Confusion as condo owners told they must have a work permit to rent out units

[bamukloy]

Big deal.

Sounds much smarter to buy a condo in a "farang-friendly" country, and rent it out. Use that income to rent yourself a place here in Thailand. Never buy here...is still what I am thinking. Must be some good investments, in other parts of the world....where they protect people with income who want to retire.

Things change with the wind. What they do this year, might not be the same next year. I thought condo ownership might be viable....but it sounds like a crackdown.

I never know if I can renew my retirement extension..from year to year....with certainty. If you become disqualified...and own a condo...basically you are forced to sell it.

You make it sound easy, just go and buy a place in the west rent it and laugh your way to the bank

In 2008 half the western world lost everything in the sub prime global property crash. Many lost up to 90% of their property value and half of America will never recover whilst Thailand was completely untouched, not even a tiny drop in prices and in fact new condos continue the uptrend ( no subprime here) and I knew many Americans who were highly critical of the thai condo market but were devastated at making the wrong choices. they will never be buying here either, to expensive now

If your relying on western property rental to survive in Thailand and that rent stops, your going home sweet home again and even with rent income the Brits are going home soon as the pound implodes. And they wont be buying here either as that pound spirals down..its all about timing

If you want to rent out your condo here and if it comes to it then paying tax should not be an issue as it isnt in the rest of the world. I still maintain buy to live and in 7 years time my Condo has paid for itself in saved rent money alone..wont owe me a bean

A condo costing 3 million, being rented out for 10k a month would take 25 YEARS..just to break even.

(and thats not even taking into account the added expense of corporate fees when you own the place)

Dont know what fugures you are working on for a condo to pay for itself in 7 years??

[KittenKong]

If you read the Thai version of the Condominium Act, it would appear that there is more than one way to interpret section 17/1, ........

That's a shame. The English version (for once and surprisingly) is pretty clear and I should have guessed that was too good to be true. I cant read Thai and wont be learning to.

My personal interpretation is that short-term letting does indeed cause a nuisance to residents and as such should be prohibited, as should any activity that makes a noise or creates excess coming and going beyond that of normal residential living. It seems to me that the spirit of the law supports this even if the letter does not.

Maybe one day it will be clarified.

[micmichd]

Some people seem to be permanently confusing labour with taxation, and Thailand with "The West"

Just get a Thai Tax ID to learn about the difference.

[Peterw42]

Big deal.

Sounds much smarter to buy a condo in a "farang-friendly" country, and rent it out. Use that income to rent yourself a place here in Thailand. Never buy here...is still what I am thinking. Must be some good investments, in other parts of the world....where they protect people with income who want to retire.

Things change with the wind. What they do this year, might not be the same next year. I thought condo ownership might be viable....but it sounds like a crackdown.

I never know if I can renew my retirement extension..from year to year....with certainty. If you become disqualified...and own a condo...basically you are forced to sell it.

You make it sound easy, just go and buy a place in the west rent it and laugh your way to the bank

In 2008 half the western world lost everything in the sub prime global property crash. Many lost up to 90% of their property value and half of America will never recover whilst Thailand was completely untouched, not even a tiny drop in prices and in fact new condos continue the uptrend ( no subprime here) and I knew many Americans who were highly critical of the thai condo market but were devastated at making the wrong choices. they will never be buying here either, to expensive now

If your relying on western property rental to survive in Thailand and that rent stops, your going home sweet home again and even with rent income the Brits are going home soon as the pound implodes. And they wont be buying here either as that pound spirals down..its all about timing

If you want to rent out your condo here and if it comes to it then paying tax should not be an issue as it isnt in the rest of the world. I still maintain buy to live and in 7 years time my Condo has paid for itself in saved rent money alone..wont owe me a bean

A condo costing 3 million, being rented out for 10k a month would take 25 YEARS..just to break even.

(and thats not even taking into account the added expense of corporate fees when you own the place)

Dont know what fugures you are working on for a condo to pay for itself in 7 years??

A 1m baht condo would rent for 10k a month. 3m baht condo probably 40k

a month.

I'm jomtiem, 3m would buy a big 2 brm, probably with ocean view.

[mcfish]

Big deal.

Sounds much smarter to buy a condo in a "farang-friendly" country, and rent it out. Use that income to rent yourself a place here in Thailand. Never buy here...is still what I am thinking. Must be some good investments, in other parts of the world....where they protect people with income who want to retire.

Things change with the wind. What they do this year, might not be the same next year. I thought condo ownership might be viable....but it sounds like a crackdown.

I never know if I can renew my retirement extension..from year to year....with certainty. If you become disqualified...and own a condo...basically you are forced to sell it.

