experience, very few ants in Thailand are attracted to sugar. A soup made with catfish heads(10 Baht/bag in the local market), sticky rice or bone marrow is much more effective.

[ThaiFelix]

ThaiFelix,

I have often seen posts advocating mixing borax with sugar to eliminate ants. In my experience, very few ants in Thailand are attracted to sugar. A soup made with catfish heads(10 Baht/bag in the local market), sticky rice or bone marrow is much more effective.

Yes Loong, that is what I have found. Some go for it and some dont. And if they do go for it they bury it after a couple of days as though they have sussed out it is poisonous. That is why I am going to try out the high protein fish food in place of sugar. I have already got the pellets soaking so will try that first but if that doesnt give the desired results I will take up your suggested alternatives, thanks.

ThaiFelix

[ThaiKneeTim]

Ants don't bite, they squirt formic acid!

[ThaiFelix]

Issan Aussie is the wizard for this and he could write an encyclopedia in regards to the many different types of EM he has used and nurtured. His soils and farm operations were tops in Thailand due to primarily the use of EM in his entire process.

I believe I might have been the one to turn him onto this almost a decade ago as I was knowledgeable that it stopped the smell of hogs when you used it in their water. IA took it to a level that may never be approached again as he bathed his hogs and pens and manure and compost and soils in the solution in many and different varying forms. I purchased some of his composts and they were amazing.

Okay I don't care who says what I would never mix anything off the shelf unless it came from the creator himself in Japan at any other ratio than the previous mentioned 1:1:18. My wife brewed her own EM in a 55 gallon (200 liter) drum but it was a long and ridiculous process as far as I was concerned as we would buy ten liters of EM and of molasses and in a few days could have 200 liters of perfect product. I was shocked once when I went to disc in a bunch of heavy rice straw and the assorted cut stubble and weeds and after the first couple of passes with the old Ford i was looking at what I was doing and there wasn't a trace of straw or stubble to be seen on the extremely sanitary soil. I then remembered we had dumped about 100 liters into our klong that surrounds the farm and had pumped it down with our three inch pump to a couple water canons to get the soil wet to turn and prepare for a planting of pah tueng (sunn hemp). the microbes had done their trick as that nasty straw became luscious soil. This year the wife went out and sprayed with a backpack sprayer a 30% solution over the entire rice field after harvest and before tractor work and again great results. the stuff is better than magic and our ponds always are getting assorted non scientific doses of EM and the catfish just get bigger and water stays scum free.

Use a 2% solution in a sprayer and topically spray any and all plants as much as once weekly. I have used it where dogs are confined to small areas and there feces and urine is a 365 a day problem of neglect and the smells are foul ofrom much too crowded dogs. I used 10% solution and in a day all odor is gone. IA's pig sties smelled as if you were in a medical clinic as one day i was in the middle of them and I said to him you I can not smell one bit of hog odor at all. Everyone knows going down the road when you are a few kilometers downwind of hog farm you know you are a few kilometers downwind of a hog farm as you don't need to ever see them as the smell will tell.

I could go on and on in regards to the benefits of using it but again if someone tells you to mix EM any different than we have said go buy it somewhere else or don't listen to them. EM-1 and use 1:1:18 and use as much as you can all the time for any and everything; ground sprays can have much higher %'s than topical though be careful if you have new young plants that you don't have too high %. if my ford was so inclined I'd like to give it some to drink in the radiator but it seems to fine on the diet I have been feeding it so will let well enough alone on that and as the sun sets i say happy trails to you with Fords Foreverrrrr

Hey sorry Foreverford, I missed the Quicksilver clip the first read, I thought it was one of those Thaivisa adverts they keep jamming the site up with.

One question I forgot previously was with regard to EM and salt. When we first got this batch of pla duk I not long discovered they were infected with some bacterial infection that reminded me of Ebola...just seemed to eat away at the flesh. Now when a do a 20 - 50% water change twice a week I add a couple of handfulls of salt with the new water. We have not lost a single fish since. Now and again you get a couple that must spike each other when in a feeding frenzy but they heal quite quickly. Not sure about adding both salt and EM so I am contemplating doing away with the salt once I start dosing with EM and just watching them closely.

[ThaiFelix]

Ants don't bite, they squirt formic acid!

Yeah my wife says they "pee pee on you and it hurts" haha!

