Deep well pumps - Hitachi or Mitsubish?

[zorrow]

Hi All

I am a new member and I am already having some difficulties in the Thai way of doing things (and I am not even living in Thailand as yet but plan to do so soon).

Can anyone advise me on the pros and cons of buy and having installed a deep well pump in the Surin area (North Eastern, Issan region, of Thailand I think).

Should I buy from an industrial specialist in farming or water irrigation etc etc? If so, who in the Surin area would be very knowledgeable about deep well pumps?

I am reluctant to perhaps buying from someone like Home Pro as I am not confident they are knowledgeable on pumps and would be more interested in their commission.

My gut feel is Mitsubishi although I have not looked at any particular models, but someone is pursuading me to buying either a Hitachi model DT-P300GX (SJ) or DT-P300GX (PJ).

I am not so sure what is the difference between the "SJ" and the "PJ" models. Can anyone assist me here with this subject matter?

Cheers

Zorrow from Australia

P.S.

visiting Surin in 2 weeks time so hope to get some advice before I arrive!

[MJCM]

Question.

How deep is the well ?

Edit: SJ, stands for Single Jet, PJ stands for Parallel jet. Someone better in the know can for sure explain that to you.

[ubonjoe]

Moved to the Do It Yourself forum.

[zorrow]

I know I am of no assistance when I say I have no idea how deep the well is.

[zorrow]

I am essentially, at this stage, just trying to navigate the brands, models and capacity for after sales service etc etc. Thanks to those who have so far assisted in my limited knowledge of pumps and lack of details in terms of depth of well.

Is one (single jet or parallel jet) better than the other. Any advantages? Disadvantages?

Cheers

[MJCM]

What I know (and I could be wrong) that if a well is deeper then 30 Meters you need a Submersible Pump.

Wells up to 12 Meters can have a Single Jet, and deeper (up to 30 meters) need a Parallel Jet.

It also depends on how much water flow you want, I have a 40 Meter well with a Grundfos Submersible pump and have very good water flow.

Edit: I hope a member, who is better in the know, correct me when I am wrong.

[zorrow]

Hi MJCM

what you have explained is great (remember, I know nothing). So your explanations as simple as they might be are of great help. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Zorrow!

[ubonjoe]

PDF of the pumps is here. http://www.hitachi-th.com/hitachi2014/product/catalog/pdf/WP_DT-P300GX.pdf

Single jet is for 2 inch bore wells and is 18 meter lift.

Parallel jet is for 4 inch bore wells and is 30 meter lift.

I would use a submersible pump dependent upon the lift.

[In the jungle]

I believe I am right in saying that these Hitachi jet pumps are less efficient than a submersible ie more Baht per litre pumped.

Someone with better knowledge than me could explain the physics but I understand that the Hitachis actually pump a percentage of the water pumped up back down into the well to get them to work to a greater depth.

I considered the Hitachi pumps but I am leaning towards a submersible even though the well I have is only 10.4 metres deep.

[IMHO]

I would use a submersible pump dependent upon the lift.

+1, After having several different well pumps, I now only use submersibles. Half the electricity, twice the flow, completely silent, and don't need any protection from the elements.

[zorrow]

Hi All!

i have just discovered the water is 40 meters below ground. Does this mean the Hitachi Model DT-P300GX (PJ) deep well Parallel Jet is with 30 meter lift. not suitable for pumping water 40 meters below ground ?

Does this mean a submersible pump is the only choice now available to me?

Again, many thanks to those giving ideas, suggestions and advices. It's a great help for someone like me who knows nothing about pumps and dealing with Thai people who also seem to know not much more than I do.

Thanks

[MJCM]

It seems to be yes that a submersible pump is the only solution.

But there are some affordable brands around, Grundfos is the "higher" end, but Franklin is also a good brand and is available in shops around Surin.

I live in Buriram and we had our well dug by a guy from Surin

[zorrow]

Thanks MJCM.

are you able to provide to me the details of the person from Surin and where I might find the Grundfos submersible pump? Also, would you have an idea of cost of the pump?

Cheers mate!

[MJCM]

I still have his number (the guy who dug my well) but I have no idea if the number still works. Will send you a PM (Private message)

Grundfos is NOT cheap can't remember the price I paid for it, but Franklin is also good and A lot cheaper.

Edit: PM Send.

[joeyg]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/807010-pump-hitachi-vs-mitsubishi/

[Crossy]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/807010-pump-hitachi-vs-mitsubishi/

Useful but not relevant as it's talking about constant pressure pumps not deep well submersibles.

[In the jungle]

The next question is what task do you want the pump to perform.

The pump you would choose to supply a small house would be very different to the pump for an agricultural irrigation system.

At this stage you can say that it needs to be a submersible that operates efficiently at beyond four Bar pressure as it will take four Bar just to get water to ground level.

You need to try and estimate/calculate the above ground head (how much work will be required to move water through the system beyond the borehole). The answer will vary greatly from, for example, 10 metres to a bathroom to hundreds of metres in an irrigation system.