You make it sound easy, just go and buy a place in the west rent it and laugh your way to the bank

In 2008 half the western world lost everything in the sub prime global property crash. Many lost up to 90% of their property value and half of America will never recover whilst Thailand was completely untouched, not even a tiny drop in prices and in fact new condos continue the uptrend ( no subprime here) and I knew many Americans who were highly critical of the thai condo market but were devastated at making the wrong choices. they will never be buying here either, to expensive now

If your relying on western property rental to survive in Thailand and that rent stops, your going home sweet home again and even with rent income the Brits are going home soon as the pound implodes. And they wont be buying here either as that pound spirals down..its all about timing

If you want to rent out your condo here and if it comes to it then paying tax should not be an issue as it isnt in the rest of the world. I still maintain buy to live and in 7 years time my Condo has paid for itself in saved rent money alone..wont owe me a bean

A condo costing 3 million, being rented out for 10k a month would take 25 YEARS..just to break even.

(and thats not even taking into account the added expense of corporate fees when you own the place)

Dont know what fugures you are working on for a condo to pay for itself in 7 years??

Im in Bangkok 100m from Nana BTS ..80sqm bought a long time ago and rents for 38k and paid sub 5 mill and I said in 7 years time ! Not a total of 7 years

Where the hell did you get 10k return for 3 million outlay? chang mai? certainly not lower suk Bangkok , the 35 sqm studios bought at 3 mill are 18k-23k rent now where I live

Condo sqm prices have exploded on lower SUK in the last 12 years..easily doubled ...lovin it

I hope renters stay renters more fresh meat for the landlords

[NamKangMan]

First of all, the director of Phuket Palace is always intimidating and doing his best with disinformation to profit from the condo owners there, thus the signature " Jurassic person " on this document, This man is a complete criminal who needs to be dealt with.

Finally after reading through all this nonsense there is one other person who views the OP for what it really is, nothing more than an intimidating notice to its condo owners in a development that has been in constant battles over the years with its owners. I am truly amazed that a fake letter with absolutely no substance behind it can turn into a 13 page thread. The only "confusion" is that being generated by TV by posting this.

You do not need a WP to rent out accommodation in Thailand providing you have someone doing the work for you (i.e. handing over the keys, servicing the room), if anyone advises otherwise they are giving you false information, either because they have been misinformed themselves, or they are bitterly envious towards people who own condos as they will never own one themselves. However, the whole WP thing is completely irrelevant in the case of renting a condo under 30 days as it is illegal to do so, whether you have a WP or not.

As for future condo developments all you doomsayers will be disappointed to hear that provisions are already in place for this. As another poster recently mentioned a condo building can operate as a hotel by allocating a section of the project, this will all be put into place very early on and made clear upon the owner signing the sales agreement where owners agree from day one. There are condo developers now in Phuket who are actively selling with rules in place that stipulate the owner cannot rent out the the unit themselves, therefore eliminating the potential problems with owners selling on AirBnb and the likes. One condo developer even has a rule in place that should you place your condo in the rental pool there is a compulsory cleaning fee to pay, this is during the actual owners usage days that they are allocated as part of being in the rental pool, along with the rule of not allowing owners to rent their condos out themselves this is a great idea and a step in the right direction.

Finally, a sensible, rational and factual post.

There is "NO" requirement for a WP for long term rentals.

Even if such a law exists, it has not been enforced in the past, present, and no plans to enforce it in the future.

There is no "slap in the face", "nail in the coffin" "targeting of westerners",

As nothing has changed.

Condos in Thailand are still dirt cheap and offer great rental returns.

"There is "NO" requirement for a WP for long term rentals."" - maybe, but who knows about the future? They can change this anytime they want. What can you do about it if they do???? Zero.

"Even if such a law exists, it has not been enforced in the past, present, and no plans to enforce it in the future."" - can you guarantee this? No, you can't. They can start to enforce anything they like, at anytime they like, by any means they like. If / when they do, once again, what can you do about it???? Zero.

"There is no "slap in the face", "nail in the coffin" "targeting of westerners. As nothing has changed."- for now. Once again, foreigners never really are sure where they stand in Thailand. They can target anyone they want, at anytime, for anything. You are naive if you feel protected here by any Thai laws. As a foreigner, you have no rights here.

"Condos in Thailand are still dirt cheap and offer great rental returns." - and they will continue to get cheaper and cheaper as their "returns" get smaller and smaller. What a great investment that is.

The writing is on the wall - disregard it at your own peril.

[NamKangMan]

I believe the government agency is getting it wrong here and maybe they dont have all the facts!!!

If the condo owner is managing it themselves, ie taking the booking, greeting the client sorting out issues and problems then yes I totally agree they are working and obviously taking a job away from a local. If a WP is obtained for managing a condo rental, be it one or 100 and the booking period is for more than 30 days as per the rules, then all is okay too. But if a condo owner uses the services of a management company to look after the running of the condo, promoting, renting, greeting customers and dealing with all other issues and the owner only receives a bank deposit at the end of the month then no rules are breached. Its the same all around the world and has been for a long long time. I think the only other issue to consider is the tax implications but that's not what this thread is about. My last point I want to put out there is its no different to a foreigner putting the equivalent amount of money (value of condo) in a thai bank and getting the monthly interest. The asset in this case is cash instead of bricks and mortar and the banking system generates the return for the owner of the asset. Should we now be needing a WP for having money in a bank? I don't think so.

