Phuket condo owners warned 'holiday rentals' less than 30 days risks fines, jail time

[mcfish]

Our condo in Bangkok has been enforcing this rule. Its certainly going to hit the Air BNB sector pretty hard

[Bigboy48]

What is happening about condo rental in Pattaya

[Puccini]

So no mention of stand alone homes or town homes for rent on a daily basis on the beach - arguably, the Hotel Act would apply to these homes as well.

What section of the Hotel Act B.E. 2547 (2004) would that be?

[timendres]

As a matter of principle, I cannot support laws that reduce property rights.

They should have made rentals inconvenient by registration, tax collection, etc. but banning private short term rentals is not compatible with ownership.

Well, you own the unit, but you don't own the building.

As posted previously, transient tenants can present issues for those who consider the building a home.

I have first hand experience with this, and definitely disagree with short term renting of condo units in a traditional condo building.

Now, if the entire building was purposed for short term rentals, such that anyone purchasing a unit in that building would expect this, then that seems reasonable.

[Maestro]

From the web page http://www.c9hotelworks.com/news/phuket-government-hits-illegal-condo-hotels.php:

...In the past the Thai Hotel Act has been revised back in 2004 to cover the serviced apartment sector which has seen a proliferation of abuse by properties circumventing the law and renting units nightly, whereas the waiver for a hotel license was rentals of 30 days or more...

Does this mean that the current Hotel Act has a rule that the rental of serviced apartments for a period of 30 or more does not need a hotel license but that such license is required for shorter rentals? If this is the case, the Ministry of the Interior has now decided to apply the same rule to condominium units, in which case one would have to examine whether the law gives the Minister this authority.

[Crash999]

As a matter of principle, I cannot support laws that reduce property rights.

They should have made rentals inconvenient by registration, tax collection, etc. but banning private short term rentals is not compatible with ownership.

How about the rights of the neighbors? If you buy or rent a place people know who you are. If you stay in Airbnb only the owner does. In addition to being illegal and a nuisance it's unsafe.

[peterb17]

As someone who is in a long term rental I support this. The residents where I live have to put up with transient people who having adopted the 'but I'm on holiday so it doesn't matter' mode show little consideration for others.

Drunks in the pool at 4 am are a pain in the backside- they can sleep in all day, we live 'normal lives. Screaming kids running around the pool all day can get on the nerves as well. One badly behaved child can hold an entire complex hostage

People initially bought the condos where I live on the premise that they would be for residents, not transients. Most have changed hands now, with those purchasing them as investment and income opportunities. This is what the Gov't is clamping down on and I see nothing wrong with it.

Some people will regard me as a misery guts for posting the above but hotels are there for a reason. This is my HOME not a holiday, why should I have it disrupted by people who would not behave the same way when they are HOME.

Its a factor people forget when they start bellyaching and all they can come up with 'well, if you don't like it...............'.

I don't understand you. If you don't want to be around people, what are you doing in a condo? You should have bought/rented a house outside the city, away from other houses. You shouldn't be upset about children being noisy etc. if you are living in a condo community.

If a person does or doesn't want to be around people, who am I to ask why? What a person "should have bought" seems to be the purchasers business, unless I pay their way. Should and shouldn't seem a poor choice of words, when directed to someone I have never met or have no influence over.

Unlike you, I have a pair of testicles and I can clearly state what someone should or shouldn't be doing. Someone who doesn't like noise should not be living close to other people. I had a friend back in farangland who rented an apartment near a bar...then he called the police every night complaining of the loud thump thump thump of the bass. He clearly should not have rented that apartment. Don't live in a condo if you don't like noise. Buy a piece of land on a rice farm in the middle of nowhere if you don't like people.

What is it about Americans and testicles- always seems to be some macho thing going on?

Even with those very large gonads - you can't control what the other co-owners are doing .

As with very many laws in the Kingdom , this law has been around for a long time -but nobody took any notice.

But things are changing ( if you had not noticed)

[gandalf12]

That is going to do the Condo market a lot of good. I assume the Thai's complained and are losing money.

Not only Thai's complaining. Expat condo owners ... including me ... don't like having non-owners/strangers in and out of their condo building. People who rent a condo apartment for only a few days are often very inconsiderate of the peace & quiet of other people in residence, as they often party late and loudly. They don't care if they piss off the next door neighbor because they'll be gone in a few days anyway.

