Confusion as condo owners told they must have a work permit to rent out units

[whatproblem]

If I buy motorbikes and rent them out I would need a work permit ,why the confusion,can't no one think ,if your taking money your doing a job or service ,it ain't rocket science ,are people getting more stupid or is this the same as the Thai bs " I didn't know it was wrong ,sorry"

[Ronuk]

Easy to bypass, use a agent...small fee, but worth it. They have licenses.

Not good advice. The 'Owner' would still be the recipient of the funds. Not a good idea unless you want money Laundering added to the mix?

[NamKangMan]

 

let's not kid ourselves, these rules are going to get worse, not better.

I get the sense that we as western foreigners are just collateral damage in the first few rounds of whack-a-mole against Chinese money coming in and dominating some key Thai markets.

We've been reading for years about illegal Chinese tour guides and photographers. Last week, we read about Chinese owning dozens (hundreds?) of tour buses and tourist boats through nominees. This weekend, there's more news about Chinese investors crowding the entrenched Thais out of the fruit market. I suspect this recent push against short term condo rental is directed more against a massive influx of Chinese money into the illegal, but tolerated, rental market.

Western competition has always represented a nuisance, mostly to lower level entities- because most are simply looking for a way to fund their long stay Thailand adventure.

The massive influx of Chinese money and influence represents an existential threat to the entrenched powers because they have the resources and the experience to disrupt the status quo. It seems the powerful in Thailand are just waking up to it.

I agree, but after turning away a bit portion of the western tourist market, can Phuket afford to also turn away the Chinese tourist market?

They are so busy being greedy here that they are actually losing themselves money.

If they're flying in on Chinese airplanes on tickets bought in China, riding around on Chinese owned tour buses and boats using Chinese tour guides and photographers, staying in Chinese owned condos, eating in Chinese owned restaurants, and buying souvenirs and gifts from Chinese owned shops stocked with goodies imported from China or built in Chinese owned Thai trinket factories, I don't see where they benefit Thailand above the wear and tear they bring to the resource.

And that's the way it seems to be headed unless there's some clamping down. I sense that's what's happening.

I do not disagree with you. The Chinese tourists are called "Zero Baht Tourist" for all the reasons you mention.

However, on their sheer numbers alone, they do create a lot of employment.

All those coach drivers, speed boat drivers, cooks, room cleaners, food and beverage delivery personal, etc etc etc etc are all Thai, to my knowledge. Many will be out of work.

Sure, there are some photographers and tour guides that are Chinese, but the vast amount of employment the Chinese market generates is Thai.

Take their salary out of the Phuket economy, and a percentage of it out of many Issan villages, and that's a big loss to both local economies.

Have you considered the flow on effect should the Chinese market leave Phuket?

[adhd]

hey man, thai rak thai

thai owner off course does not have to do anything and in the least pay taxes on the rest

better ask on arrival to give your wallet & be on the next plane to your home country

too bad the other countries in the world don't have the balls to impose the same stupid laws on thai citizen... but that would be unconstitutional, rascism, unequal, ...

[NamKangMan]

Didn't take long for the anti condo buying doom and gloom merchants to pipe up. So just for them I'll repeat what I've said before. In my time here I've bought and sold a number of condos here (for personal use)...and always made a decent profit.

When was the last condo you flipped?

[Dukeleto]

So, a foreign Phuket condo owner is sitting in their house in the UK, Europe, America etc, and places their condo on AirBnB.

A tourists books the condo for 2 weeks, and forwards AirBnB payment.

AirBnB forward payment to the condo owner's foreign bank account, minus commission, and the foreign condo owner is "working" in Thailand and needs a work permit.

Thailand continues to embarrass itself on the world stage.

Cant see how he can control nightly rentals on Air BNB. You need to be there to welcome them , give them keys and help with tourist questions , these people are needy. I used to rent a place out in Bangkok monthly only and that was a pain the arse and I was in the country! No way he will be using Air BNB from OS. He would be looking for minimum 1 year rental and an agent to manage busted air con unit or fridge etc

From what I have read, many condo owners doing this use the services of the onsite property manager (Thai) to arrange handing over the keys and cleaning the room, and/or, an agent (Thai).

