Govt hints 'No' vote could restart charter process third time

[webfact]

Govt Hints 'No' Vote Could Restart Charter Process Third Time
By Pravit Rojanaphruk
Senior Staff Writer


Puangthong, second from left join other academics at a press conference at Thammasat on Sunday to announce their opposition to the charter draft. Photo: Matichon

BANGKOK — A deputy prime minister yesterday played down the possibility of recycling a previous constitution in part or full should the public reject the junta-backed charter.

Wissanu Kreangam said Monday it would not make sense to revive or cobble together old charters for adoption if the public rejects the current proposal championed by the junta. Instead, he said it would make more sense to begin the whole process anew for a third time.

Full story: http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1461056883&typecate=06&section=

-- Khaosod English 2016-04-20

[candide]

Anyone surprised?

[chainarong]

Nothing would suit this administration more , than a NO vote, perhaps all this self appointments and selection of Senators is a ploy, but a rejection of the charter is a possible licence to stay till 2020, the people are in a catch 22 dilemma , of course one hopes that some move would take place before 2020 , throwing the Thai military into oblivion as far as being involved with politics and just do, (with a 50% reduction in numbers ) , what they are paid to do , protecting Thailand from all those aggressive countries out there, one can only hope............................................................

[phoenixdoglover]

More confusion from the government that has declared desseminating confusion to be illegal.

[Somtamnication]

It will be reintroduced over and over again until we get voter burnout and then it will pass. It happens a lot in the US.

[smedly]

so if I am reading the article correctly and taking the correct meaning of what these people are saying, they are not protesting the Charter or its contents - they are making a political statement against the current government, the contents of the charter is of absolutely no interest to them even if it takes Thailand in the direction of a proper sustainable stable democracy, stamps out corruption and power abuse and an election next year

Sounds more like a protest from the Thaksin/red camp because it will limit their ability to steal from the people and will effectively prevent Thaksin from returning to Thailand without going to jail, his master plan is trashed if this charter gets approved

[phoenixdoglover]

so if I am reading the article correctly and taking the correct meaning of what these people are saying, they are not protesting the Charter or its contents - they are making a political statement against the current government, the contents of the charter is of absolutely no interest to them even if it takes Thailand in the direction of a proper sustainable stable democracy, stamps out corruption and power abuse and an election next year

Sounds more like a protest from the Thaksin/red camp because it will limit their ability to steal from the people and will effectively prevent Thaksin from returning to Thailand without going to jail, his master plan is trashed if this charter gets approved

No, there was a previous article about the academic group rejecting the Charter, and they are doing so because they object to its content. Many of their criticisms are specific. YOu can find a detailed article from 3 days ago on BP.

Open your eyes, Smedly.

[MaxLee]

Next year, next 2 years, next 10 years........... and the BS baiting continues.

[Langsuan Man]

Sounds like the current government is trying to blackmail the voters into voting like they want them to vote and are using the threat of a new round of charter talks as the stick to beat back opposition

[Jimbo2014]

So 'No' = More Junta, 'Yes' = More Junta.

Not really much to vote on is there?

[In Town]

This charter creates a permanent military government. Its not really possible for an alternative to be worse, so there is no real reason to vote yes. I suspect many will vote no as a sign of rejection of the status quo, and in the current environment a big "no" to the charter may be the only way most people can say they disagree with the direction of the country.

[tuanku]

How many more charters does old Meechai have in him I wonder?

[toybits]

It would only confirm that this government totally....(self-censored as writing it will be bad for my health).

[smedly]

so if I am reading the article correctly and taking the correct meaning of what these people are saying, they are not protesting the Charter or its contents - they are making a political statement against the current government, the contents of the charter is of absolutely no interest to them even if it takes Thailand in the direction of a proper sustainable stable democracy, stamps out corruption and power abuse and an election next year

Sounds more like a protest from the Thaksin/red camp because it will limit their ability to steal from the people and will effectively prevent Thaksin from returning to Thailand without going to jail, his master plan is trashed if this charter gets approved

No, there was a previous article about the academic group rejecting the Charter, and they are doing so because they object to its content. Many of their criticisms are specific. YOu can find a detailed article from 3 days ago on BP.

Open your eyes, Smedly.

