Thailand's infamous tiger temple fights to keep big cats

[dageurreotype]

Why is Buddhist teachings and practicing is opposite in Thailand?

Because they modified the eight precepts

As they 'modify' everything else to their liking.

[dcnx]

Thai Buddhist monks deal in trafficked wildlife and are allowed to continue doing it.

You simply can't make this stuff up.

[craigt3365]

Too much money at stake, both for the monks and for

the government officials who have turned a blind eye.

This will be in the news for a while, proper money will

be paid, a few lip service tigers will be transferred,

and then it will do the gentle Thai fade away in the

news. This place will never be closed down.....

nice to see a bit of good ol' beer-bar cynicism

With all due respect, that's what's been happening for years. This place makes a lot of money. Which is probably passed along one way or another. Somewhat like the jet ski scams, tuk tuk scams, etc. I hope this place is closed down...time will tell....

[EyesWideOpen]

Too much money at stake, both for the monks and for

the government officials who have turned a blind eye.

This will be in the news for a while, proper money will

be paid, a few lip service tigers will be transferred,

and then it will do the gentle Thai fade away in the

news. This place will never be closed down.....

nice to see a bit of good ol' beer-bar cynicism

Hmmm. I am actually sitting at my desk in America....

But on a side note, with all the bad press,

you will notice it has not been closed down.

What does this mean to you ? Anything ?

[cumgranosalum]

Extreme as it may seem the best answer to the problem would be to euthanise all of them. They are almost all certainly hybrids (Bengali/Corbetti)) and as such are completely unsuitable for genetic pure breeding purposes. Even if some should prove to be pure Corbetti (the species indigenous to Thailand) they just cannot be released back into the wild, they would starve to death, a much crueller fate than being put to sleep.

This would be the p[point of thorough DNA testing. If some are "pure" Corbetti and not interbred then they are a valuable asset to the gene pool - this doesn't mean releasing into the wild, it means kept in captivity, they could be of help preserving the gene pool or inseminating creatures in the wild in order to expand their gene-pool

[cumgranosalum]

Too much money at stake, both for the monks and for

the government officials who have turned a blind eye.

This will be in the news for a while, proper money will

be paid, a few lip service tigers will be transferred,

and then it will do the gentle Thai fade away in the

news. This place will never be closed down.....

nice to see a bit of good ol' beer-bar cynicism

Hmmm. I am actually sitting at my desk in America....

But on a side note, with all the bad press,

you will notice it has not been closed down.

What does this mean to you ? Anything ?

I think even from America it should be apparent that closing down is not an overnight option....there are 150 tigers involved. I never implied that ignorance nor cynicism were location specific.

[cumgranosalum]

Too much money at stake, both for the monks and for

the government officials who have turned a blind eye.

This will be in the news for a while, proper money will

be paid, a few lip service tigers will be transferred,

and then it will do the gentle Thai fade away in the

news. This place will never be closed down.....

nice to see a bit of good ol' beer-bar cynicism

With all due respect, that's what's been happening for years. This place makes a lot of money. Which is probably passed along one way or another. Somewhat like the jet ski scams, tuk tuk scams, etc. I hope this place is closed down...time will tell....

The place is now not allowed to charge.......and most of the actions in the last few months are the result of continued and long-term pressure by the various bodies who oppose the temple - no-one is disputing that it's a long ride or that it has a long way to go, but I think seeing as the licence request has been denied the temple is more and more finding its back up against the wall....no matter how much money and influence they have.

[cumgranosalum]

Don't move the Tigers, move the Abbott and the monks. There will be plenty of volunteers and Wild Life organisations to look after the animals until the Thai authorities move them to a proper

Non- commercial habitat.

Good idea! Don't forget to move out the ex-motocy taxi drivers and ex-paddy field workers who are tiger 'trainers and caretakers'/monks now. Clean the whole place up and let an international organization take over. Have you seen what this place looks like? They have been earning millions of $$$ over the years but obviously not invested anything back into their attraction. Looks like an old Soviet zoo. It seems to be the norm here though; raking in millions but never re-investing

It is the norm so moving the tigers in one fell swoop isn't necessarily the best thing to do. meanwhile the tigers are being looked after by "amateurs" with bizarre non-scientific ideas about how to look after tigers.

[cumgranosalum]

It's funny to witness how the parties involved and others who profit from the trade in endangered species and those that use the animals as a commodity to generate money are trying in every possible way to make it seem as if the tigers are treated in a good way. And then of course there are some keepers/trainers who indulge themselves in acts of cruelty. Just the fact that these animals are captured or bred and locked up is insane. Not to mention that they are drugged all day long just to satisfy some idiot tourists who want a 'nice pic' for their Facebook page. Surreal. Tigers are an endangered species who have been on the list of animals who are almost extinct for over 3 decades. What's very positive is the amount of international attention this 'sanctuary'(read prison) is getting. I've even seen signature pages of organizations who want to close this dump down and release the animals into the wild again, where they belong.

Anyone who visits places like this doesn't have much going on up there for themselves, that's a fact. Anyone who promotes cruelty to animals and locking them up is a simpleton and can't be taken seriously, another fact.

A country that allows this kind of greed and cruelty on their territory is just as guilty. With this amount of international attention the highest chief should get involved and close this prison down. Same story with the elephants. A Buddhist country should show the world how kind they are to all animals but instead it's the opposite. How can they allow a baby elephant with its captors to enter a city like BKK or CM? Corruption and greed being the answers as usual. Just go to Thewet fish market on the Chao Praya river to see how many endangered species are being traded and that's just for food.

The Buddha on Animal Rights.

“One must not deliberately kill any living creature either by committing the act oneself, instructing others to kill, or approving of or participating in acts of killing.

To completely abstain from the act of killing directly and indirectly, eat only pure vegetarian food.” ~ Buddhism

What do the teachings of Buddhism say about animal rights?

In Buddhism the highest and universal ideal is to continually work for a permanent end to the suffering of all creatures, not just the human animal, but all animals, all living beings without exception.

Buddhism affirms the unity of all living beings, all equally possess the Buddha-nature, and all have the potential to become Buddhas, that is, to become fully and perfectly enlightened. Among the sentient, there are no second-class citizens. According to Buddhist teaching, human beings do not have a privileged, special place above and beyond that of the rest of life. The world is not a creation specifically for the benefit and pleasure of human beings. Furthermore, in some circumstances according with their karma, humans can be reborn as humans and animals can be reborn as humans.

In Buddhism the most fundamental guideline for conduct is ahimsa-the prohibition against the bringing of harm and/or death to any living being. Why should one refrain from killing? It is because all beings have lives; they love their lives and do not wish to die. Even one of the smallest creatures, the mosquito, when it approaches to bite you, will fly away if you make the slightest motion. Why does it fly away? Because it fears death. It figures that if it drinks your blood, you will take its life. . . . We should nurture compassionate thought. Since we wish to live, we should not kill any other living being. Furthermore, the karma of killing is understood as the root of all suffering and the fundamental cause of sickness and war, and the forces of killing are explicitly identified with the demonic. The highest and most universal ideal of Buddhism is to work unceasingly for permanent end to the suffering of all living beings, not just humans.