The property managers and agents have full knowledge of what is going on.

If so, bye bye foreign property investors.

What does that do to the value of properties on Phuket?

It makes them virtually worthless in a market that already had barely a pulse. Many foreigners who purchased condos, town houses or villas who no longer reside in them for any number of reasons really have no choice but to rent them out in order to re-coup the yearly payments and maintenance costs which can be quite substantial. This move to enforce the law will cripple the property market completely and the knock on affect is going to have a serious impact on Phuket. There are thousands of people employed by these places. If the hotels think this will increase their bookings I think they are sadly mistaken as the people choosing the alternates to hotels will not be booking their next holiday at a hotel in Phuket because their usual accommodation is not available. They were coming because those options were available! As fewer people come to Phuket so all the other services will suffer and begin to shut down thus not giving the place the vibe it once had. This will snowball and as each sucessive high season passes the effects of this will begin to show. I suspect Patong will see the biggest change from this. They have already lost half of Jung Ceylon, this is just another nail. What they should be doing is allowing condo owners to register and comply with safety etc and pay the necessary taxes etc. This would be the most sensible thing to do and everyone wins including the hotels but they won't think so until they realise shutting all these places down will actually be their undoing.

[Ronuk]

I think it's safe to assume that this new law will not help to boost the sales of new condo units. Most condo owners who do not live there would like to rent out .

It is not a new Law. It has always been illegal to earn an income in Thailand and not be in possession of a work permit. They are just applying the law which has always been there. You cannot just do what you like here anymore and in my mind, that is fair enough. Just the same as they are coming down on Tourist Visas being used to live in the country on a full time basis. It's all coming to an end.

True. But only FAIR enough IF you could actually GET a WP. In this instance you can't get one for purely renting out your own property. It's the same as the many online internet workers be they call centre, teachers etc.. no WP exists that an individual can get without a Thai registered company backing them.

The same as many other countries in the world where work permits are required for foreign nationals. Thailand have decided it's time to catch up. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't see anything wrong with it quite honestly.

[NamKangMan]

Next thing you will see is a law that restricts farang from selling their own condo or house without a work permit.

The joy of renting .....

I see a bright future for renters on Phuket.

[NamKangMan]

I think it's safe to assume that this new law will not help to boost the sales of new condo units. Most condo owners who do not live there would like to rent out .

It is not a new Law. It has always been illegal to earn an income in Thailand and not be in possession of a work permit. They are just applying the law which has always been there. You cannot just do what you like here anymore and in my mind, that is fair enough. Just the same as they are coming down on Tourist Visas being used to live in the country on a full time basis. It's all coming to an end.

True. But only FAIR enough IF you could actually GET a WP. In this instance you can't get one for purely renting out your own property. It's the same as the many online internet workers be they call centre, teachers etc.. no WP exists that an individual can get without a Thai registered company backing them.

The same as many other countries in the world where work permits are required for foreign nationals. Thailand have decided it's time to catch up. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't see anything wrong with it quite honestly.

So, when do you think they will "catch up" and start genuinely offering residency status, and citizenship, like "many other countries?"

[Ronuk]

So, a foreign Phuket condo owner is sitting in their house in the UK, Europe, America etc, and places their condo on AirBnB.

A tourists books the condo for 2 weeks, and forwards AirBnB payment.

AirBnB forward payment to the condo owner's foreign bank account, minus commission, and the foreign condo owner is "working" in Thailand and needs a work permit.

Thailand continues to embarrass itself on the world stage.

Cant see how he can control nightly rentals on Air BNB. You need to be there to welcome them , give them keys and help with tourist questions , these people are needy. I used to rent a place out in Bangkok monthly only and that was a pain the arse and I was in the country! No way he will be using Air BNB from OS. He would be looking for minimum 1 year rental and an agent to manage busted air con unit or fridge etc

From what I have read, many condo owners doing this use the services of the onsite property manager (Thai) to arrange handing over the keys and cleaning the room, and/or, an agent (Thai).