I wish people would stop trying to tell me how to think, I can assure you my eyes are well open

There are many things about this government I do not like and have posted a few on TVF, people here are far to quick to criticize other posters because they think for some reason they know better, going forward I will gladly be proven wrong with some things but for now I will wait and see

So far with this charter the only thing that I find questionable that is worth a mention is the composition of the upper house and how it is selected but equally given the antics of previous elected governments I can see why caution is needed

[Srikcir]

Wissanu statement was consistent with his statement made on April 15th in reference to public rejection of the draft charter:

"the government would eventually be forced to produce a new charter" and that "it could resemble previous constitutions or draft constitutions created by charter drafters assembled during the Prayut Chan-o-cha administration"

However, the whole process will not be repeated!

On April 7^th he stated, “If draft charter is rejected in referendum, new one will be passed without [public] vote.”

The junta will likely follow the same process the junta used with the 1997 draft charter that wasn't even offered for public referendum. Have the junta-appointed legislative assembly majority pass it, then obtain royal endorsement to put it into law.

The Thai public will not be worn down by successive drafts. It will simply be bypassed – for the better good of the military nation of course.

[In Town]

so if I am reading the article correctly and taking the correct meaning of what these people are saying, they are not protesting the Charter or its contents - they are making a political statement against the current government, the contents of the charter is of absolutely no interest to them even if it takes Thailand in the direction of a proper sustainable stable democracy, stamps out corruption and power abuse and an election next year

Sounds more like a protest from the Thaksin/red camp because it will limit their ability to steal from the people and will effectively prevent Thaksin from returning to Thailand without going to jail, his master plan is trashed if this charter gets approved

No, there was a previous article about the academic group rejecting the Charter, and they are doing so because they object to its content. Many of their criticisms are specific. YOu can find a detailed article from 3 days ago on BP.

Open your eyes, Smedly.

I wish people would stop trying to tell me how to think, I can assure you my eyes are well open

There are many things about this government I do not like and have posted a few on TVF, people here are far to quick to criticize other posters because they think for some reason they know better, going forward I will gladly be proven wrong with some things but for now I will wait and see

So far with this charter the only thing that I find questionable that is worth a mention is the composition of the upper house and how it is selected but equally given the antics of previous elected governments I can see why caution is needed

You certainly have a right to your opinion, as we all do. Personally, I'm doubtful the current government is an improvement on any previous government, as it seems to have all the same old problems, which is perhaps not surprising, since it is composed of the same old (in both senses of that word) people. I also lack a pollyannish sense that democracy provides good government (it is, after all, government by committee), but what it does provide is a mechanism for the people affected to "throw the rascals out" when government steers too far off course. Rather than raising tension, this acts as a safety valve in society, reducing political tension.

[jamesbrock]

so if I am reading the article correctly and taking the correct meaning of what these people are saying, they are not protesting the Charter or its contents - they are making a political statement against the current government, the contents of the charter is of absolutely no interest to them even if it takes Thailand in the direction of a proper sustainable stable democracy, stamps out corruption and power abuse and an election next year

Sounds more like a protest from the Thaksin/red camp because it will limit their ability to steal from the people and will effectively prevent Thaksin from returning to Thailand without going to jail, his master plan is trashed if this charter gets approved

"...even if..." is where your argument falls flat. The junta is not taking Thailand in the direction of a proper sustainable stable democracy, they are not stamping out corruption and power abuse, and the promise of an election next year could easily go the way of the last several promised elections.

Prayuth’s personality is rogue and erratic, and his policies are increasingly resembling the Thaksinomics once so widely derided. Since seizing power, hundreds of politicians, activists, journalists, and people they accuse of supporting the deposed government, disrespecting or offending the monarchy, or being involved in anti-junta protests and activities have been arbitrarily detained and held incommunicado in military camps where they have been interrogated without safeguards against torture and other ill-treatment. Rather than a "proper sustainable stable democracy" people’s rights and liberties are almost absent, the Thai economy is crumbling, dissent grows every day, and the country has been routinely humiliated in the international arena - the anti-corruption campaign appears to be the only lifeline the junta has left.

Let's be clear, though, when the junta claims to be suppressing corruption, what they really mean is that they will deal with corrupt politicians who stand in their way. Unsurprisingly, the main target of their anti-corruption campaign so far has been Yingluck. The anti-corruption campaign is simply a means to try to ensure that the military has a monopoly on corrupt practices. The junta hasn’t rid the country of dodgy politicians; it’s simply taken their place.

The business sector has reported that “commissions” for government projects have now risen to 30 or 50 per cent of the total project value, and, after the mafia crackdown—which entailed politely asking them to hand themselves in—local mafias on the street have been replaced by men in uniform to whom vendors still pay protection.

But, but, Thaksin...