The Buddha in a former life was reborn as a Deer-king. He offers to substitute his own life for that of a pregnant doe who is about to give birth. In another previous lifetime, the Buddha sacrificed his own life to feed a starving tiger and her two cubs, who were trapped in the snow. He reasoned that it would be better to save three lives than to merely preserve his own. It is better to lose one’s own life than to kill another being.

A disciple of the Buddha must maintain a mind of kindness and cultivate the practice of liberating beings. He should reflect thus: ‘All male beings have been my father and all females have been my mother. There is not a single being who has not given birth to me during my previous lives, hence all beings of the Six Destinies are my parents. Therefore, when a person kills and eats any of these beings, he thereby slaughters my parents. Furthermore, he kills a body that was once my own, for all elemental earth and water previously served as part of my body and all elemental fire and wind have served as my basic substance. Therefore, I shall always cultivate the practice of liberating beings and in every life be reborn in the eternally­ abiding Dharma and teach other to liberate beings as well.’ Whenever a Bodhisattva sees a person preparing to kill an animal, he should devise a skillful method to rescue and protect it, freeing it from its suffering and difficulties.

I agree with thr sentiments but this poster falls down on a couple of points of accuracy.

I think that one of the recessions the teflon temple has continued to exist is that the opposition is frequently inaccurate or mislead in their criticisms.

Firstly "they are drugged all day long" - there has not ever been any concrete evidence to support this......it may have happened but without evidence this is not fact. As I said ealrier, work needs to be done on the tigers in situ and testing for drugs might be a help.

signature pages of organizations who want to close this dump down and release the animals into the wild again, where they belong. No-one in ther right mind would EVER suggest releasing these tigers into the wild. Firstly they are of unknown genetic history and may well be hybrids which would bring to an end the indigenous "corbetti subspecies. furthermore the idea of releasing an animal - an apex predator - into the wild that is unable to fend for itself and has no fear of humans would verge on insanity.

Finally Buddhism - is frequently quoted as commanding that life is not to be killed. Unfortunately it also dictates that suffering can be the key to a higher kharma. Interfering with an animal could also be construed and against Buddhist teaching - even if that interference was to treat it with medicine...or put it out of its suffering.

Thanks for those big red letters! I was just thinking of getting a new pair of reading glasses as the old ones were not strong enough anymore, 55555! As if you read my mind.

Ok, so we wont release them into the wild. What about a real sanctuary then? One where it may seem that they are wild, not a bloody tourist attraction.

Of course they are drugged. How else can tourists be around them and touch them. Don't need a drug test to see if they are drugged. Does a bear s_hit in the woods?

And finally Buddhism; don't argue about things you know nothing about just for the sake of arguing

"Sanctuary" is a word brandished about with little thought to what is entailed. I think the best we can hope for for 150 odd tigers is to house them humanely in quarters where their natural behaviours are catered for a far as possible. encl;osures for tiger at the temple take none of this into account.

Talking of natural behaviours, you are making anthropomorphic assumes about the behaviour of these captive tigers. Tigers in the wild are not "active" and agressive animals all the time it is quite normal for them to do absolutely nothing - dose or sleep - for long periods......

Tigers are apex predators, unlike lions and other big cats they are solitary hunters most of the time and use there "camouflage" to get within a few meters of prey before making one short final dash. They often stash their food and come back to it....they don't run around making frenzied attacks on anything that moves and they don't spend all their time hunting. in fact like many predators, between preys they reduce their movement to an absolute MINIMUM to conserve energy. Tigers cover large ranges - especially the males, and they will walk around them in a way that uses as little energy as possible. It is often possible to find tiger scat etc on human tracks and paths laid through forests as these offer the tiger the line of least resistance when moving about. when not moving the tigers will rest for long periods of time.

there is a serious problem with those who think they oppose the temple - they don't seem to have the right facts and time and again the allegations of drugging are cited as if fact. the truth is - although plausible - there has never been concrete evidence of this.

The most serious thing about the allegations of drugging is that this kind of "gossip" detracts from the very real and serious shortcomings of the temple - the breeding (even hybrids), that is illegal, the substandard care and conditions, the inappropriate diet, which is in itself evidence of the gross lack of knowledge displayed by the temple, and the massively misleading claims that this temple has any conservation credentials when in fact they are actually harming attempts to conserve the tiger and its ecosystems in Thailand and S. E. Asia..

[cumgranosalum]

It's funny to witness how the parties involved and others who profit from the trade in endangered species and those that use the animals as a commodity to generate money are trying in every possible way to make it seem as if the tigers are treated in a good way. And then of course there are some keepers/trainers who indulge themselves in acts of cruelty. Just the fact that these animals are captured or bred and locked up is insane. Not to mention that they are drugged all day long just to satisfy some idiot tourists who want a 'nice pic' for their Facebook page. Surreal. Tigers are an endangered species who have been on the list of animals who are almost extinct for over 3 decades. What's very positive is the amount of international attention this 'sanctuary'(read prison) is getting. I've even seen signature pages of organizations who want to close this dump down and release the animals into the wild again, where they belong.

Anyone who visits places like this doesn't have much going on up there for themselves, that's a fact. Anyone who promotes cruelty to animals and locking them up is a simpleton and can't be taken seriously, another fact.

A country that allows this kind of greed and cruelty on their territory is just as guilty. With this amount of international attention the highest chief should get involved and close this prison down. Same story with the elephants. A Buddhist country should show the world how kind they are to all animals but instead it's the opposite. How can they allow a baby elephant with its captors to enter a city like BKK or CM? Corruption and greed being the answers as usual. Just go to Thewet fish market on the Chao Praya river to see how many endangered species are being traded and that's just for food.

The Buddha on Animal Rights.

“One must not deliberately kill any living creature either by committing the act oneself, instructing others to kill, or approving of or participating in acts of killing.

To completely abstain from the act of killing directly and indirectly, eat only pure vegetarian food.” ~ Buddhism

What do the teachings of Buddhism say about animal rights?

In Buddhism the highest and universal ideal is to continually work for a permanent end to the suffering of all creatures, not just the human animal, but all animals, all living beings without exception.

Buddhism affirms the unity of all living beings, all equally possess the Buddha-nature, and all have the potential to become Buddhas, that is, to become fully and perfectly enlightened. Among the sentient, there are no second-class citizens. According to Buddhist teaching, human beings do not have a privileged, special place above and beyond that of the rest of life. The world is not a creation specifically for the benefit and pleasure of human beings. Furthermore, in some circumstances according with their karma, humans can be reborn as humans and animals can be reborn as humans.

In Buddhism the most fundamental guideline for conduct is ahimsa-the prohibition against the bringing of harm and/or death to any living being. Why should one refrain from killing? It is because all beings have lives; they love their lives and do not wish to die. Even one of the smallest creatures, the mosquito, when it approaches to bite you, will fly away if you make the slightest motion. Why does it fly away? Because it fears death. It figures that if it drinks your blood, you will take its life. . . . We should nurture compassionate thought. Since we wish to live, we should not kill any other living being. Furthermore, the karma of killing is understood as the root of all suffering and the fundamental cause of sickness and war, and the forces of killing are explicitly identified with the demonic. The highest and most universal ideal of Buddhism is to work unceasingly for permanent end to the suffering of all living beings, not just humans.