We've had a problem lately ... because of airbnb ... in my Bangkok condo building. Fortunately the condo management has posted signs prohibiting short-term rentals, and the condo owners association has voted to fine fellow condo owners who don't abide.

I hear hat you say and the management of the complex should ensure that people don't use the facility like a fair ground. However you own a condo not the building. If there is a complaint and I agree there very easily can be then it is the building management who should resolve it.

[gandalf12]

What about people who buy who are badly behaved? What do you do about them? Don't say you don't get them as you do I know from experience.

[Maestro]

Removed an off-topic post and the reply to it.

[Khon Kaen Dave]

This gets ridulouser and rediculouser.It would seem that you can try and rape a woman and get a slap on the wrist and a small fine,and told not to do it again.But if you rent your condo out for less than a month,you are in the can for a year,or a 20G's fine,or is it both? anyway its backward and stupid.

[DrDave]

What total rubbish. This should not impact on hotels/resorts which offer other services.

Really what has an agreement between two or more people have to do with anyone else.

If this is the case in thailand (or maybe Phuket) then maybe the laws need a restructuring.

Go back and read Psimbo's post #4. It has everything to do with others - the other owners.

When you buy a condo, you are agreeing to abide by the CC&Rs (Covenants, Conditions & Restrictions) that have been developed for that particular project, and you are automatically a member of the condominium's owner's association. The CC&Rs are written to ensure a given level of aesthetics or quality of life for all of the association's members. Any changes to the CC&Rs must be voted on and approved by the association members (ie the majority of the unit owners) so as to ensure that the CC&Rs reflect the desires of the majority of the community. Typically, CC&Rs include clauses across a broad spectrum of topics, such as pool usage hours, quiet hours, parking, noise, odors, pets, trash, business activities, etc.

As a member of the association, your actions as a unit owner must take into consideration the other association members, and must conform not only to local laws, but with the association's CC&Rs. This is a basic condition of condominium ownership - you can't just do as you please.

[fiddlehead]

Never really understood the condo mentality and why anyone would want to live in a big building, with a small apt, surrounded by hundreds of other people.
I see them going up all the time and figured maybe it's the Russians or Chinese, as that's how it's done a lot in their countries.

Now, here here I read about condo owners complaining about noise, loud pool parties, rap music, etc.

Someone tell me why they didn't buy something more secluded if it's peace and quiet you want.

I think there will be a lot of empty condo apartments for sale, or rent in the future. (not that there's a shortage of them now)

[newnative]

As someone who lives in a condo and expects it to be a residence and not a hotel, color me thrilled at this news. And, for those TV posters who have, in the past, pointed out that there is nothing in the Condominium Act that prevents daily rentals, please note that it is the Hotel Act that prevents daily rentals. It was not written into the Condominium Act because the Hotel Act covers it but in hindsight it probably should have been in there, too. I hope this crackdown will reach Pattaya and I expect it will at some point as there is a lot of abuse of the law going on. I know there are many hotel owners that are unhappy with daily rentals taking their business and hopefully they will unite and force some action. At the least, if this is widely publicized it might get some condo owners to think twice about doing daily rentals. And, it certainly clarifies the issue to juristic and condo managers.

[camble]

I'm glad this law is finally being enforced and I hope the enforcement spreads to the rest of the country. The condo management where I live encourages residents to report short-term renters so they can shut-off their water. LOL

[Maestro]

...At the least, if this is widely publicized it might get some condo owners to think twice about doing daily rentals. And, it certainly clarifies the issue to juristic and condo managers.

I wonder if something like the article in Phuket News has also appeared in Thai-language newspapers. I searched with the Thai name of the Hotels Act and found no related news article.

[mcfish]

What about people who buy who are badly behaved? What do you do about them? Don't say you don't get them as you do I know from experience.

You report them to juristic. Over the last 10 years I've only complained twice about neighbors on the same floor and they sent staff up straight away to deal with it.

[asialife]

Since my post has been deleted I will have to re-post.