[Srikcir]

It will be reintroduced over and over again until we get voter burnout and then it will pass. It happens a lot in the US.

The USA draft constitution was ratified in 1788. Since then there has never been another draft constitution - but 27 amendments were ratified by the states.

So no, doesn't happen in the USA like what is happening in Thailand.

Since you say it happens alot in the USA, perhaps you can give some specific examples.

That's not to say that state and federal legislatures in a democratic republic system can and do repeatedly reintroduce the same draft laws for passage. The GOP dozens of attempts to repeal "Obama Care" is a good example. But I haven't seen evidence of wholesale congressional voter burnout. What typically happens with failed congressional bills that ultimately pass into law is that they are amended in compromise committees to the extent that the bill gains political plurality.

[Eric Loh]

so if I am reading the article correctly and taking the correct meaning of what these people are saying, they are not protesting the Charter or its contents - they are making a political statement against the current government, the contents of the charter is of absolutely no interest to them even if it takes Thailand in the direction of a proper sustainable stable democracy, stamps out corruption and power abuse and an election next year

Sounds more like a protest from the Thaksin/red camp because it will limit their ability to steal from the people and will effectively prevent Thaksin from returning to Thailand without going to jail, his master plan is trashed if this charter gets approved

No, there was a previous article about the academic group rejecting the Charter, and they are doing so because they object to its content. Many of their criticisms are specific. YOu can find a detailed article from 3 days ago on BP.

Open your eyes, Smedly.

I wish people would stop trying to tell me how to think, I can assure you my eyes are well open

There are many things about this government I do not like and have posted a few on TVF, people here are far to quick to criticize other posters because they think for some reason they know better, going forward I will gladly be proven wrong with some things but for now I will wait and see

So far with this charter the only thing that I find questionable that is worth a mention is the composition of the upper house and how it is selected but equally given the antics of previous elected governments I can see why caution is needed

Just to make clear that your only concern is the upper house composition. So you ok with the charter inclusion of 5 reserved seats for the heads of the army, navy, air force & national police plus military supreme commander and defense Perm sec. A bit like the Mynmar constitution. And you have no concern that the appointed senators with the inclusion of the uniformed chiefs can stage a no confident vote against an elected government. The bicameral parliament could then select a candidate as PM who is not an elected MP or even a politician. Kind of a disposable coalition government at the whims and fancy of the establishment. Just making sure I get your message.

[smedly]

A few tears back when Thaksin was trying to cheat lie abuse using any method he could to get his amnesty bill through the two houses I suggested then that what Thailand needs is a hero honest dedicated man to take control and reform the whole country, at that time there were serious riots on the streets people being murdered on a daily basis and the police being ordered to ignore it and let it happen, even threats of civil war and partition, it got to that point because the people said no to Thaksin and his efforts to clear himself

Previous to that Thaksin hatched a plan to make sure he won the election by buying the farmers with big promises - the one car scheme - the minimum wage - and the tablet for schools, all of these were design to make sure they won by any means, at that time his only goal was getting himself or his proxy into office so he could hatch phase 2

The people had had enough with mass protests in the streets larger that ever seen before demanding the removal if his proxy government but they refused to budge, another election was pointless as the same thing would have been repeated

What was needed was reforms and a new solid charter that would stop the rot from happening again

The NCPO are nervous about handing 100% control back to an elected government - I can see why this is, so what they are trying to do is put in a safety net to ensure that any new elected government is kept in check so they are not allowed to abuse again, the new charter should be enough to achieve this but I can see why they are approaching it with caution, if an elected government does its job and runs the country with primarily the interests of the people and not one man or themselves then I don't see an issue, it will be a starting point were the guardians can back away and take less interest while Thailand enters a new period of lasting stability.......these things take time....years

Do I agree with everything the current administration are doing ...... well that would be a very big no and I have said as much on here on several posts, my approval rating is about 70% but it is 70% more than PTP or Thaksin ever got

[smedly]

so if I am reading the article correctly and taking the correct meaning of what these people are saying, they are not protesting the Charter or its contents - they are making a political statement against the current government, the contents of the charter is of absolutely no interest to them even if it takes Thailand in the direction of a proper sustainable stable democracy, stamps out corruption and power abuse and an election next year

Sounds more like a protest from the Thaksin/red camp because it will limit their ability to steal from the people and will effectively prevent Thaksin from returning to Thailand without going to jail, his master plan is trashed if this charter gets approved

No, there was a previous article about the academic group rejecting the Charter, and they are doing so because they object to its content. Many of their criticisms are specific. YOu can find a detailed article from 3 days ago on BP.