You also need to think about measuring the performance of the well/borehole. Measuring being the operative word. Don't rely on received wisdom. At our place we have several different wells and bore holes. I ended up using a long abandoned well that my wife's family said was no good as quantitatively and qualitatively it was the best. As luck would have it it is right next to the kitchen.

In an ideal world you would borrow a sub pump to do the well test(s) as that will inform a pump purchasing decision.

[KhunBENQ]

The topic is of interest to me for reasons not disclosed

When I browse through the catalogs like this:

http://franklinthailand.com/media/Franklin_catalog.pdf

(page 8)

I see those "Submersible Motors Control Boxes".

Can someone enlighten me about the necessity of such a box?

From the catalog: do I understand right that the whole thing consists of a "Franklin" motor and a "Schaefer" pump end (attachment)?

Electrical cables cut and attached on site (before sinking) following the tables for size/diameter?

[zorrow]

Hi All

you wouldn't believe it (or maybe you would) they (my GF's father) without consulting with or confirming with me went and bought the Hitachi Parallel Pump designed for 18 - 30 meter water level despite his well having a water level at 40 meters.

I'm a bit annoyed as I have new concerns now.

They claim it works great and that their water pressure is strong and much much better than their neighbours,

I do have some query now about how long the pump will perform well with the strong pressure from water 40 meters lift when the Hitachi pump is designed for use for 18 - 30 meters lift.

Would the wear and tear on the pump drawing water at 40 meters be greater and/or accelerate the pumps use by date? Should I brace myself for it to fail sooner, rather then later?

If the pump does falter and I must make the decision to go for the right pump (I will make sure it is a Grundfos or Franklin submersible next time) can I use the PVC piping already currently installed down to the well or will I have to reinstall ?

Cheers

[Isan Farang]

Hi All

you wouldn't believe it (or maybe you would) they (my GF's father) without consulting with or confirming with me went and bought the Hitachi Parallel Pump designed for 18 - 30 meter water level despite his well having a water level at 40 meters.

I'm a bit annoyed as I have new concerns now.

They claim it works great and that their water pressure is strong and much much better than their neighbours,

I do have some query now about how long the pump will perform well with the strong pressure from water 40 meters lift when the Hitachi pump is designed for use for 18 - 30 meters lift.

Would the wear and tear on the pump drawing water at 40 meters be greater and/or accelerate the pumps use by date? Should I brace myself for it to fail sooner, rather then later?

If the pump does falter and I must make the decision to go for the right pump (I will make sure it is a Grundfos or Franklin submersible next time) can I use the PVC piping already currently installed down to the well or will I have to reinstall ?

Cheers

If the GF's father is providing the coin for the pump purchase no need to worry

[In the jungle]

I am surprised it works at all at 40 metres if Mitsu say designed for 18 to 30 metres.

Could they be getting confused between feet and metres and it is actually 40 feet? It sounds ridiculous but I have watched Thai construction workers make that mistake.

Another brand worth considering for submersibles are Mitsubishi which are made in Thailand and can be serviced and repaired here though I have no experience of them on the service side. Mitsu is all I can find here in the South unless I go for Chinese and I am not that desperate.

[zorrow]

Hi Isan Farang

nope, MY MONEY!

[In the jungle]

Somehow I just knew that was going to be the answer.

Felt it in my bones.

My post #21 above should read "if Hitachi say designed for 18 to 30 metres"

[MJCM]

The topic is of interest to me for reasons not disclosed

When I browse through the catalogs like this:

http://franklinthailand.com/media/Franklin_catalog.pdf

(page 8)

I see those "Submersible Motors Control Boxes".

Can someone enlighten me about the necessity of such a box?

From the catalog: do I understand right that the whole thing consists of a "Franklin" motor and a "Schaefer" pump end (attachment)?

Electrical cables cut and attached on site (before sinking) following the tables for size/diameter?

In my understanding (but I could be wrong) the Franklin pumps come standard with these boxes. Attached to these boxes is the "swtich" to turn them on / off. So you would have the Control Box and a seperate Switch to turn the pump on.

I will ask a friend of mine who has a Franklin Submersible to send me a picture when he has some time.

Edit: You are in luck, he had a picture of that setup on his pc, but he apologized for the shaky and unclear picture.

The Grey box is control Box for the Pump and with the VAVA switch, He turns his Submersible On and Off.

[streetlite]

How do I find water in the ground to be able to pump? Phaisali area. Stupid question but I honestly have no idea where to begin.

[MJCM]

How do I find water in the ground to be able to pump? Phaisali area. Stupid question but I honestly have no idea where to begin.

Ask around in your village what the approx depth of the wells is and then contact a well driller, when I drilled my well (40m) it was no cure no pay, so they only got paid if they found water.

But different areas different ways. Just ask

Drill a well on the height of the dry season and not in the rainy season, I did that and our well has been (fortunately) a constant supply of good water.

[KhunBENQ]

Tomorrow I will know whether the pump has given up or whether the 36 m was not deep enough.

I am afraid it is the 36 m and they will start their noisy dirty business again and dig deeper.

Currently using the muddy broth from the community supply

[KhunBENQ]

This morning the not so bad news came:

pump given up. Water still there.