The Buddha in a former life was reborn as a Deer-king. He offers to substitute his own life for that of a pregnant doe who is about to give birth. In another previous lifetime, the Buddha sacrificed his own life to feed a starving tiger and her two cubs, who were trapped in the snow. He reasoned that it would be better to save three lives than to merely preserve his own. It is better to lose one’s own life than to kill another being.

A disciple of the Buddha must maintain a mind of kindness and cultivate the practice of liberating beings. He should reflect thus: ‘All male beings have been my father and all females have been my mother. There is not a single being who has not given birth to me during my previous lives, hence all beings of the Six Destinies are my parents. Therefore, when a person kills and eats any of these beings, he thereby slaughters my parents. Furthermore, he kills a body that was once my own, for all elemental earth and water previously served as part of my body and all elemental fire and wind have served as my basic substance. Therefore, I shall always cultivate the practice of liberating beings and in every life be reborn in the eternally­ abiding Dharma and teach other to liberate beings as well.’ Whenever a Bodhisattva sees a person preparing to kill an animal, he should devise a skillful method to rescue and protect it, freeing it from its suffering and difficulties.

I agree with thr sentiments but this poster falls down on a couple of points of accuracy.

I think that one of the recessions the teflon temple has continued to exist is that the opposition is frequently inaccurate or mislead in their criticisms.

Firstly "they are drugged all day long" - there has not ever been any concrete evidence to support this......it may have happened but without evidence this is not fact. As I said ealrier, work needs to be done on the tigers in situ and testing for drugs might be a help.

signature pages of organizations who want to close this dump down and release the animals into the wild again, where they belong. No-one in ther right mind would EVER suggest releasing these tigers into the wild. Firstly they are of unknown genetic history and may well be hybrids which would bring to an end the indigenous "corbetti subspecies. furthermore the idea of releasing an animal - an apex predator - into the wild that is unable to fend for itself and has no fear of humans would verge on insanity.

Finally Buddhism - is frequently quoted as commanding that life is not to be killed. Unfortunately it also dictates that suffering can be the key to a higher kharma. Interfering with an animal could also be construed and against Buddhist teaching - even if that interference was to treat it with medicine...or put it out of its suffering.

Thanks for those big red letters! I was just thinking of getting a new pair of reading glasses as the old ones were not strong enough anymore, 55555! As if you read my mind.

Ok, so we wont release them into the wild. What about a real sanctuary then? One where it may seem that they are wild, not a bloody tourist attraction.

Of course they are drugged. How else can tourists be around them and touch them. Don't need a drug test to see if they are drugged. Does a bear s_hit in the woods?

And finally Buddhism; don't argue about things you know nothing about just for the sake of arguing

"don't argue about things you know nothing about" - as pointed out, that seems to be exactly what you are doing..........

[cumgranosalum]

Quite frankly the talk about or allegations of drugging is little more than a furphy.

There are various things that need to be considered.....

Firstly the blanket drugging of 150 tigers everyday...or simply drugging of the tigers on display would raise all sorts of logistical problems.

As a way for handling “difficult” animals, it has long been a practice of street animal minders to drug their charges so one could expect that this is the case.

CEE4Life did publish a video showing how this may or may not have taken place - remember they worked at the place for some time and there are also a lot of western volunteers who have passed through this place and none, repeat none, have ever witnessed drugging or provided hard evidence it was being carried out.

So we are looking a clandestine administering of sedatives in long-term regulated quantities to various animals. - Bear in mind also that just like humans other animals experience “comedowns” and cold turkey - all of this would lead to unpredictable and possible aggressive behaviour..... the animals do show predictable behavioural problem, but mostly those of being excessively caged in inappropriate housing.

I’ve visited the temple and have witnessed an episode there that suggested to me that at least the animals chained on display weren’t drugged. They were relaxed enough for people to pose for photos but when a stray pony came towards them, on being noticed, every tiger in sight turned towards the animal and adopted a stalking stance......the volunteers were running around and shouting and clearly in a state of panic - I think if the animal hadn’t been recovered and taken out of sight, we would have seen how well these chains actually restrained the tigers.

The temple is apparently guilty of some pretty serious misdoings, trafficking, poor housing, abuse, incorrect diet, illegal breeding - all these things are pretty much established, so pettifogging quibbles about drugging are to my mind another example of how misinformed - though well-meaning - critics of the temple waste time by barking up the wrong tree.

[DaveinAsia]

It's funny to witness how the parties involved and others who profit from the trade in endangered species and those that use the animals as a commodity to generate money are trying in every possible way to make it seem as if the tigers are treated in a good way. And then of course there are some keepers/trainers who indulge themselves in acts of cruelty. Just the fact that these animals are captured or bred and locked up is insane. Not to mention that they are drugged all day long just to satisfy some idiot tourists who want a 'nice pic' for their Facebook page. Surreal. Tigers are an endangered species who have been on the list of animals who are almost extinct for over 3 decades. What's very positive is the amount of international attention this 'sanctuary'(read prison) is getting. I've even seen signature pages of organizations who want to close this dump down and release the animals into the wild again, where they belong.

Anyone who visits places like this doesn't have much going on up there for themselves, that's a fact. Anyone who promotes cruelty to animals and locking them up is a simpleton and can't be taken seriously, another fact.

A country that allows this kind of greed and cruelty on their territory is just as guilty. With this amount of international attention the highest chief should get involved and close this prison down. Same story with the elephants. A Buddhist country should show the world how kind they are to all animals but instead it's the opposite. How can they allow a baby elephant with its captors to enter a city like BKK or CM? Corruption and greed being the answers as usual. Just go to Thewet fish market on the Chao Praya river to see how many endangered species are being traded and that's just for food.

The Buddha on Animal Rights.

“One must not deliberately kill any living creature either by committing the act oneself, instructing others to kill, or approving of or participating in acts of killing.

To completely abstain from the act of killing directly and indirectly, eat only pure vegetarian food.” ~ Buddhism

What do the teachings of Buddhism say about animal rights?

In Buddhism the highest and universal ideal is to continually work for a permanent end to the suffering of all creatures, not just the human animal, but all animals, all living beings without exception.

Buddhism affirms the unity of all living beings, all equally possess the Buddha-nature, and all have the potential to become Buddhas, that is, to become fully and perfectly enlightened. Among the sentient, there are no second-class citizens. According to Buddhist teaching, human beings do not have a privileged, special place above and beyond that of the rest of life. The world is not a creation specifically for the benefit and pleasure of human beings. Furthermore, in some circumstances according with their karma, humans can be reborn as humans and animals can be reborn as humans.