Yep you nailed it!

And this is why they have never acted on the work permit law and never will because it will never hold up in court when challenged

Should a tax be imposed? no problem , just do what the Thais would do in this situation and bump up the rent

"Should a tax be imposed? no problem , just do what the Thais would do in this situation and bump up the rent" - and what will be the impact on the tourism industry as a cause of charging higher rents?

Tourists will either go elsewhere, or seek out cheaper accommodation, once again, causing a race to the bottom on pricing, and further devaluing the Phuket brand.

[mcfish]

First of all, the director of Phuket Palace is always intimidating and doing his best with disinformation to profit from the condo owners there, thus the signature " Jurassic person " on this document, This man is a complete criminal who needs to be dealt with.

Finally after reading through all this nonsense there is one other person who views the OP for what it really is, nothing more than an intimidating notice to its condo owners in a development that has been in constant battles over the years with its owners. I am truly amazed that a fake letter with absolutely no substance behind it can turn into a 13 page thread. The only "confusion" is that being generated by TV by posting this.

You do not need a WP to rent out accommodation in Thailand providing you have someone doing the work for you (i.e. handing over the keys, servicing the room), if anyone advises otherwise they are giving you false information, either because they have been misinformed themselves, or they are bitterly envious towards people who own condos as they will never own one themselves. However, the whole WP thing is completely irrelevant in the case of renting a condo under 30 days as it is illegal to do so, whether you have a WP or not.

As for future condo developments all you doomsayers will be disappointed to hear that provisions are already in place for this. As another poster recently mentioned a condo building can operate as a hotel by allocating a section of the project, this will all be put into place very early on and made clear upon the owner signing the sales agreement where owners agree from day one. There are condo developers now in Phuket who are actively selling with rules in place that stipulate the owner cannot rent out the the unit themselves, therefore eliminating the potential problems with owners selling on AirBnb and the likes. One condo developer even has a rule in place that should you place your condo in the rental pool there is a compulsory cleaning fee to pay, this is during the actual owners usage days that they are allocated as part of being in the rental pool, along with the rule of not allowing owners to rent their condos out themselves this is a great idea and a step in the right direction.

Finally, a sensible, rational and factual post.

There is "NO" requirement for a WP for long term rentals.

Even if such a law exists, it has not been enforced in the past, present, and no plans to enforce it in the future.

There is no "slap in the face", "nail in the coffin" "targeting of westerners",

As nothing has changed.

Condos in Thailand are still dirt cheap and offer great rental returns.

"There is "NO" requirement for a WP for long term rentals."" - maybe, but who knows about the future? They can change this anytime they want. What can you do about it if they do???? Zero.

"Even if such a law exists, it has not been enforced in the past, present, and no plans to enforce it in the future."" - can you guarantee this? No, you can't. They can start to enforce anything they like, at anytime they like, by any means they like. If / when they do, once again, what can you do about it???? Zero.

"There is no "slap in the face", "nail in the coffin" "targeting of westerners. As nothing has changed."- for now. Once again, foreigners never really are sure where they stand in Thailand. They can target anyone they want, at anytime, for anything. You are naive if you feel protected here by any Thai laws. As a foreigner, you have no rights here.

"Condos in Thailand are still dirt cheap and offer great rental returns." - and they will continue to get cheaper and cheaper as their "returns" get smaller and smaller. What a great investment that is.

The writing is on the wall - disregard it at your own peril.

What is it about your deep seated hatred for Thais and farang landlords , your jumping on every real estate thread injecting wild fantasy scenarios over 70 posts in the last 24 hours

Sounds like your in a 3k room on the dark side Pattaya and drinking heavily, right?

Even TV wants nothing to do with that anonymous hand typed note..learn your lesson and move on

I worry i really do

[NamKangMan]

What is the set up? Too many keys, overbuilt, coupled with Sino-Russian package tours?

What is the end game?

Continue to rent, wait to get caught, pay a bribe?

Divest (at a loss), invest elsewhere?

Repackage 30 day rents at an under 30 day price?

I've seen condo building with less than 50% occupancy. At some point, the remaining residents are asked to pool the vacant HOA fees, disarray, disrepair ensues. It will be an interesting ride.

I agree with the options you put forward in your post, they exist. However, rather than finding the ride "interesting" I view it as tragic.

Phuket has so much potential that is being squandered away by the wealthy and connected, and those in power here, for their own gain.

Look at the decline, and the changing tourist demographics here, in just the last 2 years.

Change is coming quickly to Phuket.

[harrry]

Every owner of cours delivers the form of a foreigner staying in his condo to immigration every time a new one arrives, Penalty for not is about 5000 baht. have to charge high rents to cover all the back cases,

[NamKangMan]

@ mcfish

Do try to post something of substance, rather than a personal attack. That said, I'll address your post,

I have no deep seated hatred of Thai's, or foreign landlords. I rent here. My landlord is a foreigner who has long since left Phuket. This is why I put forward on this thread so many times, why does he need a work permit when he isn't in Thailand?