[IsaanAussie]

I'll write a full response t tomorrow. But in short, UV filters are to kill bacteria. Why would you want to do that and use also bacteria to treat the water? One or the other. Swimming pool for people or pond for fish and a natural ecosystem. The waterfall is great for aeration.

[green thumb]

Hey sorry Foreverford, I missed the Quicksilver clip the first read, I thought it was one of those Thaivisa adverts they keep jamming the site up with.

One question I forgot previously was with regard to EM and salt. When we first got this batch of pla duk I not long discovered they were infected with some bacterial infection that reminded me of Ebola...just seemed to eat away at the flesh. Now when a do a 20 - 50% water change twice a week I add a couple of handfulls of salt with the new water. We have not lost a single fish since. Now and again you get a couple that must spike each other when in a feeding frenzy but they heal quite quickly. Not sure about adding both salt and EM so I am contemplating doing away with the salt once I start dosing with EM and just watching them closely.

When I was involved with Salmon enhancement we used a mild salt treatment on the incubating eggs and even the adults we were holding. Both the eggs and adults would get a fungus growth. A 20min treatment was all that was needed. The next day most of the fungus had fallen off. Worked a treat as a natural treatment.

[loong]

Ants don't bite, they squirt formic acid!

I don't know about all ants, but many bite and then squirt formic acid into the wound

[chenposeb]

Sorry for short sentences but trying not to ramble on too much.

I love all the ants on my farm. They help me to look after the plants. I wouldn't want to kill them. I rarely get bitten by them now.

Now back to my main worry.

Why are you using borax? It is a fungicide and a herbicide and you're trying to improve your soil/compost?

Your EM bacteria will be trying to get it on with all the good fungi and find there's nothing there to party with.

Loongs advice about the catfish heads sounds better, without the borax I see it like being a peace offering to any angry ants. Without going into microbiology too deeply, your plants need these fungi to grow stronger. If you're sticking it around your garden/farm to kill ants you're killing your bacteria/fungi relationship.

One of my ponds is a big hole in ground (20m x 40m), no treatment, tons of fish, every rains season we get a whole load of new ones. It doesn't smell and the fish are there all year round, not crystal clear, but if it was I think all the kingfishers and others I get hanging around would have cleaned it out by now. I keep meaning to get some aeration but never had the time, I just keep a 'good' bacteria balance and no chemicals on the farm. Try to 'read' your garden/farm a bit any extra insect activity or unwanted results is normally down to something you could manage better. Sometimes swells of a kind of insect are quickly dealt with by another and then if they swell, there will be natural predators all the way up. It kind of starts with your EM helping the organisms you want and then upwards to other more useful ones as they start to take over 'the yard' so to speak.

Oh yeah now I'm sure none of you care about this, but, those big mot daeng (Fire ants?) that dig their mandibles into you and squirm up and down as they try to bite/squirt you (or whatever they do to cause pain). If you pinch them gently on the gastor they let go and you can drop them somewhere else to go about their life. A little bit hard when there's tens of them doing it when you're near a nest, but the rest of the time it's easy...lol

[ThaiFelix]

Sorry for short sentences but trying not to ramble on too much.

I love all the ants on my farm. They help me to look after the plants. I wouldn't want to kill them. I rarely get bitten by them now.

Now back to my main worry.

Why are you using borax? It is a fungicide and a herbicide and you're trying to improve your soil/compost?

Your EM bacteria will be trying to get it on with all the good fungi and find there's nothing there to party with.

Loongs advice about the catfish heads sounds better, without the borax I see it like being a peace offering to any angry ants. Without going into microbiology too deeply, your plants need these fungi to grow stronger. If you're sticking it around your garden/farm to kill ants you're killing your bacteria/fungi relationship.

One of my ponds is a big hole in ground (20m x 40m), no treatment, tons of fish, every rains season we get a whole load of new ones. It doesn't smell and the fish are there all year round, not crystal clear, but if it was I think all the kingfishers and others I get hanging around would have cleaned it out by now. I keep meaning to get some aeration but never had the time, I just keep a 'good' bacteria balance and no chemicals on the farm. Try to 'read' your garden/farm a bit any extra insect activity or unwanted results is normally down to something you could manage better. Sometimes swells of a kind of insect are quickly dealt with by another and then if they swell, there will be natural predators all the way up. It kind of starts with your EM helping the organisms you want and then upwards to other more useful ones as they start to take over 'the yard' so to speak.