In Buddhism the most fundamental guideline for conduct is ahimsa-the prohibition against the bringing of harm and/or death to any living being. Why should one refrain from killing? It is because all beings have lives; they love their lives and do not wish to die. Even one of the smallest creatures, the mosquito, when it approaches to bite you, will fly away if you make the slightest motion. Why does it fly away? Because it fears death. It figures that if it drinks your blood, you will take its life. . . . We should nurture compassionate thought. Since we wish to live, we should not kill any other living being. Furthermore, the karma of killing is understood as the root of all suffering and the fundamental cause of sickness and war, and the forces of killing are explicitly identified with the demonic. The highest and most universal ideal of Buddhism is to work unceasingly for permanent end to the suffering of all living beings, not just humans.

The Buddha in a former life was reborn as a Deer-king. He offers to substitute his own life for that of a pregnant doe who is about to give birth. In another previous lifetime, the Buddha sacrificed his own life to feed a starving tiger and her two cubs, who were trapped in the snow. He reasoned that it would be better to save three lives than to merely preserve his own. It is better to lose one’s own life than to kill another being.

A disciple of the Buddha must maintain a mind of kindness and cultivate the practice of liberating beings. He should reflect thus: ‘All male beings have been my father and all females have been my mother. There is not a single being who has not given birth to me during my previous lives, hence all beings of the Six Destinies are my parents. Therefore, when a person kills and eats any of these beings, he thereby slaughters my parents. Furthermore, he kills a body that was once my own, for all elemental earth and water previously served as part of my body and all elemental fire and wind have served as my basic substance. Therefore, I shall always cultivate the practice of liberating beings and in every life be reborn in the eternally­ abiding Dharma and teach other to liberate beings as well.’ Whenever a Bodhisattva sees a person preparing to kill an animal, he should devise a skillful method to rescue and protect it, freeing it from its suffering and difficulties.

I agree with thr sentiments but this poster falls down on a couple of points of accuracy.

I think that one of the recessions the teflon temple has continued to exist is that the opposition is frequently inaccurate or mislead in their criticisms.

Firstly "they are drugged all day long" - there has not ever been any concrete evidence to support this......it may have happened but without evidence this is not fact. As I said ealrier, work needs to be done on the tigers in situ and testing for drugs might be a help.

signature pages of organizations who want to close this dump down and release the animals into the wild again, where they belong. No-one in ther right mind would EVER suggest releasing these tigers into the wild. Firstly they are of unknown genetic history and may well be hybrids which would bring to an end the indigenous "corbetti subspecies. furthermore the idea of releasing an animal - an apex predator - into the wild that is unable to fend for itself and has no fear of humans would verge on insanity.

Finally Buddhism - is frequently quoted as commanding that life is not to be killed. Unfortunately it also dictates that suffering can be the key to a higher kharma. Interfering with an animal could also be construed and against Buddhist teaching - even if that interference was to treat it with medicine...or put it out of its suffering.

Thanks for those big red letters! I was just thinking of getting a new pair of reading glasses as the old ones were not strong enough anymore, 55555! As if you read my mind.

Ok, so we wont release them into the wild. What about a real sanctuary then? One where it may seem that they are wild, not a bloody tourist attraction.

Of course they are drugged. How else can tourists be around them and touch them. Don't need a drug test to see if they are drugged. Does a bear s_hit in the woods?

And finally Buddhism; don't argue about things you know nothing about just for the sake of arguing

"Sanctuary" is a word brandished about with little thought to what is entailed. I think the best we can hope for for 150 odd tigers is to house them humanely in quarters where their natural behaviours are catered for a far as possible. encl;osures for tiger at the temple take none of this into account.

Talking of natural behaviours, you are making anthropomorphic assumes about the behaviour of these captive tigers. Tigers in the wild are not "active" and agressive animals all the time it is quite normal for them to do absolutely nothing - dose or sleep - for long periods......

Tigers are apex predators, unlike lions and other big cats they are solitary hunters most of the time and use there "camouflage" to get within a few meters of prey before making one short final dash. They often stash their food and come back to it....they don't run around making frenzied attacks on anything that moves and they don't spend all their time hunting. in fact like many predators, between preys they reduce their movement to an absolute MINIMUM to conserve energy. Tigers cover large ranges - especially the males, and they will walk around them in a way that uses as little energy as possible. It is often possible to find tiger scat etc on human tracks and paths laid through forests as these offer the tiger the line of least resistance when moving about. when not moving the tigers will rest for long periods of time.

there is a serious problem with those who think they oppose the temple - they don't seem to have the right facts and time and again the allegations of drugging are cited as if fact. the truth is - although plausible - there has never been concrete evidence of this.

The most serious thing about the allegations of drugging is that this kind of "gossip" detracts from the very real and serious shortcomings of the temple - the breeding (even hybrids), that is illegal, the substandard care and conditions, the inappropriate diet, which is in itself evidence of the gross lack of knowledge displayed by the temple, and the massively misleading claims that this temple has any conservation credentials when in fact they are actually harming attempts to conserve the tiger and its ecosystems in Thailand and S. E. Asia..

It will not detract from whatever else this so called temple is lacking concerning the care of these animals. If they can be so cruel to drug them, they can do anything, even sell them to Chinese medicine traders for their scrotum, fur, teeth, etc. This place needs to be shamed in every possible way. Even with lies.

I also never made any anthropomorphic assumptions about these animals. You just made that up. I do know that any wild animal can change instantly from being very docile and friendly to being unreliable and dangerous. Don't twist my words.

This place needs to close down. I don't care how you rationalize it. It's a dump and animal unfriendly. They are breeding them to sell them as Chinese medicine and to other animal prisons worldwide. Enough is enough

[DaveinAsia]

It's funny to witness how the parties involved and others who profit from the trade in endangered species and those that use the animals as a commodity to generate money are trying in every possible way to make it seem as if the tigers are treated in a good way. And then of course there are some keepers/trainers who indulge themselves in acts of cruelty. Just the fact that these animals are captured or bred and locked up is insane. Not to mention that they are drugged all day long just to satisfy some idiot tourists who want a 'nice pic' for their Facebook page. Surreal. Tigers are an endangered species who have been on the list of animals who are almost extinct for over 3 decades. What's very positive is the amount of international attention this 'sanctuary'(read prison) is getting. I've even seen signature pages of organizations who want to close this dump down and release the animals into the wild again, where they belong.

Anyone who visits places like this doesn't have much going on up there for themselves, that's a fact. Anyone who promotes cruelty to animals and locking them up is a simpleton and can't be taken seriously, another fact.

A country that allows this kind of greed and cruelty on their territory is just as guilty. With this amount of international attention the highest chief should get involved and close this prison down. Same story with the elephants. A Buddhist country should show the world how kind they are to all animals but instead it's the opposite. How can they allow a baby elephant with its captors to enter a city like BKK or CM? Corruption and greed being the answers as usual. Just go to Thewet fish market on the Chao Praya river to see how many endangered species are being traded and that's just for food.

The Buddha on Animal Rights.

“One must not deliberately kill any living creature either by committing the act oneself, instructing others to kill, or approving of or participating in acts of killing.

To completely abstain from the act of killing directly and indirectly, eat only pure vegetarian food.” ~ Buddhism

What do the teachings of Buddhism say about animal rights?