I have never bought a bar here, or a property, and I've never lost money to a Thai lady, or sent money for a sick buffalo. I have no sour grapes. I just call Phuket as I see it.

I have the REAL luxury of being able to sell a 2 year old motor scooter for whatever i can get for it, pack a bag, and leave tomorrow, should I ever want to, have to, or need to, and I lose nothing but some rent and bond money, worse case scenario. A luxury not everyone has here, but maybe many now wish they did.

It amazes me how foreigners, such as yourself, have so much faith in a country that is failing, when compared to its poorer neighbors, and especially by global standards, and is also currently under military rule, with no election in sight.

Jeez, we are ALL only allowed to be here because we ALL have a sticker in our passports, which can be revoked at anytime. My tourist visa gives me the same rights as any other long term visa here visa here, diplomats aside - what a joke.

I'm always open to read a sensible post, so, mcfish, please tell me what economic,legal, and political factors give you so much confidence in putting ANY money in the property, or tourism industry, on Phuket, at this current time. Serious question.

[dageurreotype]

@ mcfish

Do try to post something of substance, rather than a personal attack. That said, I'll address your post,

I have no deep seated hatred of Thai's, or foreign landlords. I rent here. My landlord is a foreigner who has long since left Phuket. This is why I put forward on this thread so many times, why does he need a work permit when he isn't in Thailand?

I have never bought a bar here, or a property, and I've never lost money to a Thai lady, or sent money for a sick buffalo. I have no sour grapes. I just call Phuket as I see it.

I have the REAL luxury of being able to sell a 2 year old motor scooter for whatever i can get for it, pack a bag, and leave tomorrow, should I ever want to, have to, or need to, and I lose nothing but some rent and bond money, worse case scenario. A luxury not everyone has here, but maybe many now wish they did.

It amazes me how foreigners, such as yourself, have so much faith in a country that is failing, when compared to its poorer neighbors, and especially by global standards, and is also currently under military rule, with no election in sight.

Jeez, we are ALL only allowed to be here because we ALL have a sticker in our passports, which can be revoked at anytime. My tourist visa gives me the same rights as any other long term visa here visa here, diplomats aside - what a joke.

I'm always open to read a sensible post, so, mcfish, please tell me what economic,legal, and political factors give you so much confidence in putting ANY money in the property, or tourism industry, on Phuket, at this current time. Serious question.

All that aside, NKM, and your constant banging on about your being unencumbered here, insofar as you have no financial interests and subsist on tourist visas, the sheer amount of posts as to condo ownership/regs on these threads does raise some eyebrows. So, c'mon, fess up, how many units you got?

[fullcave]

I can confirm that the locals pay taxes on rental properties. If indeed a foreigner has a property rental business in Thailand he/she will be liable for taxes and most certainly will need a business license/ permit. That's a no brainer.

[Peterw42]

First of all, the director of Phuket Palace is always intimidating and doing his best with disinformation to profit from the condo owners there, thus the signature " Jurassic person " on this document, This man is a complete criminal who needs to be dealt with.

Finally after reading through all this nonsense there is one other person who views the OP for what it really is, nothing more than an intimidating notice to its condo owners in a development that has been in constant battles over the years with its owners. I am truly amazed that a fake letter with absolutely no substance behind it can turn into a 13 page thread. The only "confusion" is that being generated by TV by posting this.

You do not need a WP to rent out accommodation in Thailand providing you have someone doing the work for you (i.e. handing over the keys, servicing the room), if anyone advises otherwise they are giving you false information, either because they have been misinformed themselves, or they are bitterly envious towards people who own condos as they will never own one themselves. However, the whole WP thing is completely irrelevant in the case of renting a condo under 30 days as it is illegal to do so, whether you have a WP or not.

As for future condo developments all you doomsayers will be disappointed to hear that provisions are already in place for this. As another poster recently mentioned a condo building can operate as a hotel by allocating a section of the project, this will all be put into place very early on and made clear upon the owner signing the sales agreement where owners agree from day one. There are condo developers now in Phuket who are actively selling with rules in place that stipulate the owner cannot rent out the the unit themselves, therefore eliminating the potential problems with owners selling on AirBnb and the likes. One condo developer even has a rule in place that should you place your condo in the rental pool there is a compulsory cleaning fee to pay, this is during the actual owners usage days that they are allocated as part of being in the rental pool, along with the rule of not allowing owners to rent their condos out themselves this is a great idea and a step in the right direction.

Finally, a sensible, rational and factual post.

There is "NO" requirement for a WP for long term rentals.

Even if such a law exists, it has not been enforced in the past, present, and no plans to enforce it in the future.

There is no "slap in the face", "nail in the coffin" "targeting of westerners",

As nothing has changed.

Condos in Thailand are still dirt cheap and offer great rental returns.

"There is "NO" requirement for a WP for long term rentals."" - maybe, but who knows about the future? They can change this anytime they want. What can you do about it if they do???? Zero.

"Even if such a law exists, it has not been enforced in the past, present, and no plans to enforce it in the future."" - can you guarantee this? No, you can't. They can start to enforce anything they like, at anytime they like, by any means they like. If / when they do, once again, what can you do about it???? Zero.