Oh yeah now I'm sure none of you care about this, but, those big mot daeng (Fire ants?) that dig their mandibles into you and squirm up and down as they try to bite/squirt you (or whatever they do to cause pain). If you pinch them gently on the gastor they let go and you can drop them somewhere else to go about their life. A little bit hard when there's tens of them doing it when you're near a nest, but the rest of the time it's easy...lol

Thank you very much for the reply Chenposeb.

Borax/ants: I could argue that Borax (sodium borate) is a naturally occurring element present in the four corners of the earth. You could argue that its a fungicide and a herbicide. However either argument really has no legs if we have not discussed or revealed the quantities per whatever used. Likewise you could argue that ants are beneficial to the garden. Sure, you are 100% correct if we lived in a natural environment....but we dont....there is too much water under the bridge for us to return to living in caves. I try to keep things here as natural as possible....I try to only use animal manures and compost rather than man-made fertilizer. I refuse to use any pesticides or herbicides. But I water my garden instead of waiting for the rain.....so that is unnatural. I grow lettuce and tomatoes etc....thats unnatural because without me giving water and manure they wouldnt survive right now. Its a matter of compromising.

Back to the ants. We have a lot of ants here that annoy our daily life. Because we grow a lot of plants and vegetables, and thus do a lot of watering, we have an unnatural balance. Because I refused to have the ground under the house treated/sprayed with chemicals we have a lot of ants that enter our house. I draw the line when I cant sleep because I have ants crawling all over me or like the other day after taking a shower I started to burn all over because hundreds of ants had covered my towel seeking out who knows what....water, dead skin cells??? Three days later I was still scratching from the bites (or formic acid squirts for the pedantic who seemed to miss the actual post topics/questions) all over my body. I cant even put a cup of coffee down without it being swarming with tiny ants. So I try to use as natural a product as I can to put these little creatures back to a natural balance,,,ie Borax. Now I am not talking about truck loads, I am not talking about kilos......I am talking about half a teaspoon of borax mixed with 6 teaspoons of sugar and a little water to make a syrup. This syrup is then distributed amongst 6 small bottle tops placed around the house (not in the garden) where the ants enter the house.....usually gaps in the flyscreens.

In the garden they sometimes cause problems because they are in unnatural numbers due to us creating an unnatural environment through watering,manuring, and growing plants in unnatural numbers. While they are beneficial because they aerate the soil, I have lost lots plants because they aerate the soil too much or carry in too many aphids because they are in unnatural numbers. In the garden I will merely put a slow running hose on their most concentrated area for a while to make life uncomfortable for them and they move on to somewhere they are tolerated. I cant do that in my bed or in the house hahaha!

Please dont take this post as any kind of criticism,,,,it is certainly not! I guess I am trying to point out that if humans are present it is not a natural environment and we cannot now live in a totally natural environment unless we all go back to living in caves. Take your ponds for example, if you are providing any food for the fish then its unnatural. But as my mother used to say "everything in moderation" and "dont post anything if you have had a few drinks" lol!

Thank you again

ThaiFelix

[chenposeb]

Hi Felix,

No arguments about the 'natural' thing. Just highlighting that it is sometimes our actions/fears which cause the out of balance situation and with a little different planning can save more work.

From the post you said earlier I thought you were putting borax in the garden which wouldn't really help your beneficial bacteria/fungi or EM formula. It might work slowly still though. Is your water from the tap? The heavily chlorinated kind or just well water that's been UVed? Soil/plants will survive on that water but might not thrive on it.

Your house is a different space (unless you grow your veggies in there...lol) and even though I am quite happy to sit and watch swarms of ants migrate from one side of the house to inside/under the house just before a big rainstorm and then take all their eggs back out again a few days/weeks later I do not expect anyone else to do that. Anyway, ants in the house is a little off-topic. I do feel they fill the gap of the lack of earthworms where I live, so I let them be. For me this is part of my ecosystem that involves the EM mixture I apply.

I don't feed my fish, but that's not because I try to be 'natural', it's part of the system that has grown around me and it doesn't interfere with me so I leave it alone, apart from taking a few biguns out(for the sake of the little ones of course ). I still don't get the living in caves thing? So sorry I can't comment on that. I have heard of a few people who do, but I don't think that has anything to do with an ecosystem for growing/supporting soil/plants, I think some people just like to do that.