The property managers and agents have full knowledge of what is going on.

If so, bye bye foreign property investors.

What does that do to the value of properties on Phuket?

It makes them virtually worthless in a market that already had barely a pulse. Many foreigners who purchased condos, town houses or villas who no longer reside in them for any number of reasons really have no choice but to rent them out in order to re-coup the yearly payments and maintenance costs which can be quite substantial. This move to enforce the law will cripple the property market completely and the knock on affect is going to have a serious impact on Phuket. There are thousands of people employed by these places. If the hotels think this will increase their bookings I think they are sadly mistaken as the people choosing the alternates to hotels will not be booking their next holiday at a hotel in Phuket because their usual accommodation is not available. They were coming because those options were available! As fewer people come to Phuket so all the other services will suffer and begin to shut down thus not giving the place the vibe it once had. This will snowball and as each sucessive high season passes the effects of this will begin to show. I suspect Patong will see the biggest change from this. They have already lost half of Jung Ceylon, this is just another nail. What they should be doing is allowing condo owners to register and comply with safety etc and pay the necessary taxes etc. This would be the most sensible thing to do and everyone wins including the hotels but they won't think so until they realise shutting all these places down will actually be their undoing.

It is country wide, not just Phuket.

[casualbiker]

I think it's safe to assume that this new law will not help to boost the sales of new condo units. Most condo owners who do not live there would like to rent out .

It is not a new Law. It has always been illegal to earn an income in Thailand and not be in possession of a work permit. They are just applying the law which has always been there. You cannot just do what you like here anymore and in my mind, that is fair enough. Just the same as they are coming down on Tourist Visas being used to live in the country on a full time basis. It's all coming to an end.

True. But only FAIR enough IF you could actually GET a WP. In this instance you can't get one for purely renting out your own property. It's the same as the many online internet workers be they call centre, teachers etc.. no WP exists that an individual can get without a Thai registered company backing them.

The same as many other countries in the world where work permits are required for foreign nationals. Thailand have decided it's time to catch up. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't see anything wrong with it quite honestly.

Can you name any countries that require a WP for working but then cannot provide a WP for that work?

[newnative]

Bring on the enforcement. Short-termers should be in hotels, not residential condos.

[mcfish]

I think it's safe to assume that this new law will not help to boost the sales of new condo units. Most condo owners who do not live there would like to rent out .

It is not a new Law. It has always been illegal to earn an income in Thailand and not be in possession of a work permit. They are just applying the law which has always been there. You cannot just do what you like here anymore and in my mind, that is fair enough. Just the same as they are coming down on Tourist Visas being used to live in the country on a full time basis. It's all coming to an end.

where does it say they are applying the work permit law in regards to condo rentals?

[Khun Paul]

When I came here I was interested in do as others have done to make a small income on my investment, luckily I had an astute accountant who said

1 Start a company ( done )

2 Put all purchases to rent out in said companies name ( done )

Although initially cost was high setting up things etc, every year audit and accountancy fees still net me a profit that is acceptable and I still have control over the properties.

Nowadays starting a company is a lot harder and more hoops to go through .

Taxes are paid as are all other fees, but I do not have the authorities looking over my shoulder, I am considered a good company . Do I have a work permit yes based on the company do I work no but costs are so low it dopes not matter.

many try to make money and not pay taxes or other fees or statutory costs, they are the ones now wondering , wherever you make money taxes or someone has to be paid if you don't you will eventually be caught.

[casualbiker]

I think it's safe to assume that this new law will not help to boost the sales of new condo units. Most condo owners who do not live there would like to rent out .

It is not a new Law. It has always been illegal to earn an income in Thailand and not be in possession of a work permit. They are just applying the law which has always been there. You cannot just do what you like here anymore and in my mind, that is fair enough. Just the same as they are coming down on Tourist Visas being used to live in the country on a full time basis. It's all coming to an end.