"There is no "slap in the face", "nail in the coffin" "targeting of westerners. As nothing has changed."- for now. Once again, foreigners never really are sure where they stand in Thailand. They can target anyone they want, at anytime, for anything. You are naive if you feel protected here by any Thai laws. As a foreigner, you have no rights here.

"Condos in Thailand are still dirt cheap and offer great rental returns." - and they will continue to get cheaper and cheaper as their "returns" get smaller and smaller. What a great investment that is.

The writing is on the wall - disregard it at your own peril.

We had all better pack up and leave, The Thai Gov may bring in a law that we all have to wear chicken suits. Lots of speculation about things that may happen.

The Thai Government has no history of changing foreign ownership laws, through tsunamis, changes of Government, even marshal law.

Thai Real estate follows the same supply and demand rules as any other market in the world. So long as the population and the economy keep growing, people holiday or move here. Real estate will go up. At the moment, its not hard to find a return of over 10%. thats better than the bank or stock market.

I really cant see the "writing on the wall" you refer to.

[NamKangMan]

@ mcfish

Do try to post something of substance, rather than a personal attack. That said, I'll address your post,

I have no deep seated hatred of Thai's, or foreign landlords. I rent here. My landlord is a foreigner who has long since left Phuket. This is why I put forward on this thread so many times, why does he need a work permit when he isn't in Thailand?

I have never bought a bar here, or a property, and I've never lost money to a Thai lady, or sent money for a sick buffalo. I have no sour grapes. I just call Phuket as I see it.

I have the REAL luxury of being able to sell a 2 year old motor scooter for whatever i can get for it, pack a bag, and leave tomorrow, should I ever want to, have to, or need to, and I lose nothing but some rent and bond money, worse case scenario. A luxury not everyone has here, but maybe many now wish they did.

It amazes me how foreigners, such as yourself, have so much faith in a country that is failing, when compared to its poorer neighbors, and especially by global standards, and is also currently under military rule, with no election in sight.

Jeez, we are ALL only allowed to be here because we ALL have a sticker in our passports, which can be revoked at anytime. My tourist visa gives me the same rights as any other long term visa here visa here, diplomats aside - what a joke.

I'm always open to read a sensible post, so, mcfish, please tell me what economic,legal, and political factors give you so much confidence in putting ANY money in the property, or tourism industry, on Phuket, at this current time. Serious question.

All that aside, NKM, and your constant banging on about your being unencumbered here, insofar as you have no financial interests and subsist on tourist visas, the sheer amount of posts as to condo ownership/regs on these threads does raise some eyebrows. So, c'mon, fess up, how many units you got?

Seriously - zero. I would never buy property here.

It amazes me how members debate about what the Thai law currently is, when they can change it tomorrow, or start enforcing it from tomorrow.

It amazes me how members debate what the Thai authorities should do, or will do, when they can do whatever they want, for whatever reasons, when they want.

Such is my amazement, that I feel compelled to post.

I'm happy to debate any post I have made with any member.

You are welcome to show me the error of my ways in Thailand.

[NamKangMan]

I can confirm that the locals pay taxes on rental properties. If indeed a foreigner has a property rental business in Thailand he/she will be liable for taxes and most certainly will need a business license/ permit. That's a no brainer.

Will be interesting if / when they start chasing back taxes off foreigners.

[Peterw42]

I can confirm that the locals pay taxes on rental properties. If indeed a foreigner has a property rental business in Thailand he/she will be liable for taxes and most certainly will need a business license/ permit. That's a no brainer.

My wife has a couple of rental properties and doesnt pay tax. I think you will find a lot of Thais live under the radar in that regard. Market stalls, food vendors etc. The Tax base is the VAT and medium/ large businesses.

[Peterw42]

@ mcfish

Do try to post something of substance, rather than a personal attack. That said, I'll address your post,

I have no deep seated hatred of Thai's, or foreign landlords. I rent here. My landlord is a foreigner who has long since left Phuket. This is why I put forward on this thread so many times, why does he need a work permit when he isn't in Thailand?

I have never bought a bar here, or a property, and I've never lost money to a Thai lady, or sent money for a sick buffalo. I have no sour grapes. I just call Phuket as I see it.

I have the REAL luxury of being able to sell a 2 year old motor scooter for whatever i can get for it, pack a bag, and leave tomorrow, should I ever want to, have to, or need to, and I lose nothing but some rent and bond money, worse case scenario. A luxury not everyone has here, but maybe many now wish they did.

It amazes me how foreigners, such as yourself, have so much faith in a country that is failing, when compared to its poorer neighbors, and especially by global standards, and is also currently under military rule, with no election in sight.

Jeez, we are ALL only allowed to be here because we ALL have a sticker in our passports, which can be revoked at anytime. My tourist visa gives me the same rights as any other long term visa here visa here, diplomats aside - what a joke.

I'm always open to read a sensible post, so, mcfish, please tell me what economic,legal, and political factors give you so much confidence in putting ANY money in the property, or tourism industry, on Phuket, at this current time. Serious question.