How can you say it is off-topic? From the responses, you would think that this only happens in Thailand.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/tourism/os-airbnb-complaints-orange-county-20160519-story.html

Here is a quote from the article:

In Orlando, code does not specify what a short-term rental is, said spokeswoman Cassandra Lafser. If a complaint comes to the city, it would be reviewed on a case-by-case basis.

In Key West, a license is required to operate rentals less than 30 days.

This gives some perspective to people jumping on the tea money bandwagon. These laws are not only in Thailand. What would the outrage be if the Thai article would read " complaints are reviewed case-by-case."

But if Thailand bashing is the norm, and there is no room to give some perspective, then by all means delete this post again.

[Maestro]

...And, for those TV posters who have, in the past, pointed out that there is nothing in the Condominium Act that prevents daily rentals, please note that it is the Hotel Act that prevents daily rentals...

I wonder if it is really in the Hotels Act. B.E. 2547 (พระราชบัญญัติโรงแรม พ.ศ. ๒๕๔๗). I did find the Thai text of the law but none of the hits for 30, ๓๐ and สามสิบ (thirty) related to the period of occupancy. It is probably in a Ministerial Regulation, which I also tried to find but without success. If anybody can find it I'll be grateful for a link to it.

Thai text of Hotels Act:

Hotel Act B.E. 2547 (2004) - krisdika.pdf

[connda]

Nice to see that Thailand is striving to catch up with the Developed World by building a burgeoning bureaucracy capable of flooding the country with inane regulatory degrees.

[regfrancis]

Holiday renters often end up buying--

As for Trouble makers----the owners and long term renters I've known do enough of that-- without needing any help from holiday makers

This observation is from someone in Real estate, development and rentals business- in Australia -third generation.

Obviously the hotel business --same as many others, have been disrupted by new technology.

But this is just the tip of the iceberg ---as its predicted that 40 percent of existing jobs will go within 10 years.

For the nimble and adaptable--they will be replaced with new jobs ..

Using protectionism --to attempt to rescue failing business models-- in the past -has been shown to be a doomed solution.

Especially with improved communications ---its now difficult to hide the underlying reasons that these actions are taken.

One way of looking at it --is that people wont need to work as long at old style 'slaving type jobs' as they wont need as much money to lead a comfortable life.

That's because you can find out how to do almost anything yourself (by doing a google search) instead of the old way -handing over cash to get it done!!

[regfrancis]

Holiday renters often end up buying--

This observation is from someone in Real estate, development and rentals business- in Australia -third generation.

As for Trouble makers----the owners and long term renters I've known do enough of that-- without needing any help from holiday makers

Obviously the hotel business --same ans many others, have been disrupted by new technology.

But this is just the tip of the iceberg--- as its predicted that 40 percent of existing jobs will go within 10 years. For the nimble and adaptable--they will be replaced with new jobs ..

Using protectionism --to attempt to rescue failing business models-- in the past -has been shown to be a doomed solution.

Especially with improved communications ---its now difficult to hide the underlying reasons that these actions are taken.

One way of looking at it --is that people wont need to work as long at old style 'slaving type jobs' as they wont need as much money to lead a comfortable life.

That's because you can find out how to do almost anything yourself (by doing a google search) instead of the old way -handing over cash to get it done!!

This observation is from someone in Real estate, development and rentals business- in Australia -third generation.

[bodymassagemyfriend]

Its mainly seems a fightback from Hotels which i found virtually empty in Pattaya.

As a long time and frequent AirBnb user ( about +50 rentals in different places over 3 years ) i can say its far better value for money than Hotels:

Lot more space , home feel , big TV , no need to deal with incompetent staff.

Try to ask for an extra fan or something like that in a hotel in Thailand ... When you complain on AirBnb you can something rather quickly.

I have beento some hotel before where water was cold year after year and always given the same sorry excuses.

The that Tourist are annoyance in Asia is rubbish in general while it may make sense in minor case like near walking street in Pattaya

For instance i have been staying at 'The Chezz' in Pattaya and the main noise was due to a hen making noise all the day from the house of a long term tenant , if not owner.

Or the noise of local doing Karaoke in the Philippines ,or their uneducated children shouting all the time.

Or the Thai / Korean living next door slamming doors and putting TV loud.

Or the long term expat which like Thai leaves the door open as a cheap charlie not to pay the air con. Whith childrens from his Thai wife shouting , playing in the appartment or when goingto the pool. Or TV switched on while door is open.