They bought most crappy Chinese stuff (Mitsushi?).

To me the pump looks rusty

AND it was not connected with a "control box" (which I had not researched on).

Today (just back) I bought a new pump at a local hardware shop, same small power (0.75 kW, max. 50 m "lift"?).

Has an outlet with 1.25 inch thread which I will adapt down to the existing 1 inch pipes.

9100 Baht incl. 50 m power line, control box and 50 m rope.

The motor part seems to be from Italy (Italian and English instructions on the label).

Previously the pump was about 30(!) m deep.

The driller suggested to add 10 m to the pipes as the borehole is deep enough.

Will install and sink later in the day and do some pictures.

As before the pump will fill our tank (partially).

About 30 min per day.

Such small equipment is sufficient for a usual house.

At the big home store I have seen no submersible pump less than 10000.

Franklin (1 kW?), 16000. some Mitsubishi for 12000, sorry no details.

[StevieAus]

I have used the Hitachi PJ for our bore for about 6 years without any problems but as other posters have stated if you want to go deeper than 30 m you need a submersible

Suggest you find someone local who has had practical experience in the water business

Re your comments regarding Homepro we have dealt with the Chiang Mai stores for over 6 years and have found them knowledgeable and very helpful it seems the company trains their staff

I am sure though that someone will contradict my experience but I have had no problems and certainly no hard sell

[turgid]

Just had  a day of sulking on this myself because i wanted to buy a deep well pump and they wanted me to buy a Hitachi but while its fresh a couple of points that might help people new to wells or Thailand/Laos wells . This is Laos but i suspect rural Thailand is the same.

 

For definition purposes: 

A Thai/Laos water well is a deep hole drilled in the ground with a sealed PVC pipe inserted.

The bottom of the inserted PVC pipe is the depth of the Well.

If the PVC pipe is properly sealed water can only enter at the bottom of the Well.  Water will fill the Well to the upper water level. 

The water is only as good as the lowest sealed point in the well. So if the top is open and your dog has good aim - guess what.

 

1: A big shiny yellow Hitachi pump in the garden delivers more status to the neighbours than a deep well pump with a boring blue pipe coming out. Remember this over all other things

 

2: There is major  confusion about the different depths quoted by everyone with an opinion.   Here are some questions with our answers.

 

A:  How deep is the  water

For the hole we just drilled they hit water at 7 metres.

 

B: How deep is clean water

Local village consensus in Southern Laos  is now that holes should be 40 Metres deep (see 2C).

United Nations advice is that water source should be at least 30M away from pollutants sewage etc.

In our case several toilet soak aways, pigs, dogs and  chickens  are in or near the garden so I'd said as deep as possible but we're at  40M.

 

C : How deep can you drill

This is the big one. My guess is at some point in the past someone bought a job lot of drilling rigs and sold them in South East Asia . So there are lots of guys running around with a drilling machine on a broken truck that will drill up to 40M very cheaply.

That's a skinny drill which wont allow many brands of deep well pump. 

I asked 4 drillers in  Southern Laos. Drilling 40M was between 3,000 and 6,000 Baht. Bloke up the road drilled 40M for 3,000 Baht.

But in Laos at least If you want to go over 40M then you have to get a specialist in. That is 60,000-80,000 Baht for 40M - 100M.  The only person doing this they knew of was the ice guy.   Personally I thought that was a good reference.

 

D :At what depths will your pump technology work

i) Basic straight top sucking pump 8 metres . That's either physics or god depending on your belief system. First proved by James Watt who blew up a lot of steam engines trying to pump water out of deep coal mines.

ii) Parallel jet 30 Metres. Still not really sure how they work but as mentioned above they seem to pump water down to get water up. If you look in the garden of rural houses or hotels and you  see a blue pipe with two pipes in it they are using PJ up to a maximum of 30 Metres .

iii) Deep well pumps - up to 150M depending on brand and power consumption. You put it near the bottom of the well and they just pump up.

 

E: How much reserve do you want in the well.

In our case the water is coming from 40 Metres deep and if left alone today will  rise to 7 Metres below ground level in the well.

So if you shove a pipe down the well and pump.

At 40 metres you will be pumping sediment and submerged  cigarette ends dropped down the pipe by the workers. 

At 8 metres you will only have a metre of water  above in the pipe. It  will quickly  pump dry ingesting floating cigarette ends as it goes.

It seems prudent to be a few metres above the bottom to avoid sediment but as low as your pump technology will allow to give the maximum reserve.

 

In our case with a parallel jet pump we will pump from 28 metres which will give about 21 metres of water reserve in the pipe on a good day .   

 

Most people in the local area seem to be doing 30 M wells with 20-25M locally branded parallel jet pumps. I asked the driller about deep well pumps  (via a translator) and he said people wont buy the expensive ones. The cheap Chinese ones fail really quickly so contractors don't want to use them because they get called back to dig them out.  Plus pragmatically throwing an electric wire down a well seems like a bad idea to people who regularly get shocked by crappy electric wires .  Plus see point 1. 

 

This is only the well part. Above ground tank, shower pump etc yet to be done.