In Buddhism the highest and universal ideal is to continually work for a permanent end to the suffering of all creatures, not just the human animal, but all animals, all living beings without exception.

Buddhism affirms the unity of all living beings, all equally possess the Buddha-nature, and all have the potential to become Buddhas, that is, to become fully and perfectly enlightened. Among the sentient, there are no second-class citizens. According to Buddhist teaching, human beings do not have a privileged, special place above and beyond that of the rest of life. The world is not a creation specifically for the benefit and pleasure of human beings. Furthermore, in some circumstances according with their karma, humans can be reborn as humans and animals can be reborn as humans.

In Buddhism the most fundamental guideline for conduct is ahimsa-the prohibition against the bringing of harm and/or death to any living being. Why should one refrain from killing? It is because all beings have lives; they love their lives and do not wish to die. Even one of the smallest creatures, the mosquito, when it approaches to bite you, will fly away if you make the slightest motion. Why does it fly away? Because it fears death. It figures that if it drinks your blood, you will take its life. . . . We should nurture compassionate thought. Since we wish to live, we should not kill any other living being. Furthermore, the karma of killing is understood as the root of all suffering and the fundamental cause of sickness and war, and the forces of killing are explicitly identified with the demonic. The highest and most universal ideal of Buddhism is to work unceasingly for permanent end to the suffering of all living beings, not just humans.

The Buddha in a former life was reborn as a Deer-king. He offers to substitute his own life for that of a pregnant doe who is about to give birth. In another previous lifetime, the Buddha sacrificed his own life to feed a starving tiger and her two cubs, who were trapped in the snow. He reasoned that it would be better to save three lives than to merely preserve his own. It is better to lose one’s own life than to kill another being.

A disciple of the Buddha must maintain a mind of kindness and cultivate the practice of liberating beings. He should reflect thus: ‘All male beings have been my father and all females have been my mother. There is not a single being who has not given birth to me during my previous lives, hence all beings of the Six Destinies are my parents. Therefore, when a person kills and eats any of these beings, he thereby slaughters my parents. Furthermore, he kills a body that was once my own, for all elemental earth and water previously served as part of my body and all elemental fire and wind have served as my basic substance. Therefore, I shall always cultivate the practice of liberating beings and in every life be reborn in the eternally­ abiding Dharma and teach other to liberate beings as well.’ Whenever a Bodhisattva sees a person preparing to kill an animal, he should devise a skillful method to rescue and protect it, freeing it from its suffering and difficulties.

I agree with thr sentiments but this poster falls down on a couple of points of accuracy.

I think that one of the recessions the teflon temple has continued to exist is that the opposition is frequently inaccurate or mislead in their criticisms.

Firstly "they are drugged all day long" - there has not ever been any concrete evidence to support this......it may have happened but without evidence this is not fact. As I said ealrier, work needs to be done on the tigers in situ and testing for drugs might be a help.

signature pages of organizations who want to close this dump down and release the animals into the wild again, where they belong. No-one in ther right mind would EVER suggest releasing these tigers into the wild. Firstly they are of unknown genetic history and may well be hybrids which would bring to an end the indigenous "corbetti subspecies. furthermore the idea of releasing an animal - an apex predator - into the wild that is unable to fend for itself and has no fear of humans would verge on insanity.

Finally Buddhism - is frequently quoted as commanding that life is not to be killed. Unfortunately it also dictates that suffering can be the key to a higher kharma. Interfering with an animal could also be construed and against Buddhist teaching - even if that interference was to treat it with medicine...or put it out of its suffering.

Thanks for those big red letters! I was just thinking of getting a new pair of reading glasses as the old ones were not strong enough anymore, 55555! As if you read my mind.

Ok, so we wont release them into the wild. What about a real sanctuary then? One where it may seem that they are wild, not a bloody tourist attraction.

Of course they are drugged. How else can tourists be around them and touch them. Don't need a drug test to see if they are drugged. Does a bear s_hit in the woods?

And finally Buddhism; don't argue about things you know nothing about just for the sake of arguing

"don't argue about things you know nothing about" - as pointed out, that seems to be exactly what you are doing..........

Says the 'expert'

[rooster59]

Tiger Temple to Reapply After Zoo Permit Denied

By Teernai Charuvastra
Staff Reporter



Wildlife officials load a tiger onto a truck Tuesday at the ‘Tiger Temple’ in Kanchanaburi province.

KANCHANABURI — Authorities have rejected a zoo application from a commercial tiger temple that had been defying wildlife laws for years, though its administrators said they will apply again soon.

Wat Pha Luang Ta Bua Yanasampanno, aka the Tiger Temple, hoped to gain legal status for its horde of 147 tigers by applying for the zoo permit about two months ago, but temple lawyer Saiyood Pengboonchoo said by telephone Saturday that the wildlife department has rejected their application.

The temple has been keeping and breeding tigers without a permit for years, in violation of the national laws on protected wildlife.

Full story: http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1456556115

-- Khaosod English 2016-02-27

[iReason]

"a commercial tiger temple that had been defying wildlife laws for years"

"The temple has been keeping and breeding tigers without a permit for years, in violation of the national laws on protected wildlife."

Say's it all, doesn't it?

Shut it down. End of story.

[DaveinAsia]

Quite frankly the talk about or allegations of drugging is little more than a furphy.

There are various things that need to be considered.....

Firstly the blanket drugging of 150 tigers everyday...or simply drugging of the tigers on display would raise all sorts of logistical problems.

As a way for handling “difficult” animals, it has long been a practice of street animal minders to drug their charges so one could expect that this is the case.

CEE4Life did publish a video showing how this may or may not have taken place - remember they worked at the place for some time and there are also a lot of western volunteers who have passed through this place and none, repeat none, have ever witnessed drugging or provided hard evidence it was being carried out.

So we are looking a clandestine administering of sedatives in long-term regulated quantities to various animals. - Bear in mind also that just like humans other animals experience “comedowns” and cold turkey - all of this would lead to unpredictable and possible aggressive behaviour..... the animals do show predictable behavioural problem, but mostly those of being excessively caged in inappropriate housing.

I’ve visited the temple and have witnessed an episode there that suggested to me that at least the animals chained on display weren’t drugged. They were relaxed enough for people to pose for photos but when a stray pony came towards them, on being noticed, every tiger in sight turned towards the animal and adopted a stalking stance......the volunteers were running around and shouting and clearly in a state of panic - I think if the animal hadn’t been recovered and taken out of sight, we would have seen how well these chains actually restrained the tigers.

The temple is apparently guilty of some pretty serious misdoings, trafficking, poor housing, abuse, incorrect diet, illegal breeding - all these things are pretty much established, so pettifogging quibbles about drugging are to my mind another example of how misinformed - though well-meaning - critics of the temple waste time by barking up the wrong tree.