Generally I don't think that fresh water watering, manuring and growing the right kind of plants in abundance would create an ant problem that lasted too long, but I may be wrong.

I'm not saying you have to do any of the things I do, just giving you some different perspective so you can make better decisions. Don't worry if you don't agree with what I do, I am used to a lot of people not understanding where I am coming from. Hope that helps

[IsaanAussie]

This conversation is getting interesting. We talk about natural farming and the use of things like EM to promote it. Well, EM certainly doesnt occur naturally in caves, its brewed in very large vats in sterile conditions in "laboratory" type factories. A result of 20 years of one guy mixing up different microbes to achieve a scientific blend of useful stuff that he could sell to others. Doesn't sound too natural does it? More like a Monsanto operation? An engineered solution using naturally occurring organisms in vastly increased populations and introducing them into what amounts to foreign environments to out-compete the local stuff that we don't want. Sound like the same objective as using pesticides and herbicides, even fertilisers?

To me the whole black or white argument between the conventional and organic camps is a nonsense. The consumer wants to buy nutritious food that isn't going to poison him. He relies on the imposition of certification by independently "wealthy" bodies on farmers to ensure the food is healthy. What a load of rubbish!

I take a simple view. If my stewardship of land, crops and animals improves their health and reduces my costs, I succeed. It is up to me to understand what, how and why I use the stuff I use.

[IsaanAussie]

Oh yeah, ants!

Try dusting with cinnamon powder, amazing stuff. You can use it on plant stems or around the house and the ants will be gone. I am told it also helps with damping off of seedlings and as a rooting powder for cuttings.

Give it a crack.

[farmerjo]

Is a 4 litre mix(80 litre total) of em enough for 1 rai to make a difference.(need more or less)

And what soil conditions are better to apply it(wet or dry)

The land at present is very dry but has a healthy coverage of dead grasses etc.

[ThaiFelix]

ThaiFelix,

I have often seen posts advocating mixing borax with sugar to eliminate ants. In my experience, very few ants in Thailand are attracted to sugar. A soup made with catfish heads(10 Baht/bag in the local market), sticky rice or bone marrow is much more effective.

Yes Loong, that is what I have found. Some go for it and some dont. And if they do go for it they bury it after a couple of days as though they have sussed out it is poisonous. That is why I am going to try out the high protein fish food in place of sugar. I have already got the pellets soaking so will try that first but if that doesnt give the desired results I will take up your suggested alternatives, thanks.

ThaiFelix

Over the last couple of days I have tried all sorts of things, fish pood, molasses, fish soup, chicken bone soup, and sticky rice to no avail......they just sniiffed at it, back-tracked a few steps and then the trail took a wide berth around the baits. It was then that I noticed hordes of ants coming over the wall from my father in laws house (I'll blame him haha) seeking out the blossoms from one of our flowering shrubs next to the boundary wall. This prompted me to go back to the sugar mix and it worked this time.....my bait traps were swarming with ants. So far after two days they are still going for it and not trying to bury it. Fingers crossed.

After a bit of reading up last couple of days some people have the opinion that ants seek out different things at different times depending on their needs....some days water, sometimes protein and others they may seek sugar.

[ThaiFelix]

I'll write a full response t tomorrow. But in short, UV filters are to kill bacteria. Why would you want to do that and use also bacteria to treat the water? One or the other. Swimming pool for people or pond for fish and a natural ecosystem. The waterfall is great for aeration.

Yes my bad! I didnt even think about bacteria when I installed the UV filters, I was just hoping to keep the green algae down a bit until I put tup tim in the pond....especially considering it gets so much sun. My intention was to turn them off a few days before adding the fish because algae is part of their diet. However I have been slowly adding EM over the last week at a rate of 400ml per day via the bio filter with the UV filters still on. The pond volume is a total of 9,000 litres. An inspection of the bio filter today indicated a greater build up of microbes on the bio balls. The water lillies have taken off as have the few plants in the bog filter. I have also noticed an increase in the number of water insects in the pond such as dragon fly nymphs etc. I think these are all good indicators but I will think seriously about your advice thanks IsaanAussie.