Or the perpetual men at work in the building because all long term owners 'supposedly educated' can't agree on common date to make the repair in the building to ensure that some month be completely quiet , without hammer noise

or whatever.

Or noise due to poor maintenance ( swimming pools , lifts , water pipes ) not broken by tourists.

Or the many dogs barking at night in the neighborhood , not dogs from tourists as well.

Who can claim nois manily comes from tourists, seriously? In my experience its just a small contribution to the environmental noise in Asia.

In the MANY place i stayed in Pattaya , Bangkok , Manila, Angeles City , Cebu , ... 95% of the annoyance ( summarized before ) where due to local activities , not tourists. It might be different in Europe but in Asia thats just laughable.

Asia is noisy by definition so Western tourist can be nice Neighbor because more quiet and also if the rental rate is not 100% some appartment are empty , which is not noisy by definition.

Condominim have rules that should be enough to vote at the yearly assembly to decide wheather short term rental is OK or not. This will give power to the majority so if the majority is doing short term rental its ok for the building.

The real problem is that nobody gives a shit when something goes wrong and its easy to put a blame on foreigners when the local management does not enforce building laws.

For me hotel is a thing from the past.

This will probably impact the condo market because many are built for short term rental. And also Thai governement wants to prevent long term expats so its squeezes the market. But who want to stay in overpriced hotels nowadays in a country

where the fun is gone , if not at the sea side or tourist only spots?

[eddie61]

Our condo in Bangkok has been enforcing this rule. Its certainly going to hit the Air BNB sector pretty hard

Sure, and the value of your condo, if you are an owner.

[HHTel]

I don't understand the law being spouted on this. The Hotel Act clearly defines a hotel as being:

2. The definition of hotel will exclude any residential premises open to the public for rental with no more than 4 rooms

I would say that the average condo does not fit into the description of a hotel so unless bigger units are being rented out I don't see the problem.

Maybe I'm missing something!

[Felt 35]

In a free market/democratic society it should be up to people themselves to decide who stays in their house and for how long and what they charge their guests. I guess some rich Thais who own hotels are hurting because of AirBnB so they make up a law to protect them. Of course it's annoying for long term renters/owners but that is not a reason to not allow it. Go and live in the countryside if you don't like strangers in 'your' pool.

In a truly democratic country, it is up to the people, but rules and regulations exist to protect neighboring peaceso that no one who rents out a room or house suddenly operate their property as a hotel business.

[RBOP]

This is going to literally kill AirBnB. There are thousands of these in Thailand.

[KittenKong]

Excellent news, and about time. I hope they do the same thing in Pattaya and enforce it rigorously.

Short-term tenants are a massive drain on building resources and dont benefit the building in any way, and in my experience co-owners who rent out short-term are usually the ones who dont maintain their units correctly and object to any money being spent on improving the building. All they want is profit.

Building management should be required by law to report all tenancies, short or long, to the tax office as well.

[Maestro]

I don't understand the law being spouted on this. The Hotel Act clearly defines a hotel as being:

2. The definition of hotel will exclude any residential premises open to the public for rental with no more than 4 rooms

...

Could you give a link to the English translation of the Hotel Act?

[Maestro]

HHTel, I have figured out that your quote was not from an English translation of the Hotel Act, but from this private web page:

https://www.mayerbrown.com/files/Publication/208bbcbf-ca11-46c7-be27-db99548b84d7/Presentation/PublicationAttachment/ca281ec2-3c88-4e3b-a172-4b379108e414/alert_jsm_thailand_10jun08.pdf

What you are missing is the rest of the paragraph from which you quoted on that page:

Quote

2. The definition of hotel will exclude any residential premises open to the public for rental with no more than

4 rooms on all floors in aggregate whether in a single building or in several buildings, and with a total service

capacity of 20 guests, operating as a small business which provides an additional source of income for the

owners. The owners of such premises are also required to report to the Hotel Registrar.

Are condominium buildings "residential premises open to the public for rental with no more than 4 rooms on all floors"?

If in doubt, refer to the original Thai text of the Ministerial Regulation referred to the webpage from which you have quoted:

Hotel Act - Ministerial Regulation 2551.pdf