Open your eyes, Smedly.

I wish people would stop trying to tell me how to think, I can assure you my eyes are well open

There are many things about this government I do not like and have posted a few on TVF, people here are far to quick to criticize other posters because they think for some reason they know better, going forward I will gladly be proven wrong with some things but for now I will wait and see

So far with this charter the only thing that I find questionable that is worth a mention is the composition of the upper house and how it is selected but equally given the antics of previous elected governments I can see why caution is needed

Just to make clear that your only concern is the upper house composition. So you ok with the charter inclusion of 5 reserved seats for the heads of the army, navy, air force & national police plus military supreme commander and defense Perm sec. A bit like the Mynmar constitution. And you have no concern that the appointed senators with the inclusion of the uniformed chiefs can stage a no confident vote against an elected government. The bicameral parliament could then select a candidate as PM who is not an elected MP or even a politician. Kind of a disposable coalition government at the whims and fancy of the establishment. Just making sure I get your message.

my above post explains it, please feel free to disagree, I don't see any other option, Thailand has a habit of imploding because elected governments go rogue, the reason for that is that they repeat the same things over and over because there are not solid rules to stop them and any of the few rules and agencies that exist and stand in their way they try to remove them - over and over and over the same things happen driven by greed money corruption and power abuse, why does this not happen in other countries - because there are solid rules laws and constitutions that are well written and prevent it, Thailand has never had that which is why it just cycles over and over - because they can, one side is as bad as the other but none of them are willing to make changes to stop it because they are all too busy enriching themselves

[Berty100]

Read the OP as:

If you vote no we're here to stay illegitimately, but if you vote yes you will legitimate us to stay.

Decision decisions.

[smedly]

It will be reintroduced over and over again until we get voter burnout and then it will pass. It happens a lot in the US.

The USA draft constitution was ratified in 1788. Since then there has never been another draft constitution - but 27 amendments were ratified by the states.

So no, doesn't happen in the USA like what is happening in Thailand.

Since you say it happens alot in the USA, perhaps you can give some specific examples.

That's not to say that state and federal legislatures in a democratic republic system can and do repeatedly reintroduce the same draft laws for passage. The GOP dozens of attempts to repeal "Obama Care" is a good example. But I haven't seen evidence of wholesale congressional voter burnout. What typically happens with failed congressional bills that ultimately pass into law is that they are amended in compromise committees to the extent that the bill gains political plurality.

the US constitution was written properly first time by smart people on the back of numerous wars - they had had enough

As for the amendments 27 - over how many years....hundreds, and have you ever looked at the process to get a single amendment approved - that also takes years and multiple levels of approvals, Thaksin thinks these amendments are the governments right to change on a heartbeat - that is exactly the problem, this new Thai constitution makes it very difficult to amend - which is how it should be, and also agencies that are designed to keep them all in check cannot simply be removed either, very early stages but it is in the right direction

[smedly]

Read the OP as:

If you vote no we're here to stay illegitimately, but if you vote yes you will legitimate us to stay.

Decision decisions.

so you don't believe and elected government will be allowed to govern, please explain that one, my understanding is that as long as they act like any civil government should then there will never be any intervention, I am good with that

[z42]

Wouldn't be a shock to be honest. Until the event we can't discuss happens there is simply not going to be any relinquishing of any of the powers held by the current regime.

The regime itself may implode, but the power itself will still be held by the military top brass / shoe in cabinet members they installed's cronies.

Penning a charter gives a perfect excuse to drag things out, as disgraceful as it is

[Berty100]

Read the OP as:

If you vote no we're here to stay illegitimately, but if you vote yes you will legitimate us to stay.

Decision decisions.

so you don't believe and elected government will be allowed to govern, please explain that one, my understanding is that as long as they act like any civil government should then there will never be any intervention, I am good with that

Of course there will be no intervention after election, as there is no need to, because THEY will be the government.

You forgot which are the main reasons why everyone is against the purposed charter?

Let me refresh your memory a little.

The Prime minister is not elected but selected by a majority of the senate an mp's, and doesn't have to be a member of a political party.

Now do you remember how the senate will be formed?

[MZurf]

Read the OP as:

If you vote no we're here to stay illegitimately, but if you vote yes you will legitimate us to stay.

Decision decisions.

so you don't believe and elected government will be allowed to govern, please explain that one, my understanding is that as long as they act like any civil government should then there will never be any intervention, I am good with that

"..my understanding is that as long as they act like any civil government should then there will never be any intervention..."