Ok, so let's just assume that they are not drugging them but they are still abusing them in every possible way that you mentioned already: trafficking(zoo's and Chinese medicine), poor housing(empty cages that are rarely cleaned), abuse(which includes severe beatings when they don't listen to their masters orders!), incorrect diet(mostly waste meat and other free and cheap food they can get), illegal breeding(see trafficking). To drug or not to drug is not the question here. And to be honest; even if they treated them greatly and spoiled them and gave them all the space they needed there is still the question of keeping animals in captivity for our own entertainment. It disgusts more and more people these days and it should. The right solution would be to kick every single human occupant of this temple out and replace them by some cuddly green nerds who studied biology or even oceanology for all I care because I know they are not going to do anything to harm these majestic animals. When will humans wake up and stop hurting, abusing and killing animals? Bunch of Neanderthals, it's pathetic in 2016. It's all old world stuff and anyone who fails to see this still has some evolving to do to catch up. The end

[cyberfarang]

It's funny to witness how the parties involved and others who profit from the trade in endangered species and those that use the animals as a commodity to generate money are trying in every possible way to make it seem as if the tigers are treated in a good way. And then of course there are some keepers/trainers who indulge themselves in acts of cruelty. Just the fact that these animals are captured or bred and locked up is insane. Not to mention that they are drugged all day long just to satisfy some idiot tourists who want a 'nice pic' for their Facebook page. Surreal. Tigers are an endangered species who have been on the list of animals who are almost extinct for over 3 decades. What's very positive is the amount of international attention this 'sanctuary'(read prison) is getting. I've even seen signature pages of organizations who want to close this dump down and release the animals into the wild again, where they belong.

Anyone who visits places like this doesn't have much going on up there for themselves, that's a fact. Anyone who promotes cruelty to animals and locking them up is a simpleton and can't be taken seriously, another fact.

A country that allows this kind of greed and cruelty on their territory is just as guilty. With this amount of international attention the highest chief should get involved and close this prison down. Same story with the elephants. A Buddhist country should show the world how kind they are to all animals but instead it's the opposite. How can they allow a baby elephant with its captors to enter a city like BKK or CM? Corruption and greed being the answers as usual. Just go to Thewet fish market on the Chao Praya river to see how many endangered species are being traded and that's just for food.

The Buddha on Animal Rights.

“One must not deliberately kill any living creature either by committing the act oneself, instructing others to kill, or approving of or participating in acts of killing.

To completely abstain from the act of killing directly and indirectly, eat only pure vegetarian food.” ~ Buddhism

What do the teachings of Buddhism say about animal rights?

In Buddhism the highest and universal ideal is to continually work for a permanent end to the suffering of all creatures, not just the human animal, but all animals, all living beings without exception.

Buddhism affirms the unity of all living beings, all equally possess the Buddha-nature, and all have the potential to become Buddhas, that is, to become fully and perfectly enlightened. Among the sentient, there are no second-class citizens. According to Buddhist teaching, human beings do not have a privileged, special place above and beyond that of the rest of life. The world is not a creation specifically for the benefit and pleasure of human beings. Furthermore, in some circumstances according with their karma, humans can be reborn as animals and animals can be reborn as humans.

In Buddhism the most fundamental guideline for conduct is ahimsa- the prohibition against the bringing of harm and/or death to any living being. Why should one refrain from killing? It is because all beings have lives; they love their lives and do not wish to die. Even one of the smallest creatures, the mosquito, when it approaches to bite you, will fly away if you make the slightest motion. Why does it fly away? Because it fears death. It figures that if it drinks your blood, you will take its life. . . . We should nurture compassionate thought. Since we wish to live, we should not kill any other living being. Furthermore, the karma of killing is understood as the root of all suffering and the fundamental cause of sickness and war, and the forces of killing are explicitly identified with the demonic. The highest and most universal ideal of Buddhism is to work unceasingly for permanent end to the suffering of all living beings, not just humans.

The Buddha in a former life was reborn as a Deer-king. He offers to substitute his own life for that of a pregnant doe who is about to give birth. In another previous lifetime, the Buddha sacrificed his own life to feed a starving tiger and her two cubs, who were trapped in the snow. He reasoned that it would be better to save three lives than to merely preserve his own. It is better to lose one’s own life than to kill another being.

A disciple of the Buddha must maintain a mind of kindness and cultivate the practice of liberating beings. He should reflect thus: ‘All male beings have been my father and all females have been my mother. There is not a single being who has not given birth to me during my previous lives, hence all beings of the Six Destinies are my parents. Therefore, when a person kills and eats any of these beings, he thereby slaughters my parents. Furthermore, he kills a body that was once my own, for all elemental earth and water previously served as part of my body and all elemental fire and wind have served as my basic substance. Therefore, I shall always cultivate the practice of liberating beings and in every life be reborn in the eternally­ abiding Dharma and teach other to liberate beings as well.’ Whenever a Bodhisattva sees a person preparing to kill an animal, he should devise a skillful method to rescue and protect it, freeing it from its suffering and difficulties.

Yea right, and if anyone believes that they`ll believe anything. We are dealing with hypocrisy and double standards.

The monks are fake and what they preach is very different in practice. Deprive the monks of ecclesiastical status, give the tigers back to nature and close the whole stinking lot down. Short and sweet, it`s the only solution.

[Shawn0001]

I'm not sure why it would be easier to remove the monks than the tigers.

You don't have to remove the monks - you take the daily running of the place out of their hands.

Several wildlife organisations have offered help and advice to the temple but have been refused. It is quite possible for "outsiders" to take over the running of the temple. It would also make the plight of the tiger immediately better and facilitate they removal to other places. There is a lot of work that needs to be done on the tigers that would actually be best done in situ. They all need to be properly identifies and their chips verified. They also all need to be DNA tested - a lot of this would be better done BEFORE removal as it may actually be a determining factor as to where the tigers are placed.

Good points, thanks.

[Sooo Upto Me]

Too much money at stake, both for the monks and for

the government officials who have turned a blind eye.

This will be in the news for a while, proper money will

be paid, a few lip service tigers will be transferred,

and then it will do the gentle Thai fade away in the

news. This place will never be closed down.....

nice to see a bit of good ol' beer-bar cynicism

Hmmm. I am actually sitting at my desk in America....

But on a side note, with all the bad press,

you will notice it has not been closed down.

What does this mean to you ? Anything ?

You still at school?

[cumgranosalum]

Quite frankly the talk about or allegations of drugging is little more than a furphy.

There are various things that need to be considered.....

Firstly the blanket drugging of 150 tigers everyday...or simply drugging of the tigers on display would raise all sorts of logistical problems.

As a way for handling “difficult” animals, it has long been a practice of street animal minders to drug their charges so one could expect that this is the case.

CEE4Life did publish a video showing how this may or may not have taken place - remember they worked at the place for some time and there are also a lot of western volunteers who have passed through this place and none, repeat none, have ever witnessed drugging or provided hard evidence it was being carried out.

So we are looking a clandestine administering of sedatives in long-term regulated quantities to various animals. - Bear in mind also that just like humans other animals experience “comedowns” and cold turkey - all of this would lead to unpredictable and possible aggressive behaviour..... the animals do show predictable behavioural problem, but mostly those of being excessively caged in inappropriate housing.