All that aside, NKM, and your constant banging on about your being unencumbered here, insofar as you have no financial interests and subsist on tourist visas, the sheer amount of posts as to condo ownership/regs on these threads does raise some eyebrows. So, c'mon, fess up, how many units you got?

Seriously - zero. I would never buy property here.

It amazes me how members debate about what the Thai law currently is, when they can change it tomorrow, or start enforcing it from tomorrow.

It amazes me how members debate what the Thai authorities should do, or will do, when they can do whatever they want, for whatever reasons, when they want.

Such is my amazement, that I feel compelled to post.

I'm happy to debate any post I have made with any member.

You are welcome to show me the error of my ways in Thailand.

Any country in the world can change there laws at a moments notice. Thailand manufactures and exports to the world and also welcomes foreign investment. Thailand has a constitution and a common law legal system. By all the usual indicators, GDP, exports imports, value of the Baht etc, its a thriving, growing country.

I dont know were you get the notion that they will shut all that down tomorrow, Kick out the foreign investors. etc

Yes its possible, just not very probable.

[NamKangMan]

@ Peterw42

Of course there is no reason to pack up and leave. It's not really speculation that foreigners have no rights here. One should be aware of it, that's all.

"The Thai Government has no history of changing foreign ownership laws, through tsunamis, changes of Government, even marshal law." - that's because the Thai Government knows foreigners don't own a majority share in property here. It always remains in the hands of Thai's.

What is interesting about these recent developments is, the Thai's now want a cut of what foreigners are doing with their MINORITY ownership, thus possibly making even minority ownership less lucrative.

"Thai Real estate follows the same supply and demand rules as any other market in the world."" - rubbish. Foreigners can own property in many other countries in the world, 100% in their name, the land, and the bricks and mortar - not so in Thailand. This fact DOES effect the market here.

"So long as the population and the economy keep growing, people holiday or move here. Real estate will go up." - ahhhh, no. No property is moving here at the moment, and hasn't done for some time. (see other thread currently running) Prices continue to drop, dramatically, yet no one is buying.

"At the moment, its not hard to find a return of over 10%. thats better than the bank or stock market." -

"I really cant see the "writing on the wall" you refer to." - of course you can't. "My property is different" - right?

[NamKangMan]

@ mcfish

Do try to post something of substance, rather than a personal attack. That said, I'll address your post,

I have no deep seated hatred of Thai's, or foreign landlords. I rent here. My landlord is a foreigner who has long since left Phuket. This is why I put forward on this thread so many times, why does he need a work permit when he isn't in Thailand?

I have never bought a bar here, or a property, and I've never lost money to a Thai lady, or sent money for a sick buffalo. I have no sour grapes. I just call Phuket as I see it.

I have the REAL luxury of being able to sell a 2 year old motor scooter for whatever i can get for it, pack a bag, and leave tomorrow, should I ever want to, have to, or need to, and I lose nothing but some rent and bond money, worse case scenario. A luxury not everyone has here, but maybe many now wish they did.

It amazes me how foreigners, such as yourself, have so much faith in a country that is failing, when compared to its poorer neighbors, and especially by global standards, and is also currently under military rule, with no election in sight.

Jeez, we are ALL only allowed to be here because we ALL have a sticker in our passports, which can be revoked at anytime. My tourist visa gives me the same rights as any other long term visa here visa here, diplomats aside - what a joke.

I'm always open to read a sensible post, so, mcfish, please tell me what economic,legal, and political factors give you so much confidence in putting ANY money in the property, or tourism industry, on Phuket, at this current time. Serious question.

All that aside, NKM, and your constant banging on about your being unencumbered here, insofar as you have no financial interests and subsist on tourist visas, the sheer amount of posts as to condo ownership/regs on these threads does raise some eyebrows. So, c'mon, fess up, how many units you got?

Seriously - zero. I would never buy property here.

It amazes me how members debate about what the Thai law currently is, when they can change it tomorrow, or start enforcing it from tomorrow.

It amazes me how members debate what the Thai authorities should do, or will do, when they can do whatever they want, for whatever reasons, when they want.

Such is my amazement, that I feel compelled to post.

I'm happy to debate any post I have made with any member.

You are welcome to show me the error of my ways in Thailand.

Any country in the world can change there laws at a moments notice. Thailand manufactures and exports to the world and also welcomes foreign investment. Thailand has a constitution and a common law legal system. By all the usual indicators, GDP, exports imports, value of the Baht etc, its a thriving, growing country.

I dont know were you get the notion that they will shut all that down tomorrow, Kick out the foreign investors. etc

Yes its possible, just not very probable.

Please post a link to support your claims of a thriving economy.

I never said they would "kick out the foreign investors" - just make it less attractive for them to invest here. This thread shows a step in that direction. What if / when they start chasing your wife for back taxes???? Why does she, and yourself, think they will not do this, in the future?

"Yes its possible, just not very probable." - I agree, but then again, it wouldn't be the first time ridiculous decisions have be made by Government here.