And who will be the judge of that, whoever is chief of the army? Do you actually believe the stuff you write??

[Eric Loh]

so if I am reading the article correctly and taking the correct meaning of what these people are saying, they are not protesting the Charter or its contents - they are making a political statement against the current government, the contents of the charter is of absolutely no interest to them even if it takes Thailand in the direction of a proper sustainable stable democracy, stamps out corruption and power abuse and an election next year

Sounds more like a protest from the Thaksin/red camp because it will limit their ability to steal from the people and will effectively prevent Thaksin from returning to Thailand without going to jail, his master plan is trashed if this charter gets approved

No, there was a previous article about the academic group rejecting the Charter, and they are doing so because they object to its content. Many of their criticisms are specific. YOu can find a detailed article from 3 days ago on BP.

Open your eyes, Smedly.

I wish people would stop trying to tell me how to think, I can assure you my eyes are well open

There are many things about this government I do not like and have posted a few on TVF, people here are far to quick to criticize other posters because they think for some reason they know better, going forward I will gladly be proven wrong with some things but for now I will wait and see

So far with this charter the only thing that I find questionable that is worth a mention is the composition of the upper house and how it is selected but equally given the antics of previous elected governments I can see why caution is needed

Just to make clear that your only concern is the upper house composition. So you ok with the charter inclusion of 5 reserved seats for the heads of the army, navy, air force & national police plus military supreme commander and defense Perm sec. A bit like the Mynmar constitution. And you have no concern that the appointed senators with the inclusion of the uniformed chiefs can stage a no confident vote against an elected government. The bicameral parliament could then select a candidate as PM who is not an elected MP or even a politician. Kind of a disposable coalition government at the whims and fancy of the establishment. Just making sure I get your message.

my above post explains it, please feel free to disagree, I don't see any other option, Thailand has a habit of imploding because elected governments go rogue, the reason for that is that they repeat the same things over and over because there are not solid rules to stop them and any of the few rules and agencies that exist and stand in their way they try to remove them - over and over and over the same things happen driven by greed money corruption and power abuse, why does this not happen in other countries - because there are solid rules laws and constitutions that are well written and prevent it, Thailand has never had that which is why it just cycles over and over - because they can, one side is as bad as the other but none of them are willing to make changes to stop it because they are all too busy enriching themselves

You don't see the paradox of 19 coups, 20 constitutions and 26 elected government with only 1 serving the full term. You think it's a case of 26 rogue governments or the establishment with their muscle not willing to share power with the people. Think deep, not shallow and myopic.

[phoenixdoglover]

so if I am reading the article correctly and taking the correct meaning of what these people are saying, they are not protesting the Charter or its contents - they are making a political statement against the current government, the contents of the charter is of absolutely no interest to them even if it takes Thailand in the direction of a proper sustainable stable democracy, stamps out corruption and power abuse and an election next year

Sounds more like a protest from the Thaksin/red camp because it will limit their ability to steal from the people and will effectively prevent Thaksin from returning to Thailand without going to jail, his master plan is trashed if this charter gets approved

No, there was a previous article about the academic group rejecting the Charter, and they are doing so because they object to its content. Many of their criticisms are specific. YOu can find a detailed article from 3 days ago on BP.

Open your eyes, Smedly.

I wish people would stop trying to tell me how to think, I can assure you my eyes are well open

There are many things about this government I do not like and have posted a few on TVF, people here are far to quick to criticize other posters because they think for some reason they know better, going forward I will gladly be proven wrong with some things but for now I will wait and see

So far with this charter the only thing that I find questionable that is worth a mention is the composition of the upper house and how it is selected but equally given the antics of previous elected governments I can see why caution is needed

If your eyes were truly open, you would have availed yourself of the news regarding this large group of academics and their detailed critique of the Charter , which was reported in TVF and BP. Then, perhaps, you would have desisted from attacking them. However, I am to infer by your two posts so far, that you were not aware of their critique, and in plain ignorance decided to slime them.

By all means, think whatever you like, and post the same.

[NoBrainer]

This is all the fault of the last government. At the time of the political deadlock just before the coup( adults fighting like spoiled schoolchildren to hold onto their place at the trough), they were repeatedly warned to negotiate a solution.

I remember them being specifically told multiple times, that if the Army has to come out of the barracks, that they will be coming out for a very long time.

As usual, the head of the government at that time just brushed it aside and carried on with the master plan to dominate the country, and use it as a personal wealth machine, (which unfortunately was costing many lives).