I’ve visited the temple and have witnessed an episode there that suggested to me that at least the animals chained on display weren’t drugged. They were relaxed enough for people to pose for photos but when a stray pony came towards them, on being noticed, every tiger in sight turned towards the animal and adopted a stalking stance......the volunteers were running around and shouting and clearly in a state of panic - I think if the animal hadn’t been recovered and taken out of sight, we would have seen how well these chains actually restrained the tigers.

The temple is apparently guilty of some pretty serious misdoings, trafficking, poor housing, abuse, incorrect diet, illegal breeding - all these things are pretty much established, so pettifogging quibbles about drugging are to my mind another example of how misinformed - though well-meaning - critics of the temple waste time by barking up the wrong tree.

Ok, so let's just assume that they are not drugging them but they are still abusing them in every possible way that you mentioned already: trafficking(zoo's and Chinese medicine), poor housing(empty cages that are rarely cleaned), abuse(which includes severe beatings when they don't listen to their masters orders!), incorrect diet(mostly waste meat and other free and cheap food they can get), illegal breeding(see trafficking). To drug or not to drug is not the question here. And to be honest; even if they treated them greatly and spoiled them and gave them all the space they needed there is still the question of keeping animals in captivity for our own entertainment. It disgusts more and more people these days and it should. The right solution would be to kick every single human occupant of this temple out and replace them by some cuddly green nerds who studied biology or even oceanology for all I care because I know they are not going to do anything to harm these majestic animals. When will humans wake up and stop hurting, abusing and killing animals? Bunch of Neanderthals, it's pathetic in 2016. It's all old world stuff and anyone who fails to see this still has some evolving to do to catch up. The end

Ok - so now you agree with me but you're still looking round for something to grouch about......the temple is being slowly brought to hell by the authorities, what they need is coherent and accurate charges that can stick in a court of law and then be enforced......wishee-washee quasi philosophies are all very nice but they have no place in closing this place down.

[cumgranosalum]

It's funny to witness how the parties involved and others who profit from the trade in endangered species and those that use the animals as a commodity to generate money are trying in every possible way to make it seem as if the tigers are treated in a good way. And then of course there are some keepers/trainers who indulge themselves in acts of cruelty. Just the fact that these animals are captured or bred and locked up is insane. Not to mention that they are drugged all day long just to satisfy some idiot tourists who want a 'nice pic' for their Facebook page. Surreal. Tigers are an endangered species who have been on the list of animals who are almost extinct for over 3 decades. What's very positive is the amount of international attention this 'sanctuary'(read prison) is getting. I've even seen signature pages of organizations who want to close this dump down and release the animals into the wild again, where they belong.

Anyone who visits places like this doesn't have much going on up there for themselves, that's a fact. Anyone who promotes cruelty to animals and locking them up is a simpleton and can't be taken seriously, another fact.

A country that allows this kind of greed and cruelty on their territory is just as guilty. With this amount of international attention the highest chief should get involved and close this prison down. Same story with the elephants. A Buddhist country should show the world how kind they are to all animals but instead it's the opposite. How can they allow a baby elephant with its captors to enter a city like BKK or CM? Corruption and greed being the answers as usual. Just go to Thewet fish market on the Chao Praya river to see how many endangered species are being traded and that's just for food.

The Buddha on Animal Rights.

“One must not deliberately kill any living creature either by committing the act oneself, instructing others to kill, or approving of or participating in acts of killing.

To completely abstain from the act of killing directly and indirectly, eat only pure vegetarian food.” ~ Buddhism

What do the teachings of Buddhism say about animal rights?

In Buddhism the highest and universal ideal is to continually work for a permanent end to the suffering of all creatures, not just the human animal, but all animals, all living beings without exception.

Buddhism affirms the unity of all living beings, all equally possess the Buddha-nature, and all have the potential to become Buddhas, that is, to become fully and perfectly enlightened. Among the sentient, there are no second-class citizens. According to Buddhist teaching, human beings do not have a privileged, special place above and beyond that of the rest of life. The world is not a creation specifically for the benefit and pleasure of human beings. Furthermore, in some circumstances according with their karma, humans can be reborn as animals and animals can be reborn as humans.

In Buddhism the most fundamental guideline for conduct is ahimsa- the prohibition against the bringing of harm and/or death to any living being. Why should one refrain from killing? It is because all beings have lives; they love their lives and do not wish to die. Even one of the smallest creatures, the mosquito, when it approaches to bite you, will fly away if you make the slightest motion. Why does it fly away? Because it fears death. It figures that if it drinks your blood, you will take its life. . . . We should nurture compassionate thought. Since we wish to live, we should not kill any other living being. Furthermore, the karma of killing is understood as the root of all suffering and the fundamental cause of sickness and war, and the forces of killing are explicitly identified with the demonic. The highest and most universal ideal of Buddhism is to work unceasingly for permanent end to the suffering of all living beings, not just humans.

The Buddha in a former life was reborn as a Deer-king. He offers to substitute his own life for that of a pregnant doe who is about to give birth. In another previous lifetime, the Buddha sacrificed his own life to feed a starving tiger and her two cubs, who were trapped in the snow. He reasoned that it would be better to save three lives than to merely preserve his own. It is better to lose one’s own life than to kill another being.

A disciple of the Buddha must maintain a mind of kindness and cultivate the practice of liberating beings. He should reflect thus: ‘All male beings have been my father and all females have been my mother. There is not a single being who has not given birth to me during my previous lives, hence all beings of the Six Destinies are my parents. Therefore, when a person kills and eats any of these beings, he thereby slaughters my parents. Furthermore, he kills a body that was once my own, for all elemental earth and water previously served as part of my body and all elemental fire and wind have served as my basic substance. Therefore, I shall always cultivate the practice of liberating beings and in every life be reborn in the eternally­ abiding Dharma and teach other to liberate beings as well.’ Whenever a Bodhisattva sees a person preparing to kill an animal, he should devise a skillful method to rescue and protect it, freeing it from its suffering and difficulties.

Yea right, and if anyone believes that they`ll believe anything. We are dealing with hypocrisy and double standards.

The monks are fake and what they preach is very different in practice. Deprive the monks of ecclesiastical status, give the tigers back to nature and close the whole stinking lot down. Short and sweet, it`s the only solution.

"give the tigers back to nature' patently not possible..

[DaveinAsia]

Quite frankly the talk about or allegations of drugging is little more than a furphy.

There are various things that need to be considered.....

Firstly the blanket drugging of 150 tigers everyday...or simply drugging of the tigers on display would raise all sorts of logistical problems.

As a way for handling “difficult” animals, it has long been a practice of street animal minders to drug their charges so one could expect that this is the case.

CEE4Life did publish a video showing how this may or may not have taken place - remember they worked at the place for some time and there are also a lot of western volunteers who have passed through this place and none, repeat none, have ever witnessed drugging or provided hard evidence it was being carried out.

So we are looking a clandestine administering of sedatives in long-term regulated quantities to various animals. - Bear in mind also that just like humans other animals experience “comedowns” and cold turkey - all of this would lead to unpredictable and possible aggressive behaviour..... the animals do show predictable behavioural problem, but mostly those of being excessively caged in inappropriate housing.