[Rayk]

The screws are tightening on the welcome of foreigners in Thailand.

I can only see it getting worse in the months and years ahead.

[Rayk]

How is it even possible to get a work permit to rent out your condo.

It isn't.

[Puccini]

...Thai Real estate follows the same supply and demand rules as any other market in the world. So long as the population and the economy keep growing, people holiday or move here. Real estate will go up. At the moment, its not hard to find a return of over 10%. thats better than the bank or stock market...

Are your 10% after deduction of the following expense items?

• Depreciation
• Common fees
• Maintenance and repair
• Taxes
• Other expenses, if any

[Peterw42]

<p>

...Thai Real estate follows the same supply and demand rules as any other market in the world. So long as the population and the economy keep growing, people holiday or move here. Real estate will go up. At the moment, its not hard to find a return of over 10%. thats better than the bank or stock market...

Are your 10% after deduction of the following expense items?

• Depreciation
• Common fees
• Maintenance and repair
• Taxes
• Other expenses, if any

1,000,000 for a condo. @ 10k a month rent is 120k a year. That's 12% gross.

20k for condo fees insurance etc

10% return.

I would be lucky to get 3-4% in Australia.

[Peterw42]

I believe the government agency is getting it wrong here and maybe they dont have all the facts!!!

If the condo owner is managing it themselves, ie taking the booking, greeting the client sorting out issues and problems then yes I totally agree they are working and obviously taking a job away from a local. If a WP is obtained for managing a condo rental, be it one or 100 and the booking period is for more than 30 days as per the rules, then all is okay too. But if a condo owner uses the services of a management company to look after the running of the condo, promoting, renting, greeting customers and dealing with all other issues and the owner only receives a bank deposit at the end of the month then no rules are breached. Its the same all around the world and has been for a long long time. I think the only other issue to consider is the tax implications but that's not what this thread is about. My last point I want to put out there is its no different to a foreigner putting the equivalent amount of money (value of condo) in a thai bank and getting the monthly interest. The asset in this case is cash instead of bricks and mortar and the banking system generates the return for the owner of the asset. Should we now be needing a WP for having money in a bank? I don't think so.

Yep you nailed it!

And this is why they have never acted on the work permit law and never will because it will never hold up in court when challenged

Should a tax be imposed? no problem , just do what the Thais would do in this situation and bump up the rent

"Should a tax be imposed? no problem , just do what the Thais would do in this situation and bump up the rent" - and what will be the impact on the tourism industry as a cause of charging higher rents?

Tourists will either go elsewhere, or seek out cheaper accommodation, once again, causing a race to the bottom on pricing, and further devaluing the Phuket brand.

Tourists stay in hotels. No real impact on long term rentals.

That's what this post is about stopping tourists staying in condos short term.

[losworld]

<p>

...Thai Real estate follows the same supply and demand rules as any other market in the world. So long as the population and the economy keep growing, people holiday or move here. Real estate will go up. At the moment, its not hard to find a return of over 10%. thats better than the bank or stock market...

Are your 10% after deduction of the following expense items?

• Depreciation
• Common fees
• Maintenance and repair
• Taxes
• Other expenses, if any

1,000,000 for a condo. @ 10k a month rent is 120k a year. That's 12% gross.

20k for condo fees insurance etc

10% return.

I would be lucky to get 3-4% in Australia.

Where is someone buying for one million and renting for 12K? Unless they bought five years ago. Anything renting for that in Pattaya would cost around 2 million for example.

[NamKangMan]

I believe the government agency is getting it wrong here and maybe they dont have all the facts!!!

If the condo owner is managing it themselves, ie taking the booking, greeting the client sorting out issues and problems then yes I totally agree they are working and obviously taking a job away from a local. If a WP is obtained for managing a condo rental, be it one or 100 and the booking period is for more than 30 days as per the rules, then all is okay too. But if a condo owner uses the services of a management company to look after the running of the condo, promoting, renting, greeting customers and dealing with all other issues and the owner only receives a bank deposit at the end of the month then no rules are breached. Its the same all around the world and has been for a long long time. I think the only other issue to consider is the tax implications but that's not what this thread is about. My last point I want to put out there is its no different to a foreigner putting the equivalent amount of money (value of condo) in a thai bank and getting the monthly interest. The asset in this case is cash instead of bricks and mortar and the banking system generates the return for the owner of the asset. Should we now be needing a WP for having money in a bank? I don't think so.

Yep you nailed it!

And this is why they have never acted on the work permit law and never will because it will never hold up in court when challenged

Should a tax be imposed? no problem , just do what the Thais would do in this situation and bump up the rent

"Should a tax be imposed? no problem , just do what the Thais would do in this situation and bump up the rent" - and what will be the impact on the tourism industry as a cause of charging higher rents?

Tourists will either go elsewhere, or seek out cheaper accommodation, once again, causing a race to the bottom on pricing, and further devaluing the Phuket brand.

Tourists stay in hotels. No real impact on long term rentals.

That's what this post is about stopping tourists staying in condos short term.