I’ve visited the temple and have witnessed an episode there that suggested to me that at least the animals chained on display weren’t drugged. They were relaxed enough for people to pose for photos but when a stray pony came towards them, on being noticed, every tiger in sight turned towards the animal and adopted a stalking stance......the volunteers were running around and shouting and clearly in a state of panic - I think if the animal hadn’t been recovered and taken out of sight, we would have seen how well these chains actually restrained the tigers.

The temple is apparently guilty of some pretty serious misdoings, trafficking, poor housing, abuse, incorrect diet, illegal breeding - all these things are pretty much established, so pettifogging quibbles about drugging are to my mind another example of how misinformed - though well-meaning - critics of the temple waste time by barking up the wrong tree.

Ok, so let's just assume that they are not drugging them but they are still abusing them in every possible way that you mentioned already: trafficking(zoo's and Chinese medicine), poor housing(empty cages that are rarely cleaned), abuse(which includes severe beatings when they don't listen to their masters orders!), incorrect diet(mostly waste meat and other free and cheap food they can get), illegal breeding(see trafficking). To drug or not to drug is not the question here. And to be honest; even if they treated them greatly and spoiled them and gave them all the space they needed there is still the question of keeping animals in captivity for our own entertainment. It disgusts more and more people these days and it should. The right solution would be to kick every single human occupant of this temple out and replace them by some cuddly green nerds who studied biology or even oceanology for all I care because I know they are not going to do anything to harm these majestic animals. When will humans wake up and stop hurting, abusing and killing animals? Bunch of Neanderthals, it's pathetic in 2016. It's all old world stuff and anyone who fails to see this still has some evolving to do to catch up. The end

Ok - so now you agree with me but you're still looking round for something to grouch about......the temple is being slowly brought to hell by the authorities, what they need is coherent and accurate charges that can stick in a court of law and then be enforced......wishee-washee quasi philosophies are all very nice but they have no place in closing this place down.

Wishee-washee quasi philosophies? Is that Croatian btw? I know Wishy Washy from Alladin and quasi philosophies but never seen them together. Might use that one day, thx! Do you know what's really quasi? TV posters/readers who claim to be tiger experts after they have visited the tiger 'sanctuary'(I know it's not a sanctuary ) and seen a few BBC Nature 'documentaries' on tigers and then tell other TV posters that they are idiots because they don't know as much as him about the story. That's quasi to the square root.

And yes, I just wanted to grouch around a bit, cheers. Have yourself a lovely night

[sz1a]

I can write, quite long sentences about this, using the comma sign frequently, and incorrectly, in an attempt to get my point across, to, the listener or rather, reader of this article, which by the way is about tigers,

[Rorri]

Extreme as it may seem the best answer to the problem would be to euthanise all of them. They are almost all certainly hybrids (Bengali/Corbetti)) and as such are completely unsuitable for genetic pure breeding purposes. Even if some should prove to be pure Corbetti (the species indigenous to Thailand) they just cannot be released back into the wild, they would starve to death, a much crueller fate than being put to sleep.

Did you ever think how the tigers would feel, about being euthanized, given the chance to roam freely, in a reserve, with feeding areas provided, or being killed, I suspect they would prefer to roam. As for their genetics, well for a start you are guessing, but here is a fact, cross breeding happens in the wild, there are NO boundaries stopping tigers, or any other species, migrating. Yes, now I await those who will "shoot" me down by bring in oceans, rivers, mountains etc.. but I think most THINKERS will get my gist.

I suggest you read this and notice the distribution and location of the area Burma where Begali and Corbetti link. A similar overlap, in Alaska gives a hybrid polar/grizzly bear.

LET THEM LIVE.

[Toknarok]

Here's an interesting article about cross breeding tigers http://messybeast.com/genetics/hyb-tiger-subspecies.htm

[cumgranosalum]

Extreme as it may seem the best answer to the problem would be to euthanise all of them. They are almost all certainly hybrids (Bengali/Corbetti)) and as such are completely unsuitable for genetic pure breeding purposes. Even if some should prove to be pure Corbetti (the species indigenous to Thailand) they just cannot be released back into the wild, they would starve to death, a much crueller fate than being put to sleep.

Did you ever think how the tigers would feel, about being euthanized, given the chance to roam freely, in a reserve, with feeding areas provided, or being killed, I suspect they would prefer to roam. As for their genetics, well for a start you are guessing, but here is a fact, cross breeding happens in the wild, there are NO boundaries stopping tigers, or any other species, migrating. Yes, now I await those who will "shoot" me down by bring in oceans, rivers, mountains etc.. but I think most THINKERS will get my gist.

I suggest you read this and notice the distribution and location of the area Burma where Begali and Corbetti link. A similar overlap, in Alaska gives a hybrid polar/grizzly bear.

LET THEM LIVE.

" but here is a fact, cross breeding happens in the wild, there are NO boundaries stopping tigers, or any other species, migrating." this is largely incorrect as the subspecies live in areas that are widely separated. The reason that subspecies arise is that they create their own gene-pool that is adapted to their own regional environment. these gene-pools have arisen over thousands of years when tiger populations were much larger and the animals were much fre-er to roam but still crossbreeding is normally found with captive animals.

There is a plan to create or rather recreate a tiger friendly zone that would stretch from South East Asia to Bhutan, Nepal and the indian subcontinent - this would create "corridors where tigers can roam from one safe region to another but it still shows little risk of cross breeding as the distances are quite great. ...and the tigers won't move out of their own bio-system

[Rorri]

Here's an interesting article about cross breeding tigers http://messybeast.com/genetics/hyb-tiger-subspecies.htm

And your point is?

[cumgranosalum]

Here's an interesting article about cross breeding tigers http://messybeast.com/genetics/hyb-tiger-subspecies.htm

And your point is?

Must say the point isn't that obvious apart from the fact that all these hybrids are bred in captivity...it doesn't mention any found in the wild.

[Rorri]

Here's an interesting article about cross breeding tigers http://messybeast.com/genetics/hyb-tiger-subspecies.htm

And your point is?

Must say the point isn't that obvious apart from the fact that all these hybrids are bred in captivity...it doesn't mention any found in the wild.

Granted, but is that any reason to kill them, especially when the numbers are in decline. I would still prefer to see them roaming free than dead.

[cumgranosalum]

Here's an interesting article about cross breeding tigers http://messybeast.com/genetics/hyb-tiger-subspecies.htm

And your point is?

Must say the point isn't that obvious apart from the fact that all these hybrids are bred in captivity...it doesn't mention any found in the wild.

Granted, but is that any reason to kill them, especially when the numbers are in decline. I would still prefer to see them roaming free than dead.

I don't think many are actually suggesting killing them. What we re trying to do is get across the reality of the situation. "Roaming free", if you mean released into the wild, is not an option due to the potential eco-damage it could cause to the existing wild populations.

There is a lot of stuff known about tiger behaviour in captivity and if properly applied the tigers can be held captive and kept in a reasonably psychologically stable condition. remember that none of these animals has ever been in thw wild or even out of a cage for more than a few hours.