"Tourists stay in hotels." - many do, but as this thread, and the other thread running shows, many do not.

"No real impact on long term rentals." - rubbish.

Raise the rent on long term renters, and most are probably expats, they will seek out either another property, or a cheaper location to reside in. Eg. Issan, Pattaya etc.

"That's what this post is about stopping tourists staying in condos short term." - yes, but if they are going to start taxing the short term rentals, why not start taxing the long term rentals????

Both are currently not paying any tax, despite the legalities of both types of rentals.

[Peterw42]

<p>

...Thai Real estate follows the same supply and demand rules as any other market in the world. So long as the population and the economy keep growing, people holiday or move here. Real estate will go up. At the moment, its not hard to find a return of over 10%. thats better than the bank or stock market...

Are your 10% after deduction of the following expense items?

• Depreciation
• Common fees
• Maintenance and repair
• Taxes
• Other expenses, if any

1,000,000 for a condo. @ 10k a month rent is 120k a year. That's 12% gross.

20k for condo fees insurance etc

10% return.

I would be lucky to get 3-4% in Australia.

Where is someone buying for one million and renting for 12K? Unless they bought five years ago. Anything renting for that in Pattaya would cost around 2 million for example.

Around jomtiem lots of 1 bed condos,1-1.2m

And listed rents 10k-15k a month.

2m can get you a 2brm with views now days.

[NamKangMan]

@ Peterw42

And the vacancy rates are...............????

A vacant property makes ZERO for the landlord here, but still attracts fees, money laundering aside.

The Russians left Jomtiem long ago.

[micmichd]

First of all, the director of Phuket Palace is always intimidating and doing his best with disinformation to profit from the condo owners there, thus the signature " Jurassic person " on this document, This man is a complete criminal who needs to be dealt with.

Finally after reading through all this nonsense there is one other person who views the OP for what it really is, nothing more than an intimidating notice to its condo owners in a development that has been in constant battles over the years with its owners. I am truly amazed that a fake letter with absolutely no substance behind it can turn into a 13 page thread. The only "confusion" is that being generated by TV by posting this.

You do not need a WP to rent out accommodation in Thailand providing you have someone doing the work for you (i.e. handing over the keys, servicing the room), if anyone advises otherwise they are giving you false information, either because they have been misinformed themselves, or they are bitterly envious towards people who own condos as they will never own one themselves. However, the whole WP thing is completely irrelevant in the case of renting a condo under 30 days as it is illegal to do so, whether you have a WP or not.

As for future condo developments all you doomsayers will be disappointed to hear that provisions are already in place for this. As another poster recently mentioned a condo building can operate as a hotel by allocating a section of the project, this will all be put into place very early on and made clear upon the owner signing the sales agreement where owners agree from day one. There are condo developers now in Phuket who are actively selling with rules in place that stipulate the owner cannot rent out the the unit themselves, therefore eliminating the potential problems with owners selling on AirBnb and the likes. One condo developer even has a rule in place that should you place your condo in the rental pool there is a compulsory cleaning fee to pay, this is during the actual owners usage days that they are allocated as part of being in the rental pool, along with the rule of not allowing owners to rent their condos out themselves this is a great idea and a step in the right direction.

Finally, a sensible, rational and factual post.

There is "NO" requirement for a WP for long term rentals.

Even if such a law exists, it has not been enforced in the past, present, and no plans to enforce it in the future.

There is no "slap in the face", "nail in the coffin" "targeting of westerners",

As nothing has changed.

Condos in Thailand are still dirt cheap and offer great rental returns.

"There is "NO" requirement for a WP for long term rentals."" - maybe, but who knows about the future? They can change this anytime they want. What can you do about it if they do???? Zero.

"Even if such a law exists, it has not been enforced in the past, present, and no plans to enforce it in the future."" - can you guarantee this? No, you can't. They can start to enforce anything they like, at anytime they like, by any means they like. If / when they do, once again, what can you do about it???? Zero.

"There is no "slap in the face", "nail in the coffin" "targeting of westerners. As nothing has changed."- for now. Once again, foreigners never really are sure where they stand in Thailand. They can target anyone they want, at anytime, for anything. You are naive if you feel protected here by any Thai laws. As a foreigner, you have no rights here.

"Condos in Thailand are still dirt cheap and offer great rental returns." - and they will continue to get cheaper and cheaper as their "returns" get smaller and smaller. What a great investment that is.

The writing is on the wall - disregard it at your own peril.

You talking about politics.

In most democratic Western countries, there's a division of powers - legislation, Implementation and jurisdiction. Well, Thailand is now heading the same way, and what in fact you complain about is political decisions. These are made in the interest of the Thai majority, none of foreigners' business.

About the rents, let's see it this way: One's advantage is the other's disadvantage. If I have to pay rent, then it would be to my advantage if prices for condos are low, because then rents tend to be lower. Why should it be any different in Thailand? If you don't like it, go to elections but don't complain if you're on the side of the minority.

About future, one thing is certain: You'll be dead one day, and that will solve all problems.