True. But only FAIR enough IF you could actually GET a WP. In this instance you can't get one for purely renting out your own property. It's the same as the many online internet workers be they call centre, teachers etc.. no WP exists that an individual can get without a Thai registered company backing them.

The same as many other countries in the world where work permits are required for foreign nationals. Thailand have decided it's time to catch up. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't see anything wrong with it quite honestly.

So, when do you think they will "catch up" and start genuinely offering residency status, and citizenship, like "many other countries?"

Ummm they already do.. it's called Permanent residency and Thai Nationality. http://www.thaiembassy.com/thailand/thai-permanent-residency.php. http://www.yaiban.com/thai-citizenship-requirements.php

[NamKangMan]

I think it's safe to assume that this new law will not help to boost the sales of new condo units. Most condo owners who do not live there would like to rent out .

It is not a new Law. It has always been illegal to earn an income in Thailand and not be in possession of a work permit. They are just applying the law which has always been there. You cannot just do what you like here anymore and in my mind, that is fair enough. Just the same as they are coming down on Tourist Visas being used to live in the country on a full time basis. It's all coming to an end.

True. But only FAIR enough IF you could actually GET a WP. In this instance you can't get one for purely renting out your own property. It's the same as the many online internet workers be they call centre, teachers etc.. no WP exists that an individual can get without a Thai registered company backing them.

The same as many other countries in the world where work permits are required for foreign nationals. Thailand have decided it's time to catch up. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't see anything wrong with it quite honestly.

So, when do you think they will "catch up" and start genuinely offering residency status, and citizenship, like "many other countries?"

Ummm they already do.. it's called Permanent residency and Thai Nationality. http://www.thaiembassy.com/thailand/thai-permanent-residency.php. http://www.yaiban.com/thai-citizenship-requirements.php

Note the word, "genuinely."

[Deepinthailand]

Can anyone confirm or deny the statement that units bought under the foreign quota (I'm assuming that's the 49%?) can only be purchased for personal dwelling? And does that mean the personal dwelling of the owner only- i.e., not for rent to others?That would put quite a wet blanket on some of my foreign coworkers who own multiple condos for rental income...

Or they simply allow there wifes to buy them problem solved and no not your money gift you give your wife which I belive is allowed.

[Peterw42]

I wonder how Time-Share units fit into this. Buy two weeks a year for X amount ? The way I read it is that Time-Shares also can not be legal unless they are for one month.

Time share is multiple "owners" of one property, not renters.

[casualbiker]

I think it's safe to assume that this new law will not help to boost the sales of new condo units. Most condo owners who do not live there would like to rent out .

It is not a new Law. It has always been illegal to earn an income in Thailand and not be in possession of a work permit. They are just applying the law which has always been there. You cannot just do what you like here anymore and in my mind, that is fair enough. Just the same as they are coming down on Tourist Visas being used to live in the country on a full time basis. It's all coming to an end.

True. But only FAIR enough IF you could actually GET a WP. In this instance you can't get one for purely renting out your own property. It's the same as the many online internet workers be they call centre, teachers etc.. no WP exists that an individual can get without a Thai registered company backing them.

The same as many other countries in the world where work permits are required for foreign nationals. Thailand have decided it's time to catch up. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't see anything wrong with it quite honestly.

So, when do you think they will "catch up" and start genuinely offering residency status, and citizenship, like "many other countries?"

Ummm they already do.. it's called Permanent residency and Thai Nationality. http://www.thaiembassy.com/thailand/thai-permanent-residency.php. http://www.yaiban.com/thai-citizenship-requirements.php

Note the word, "genuinely."

I did and they do.. every one knows the rules. They are not hiding anything.. permanent resident is about as difficult as many other countries.. citizenship is harder but not impossible.. most Westerners are decrying the massive and relatively easy immigration in their own country but also want Thailand to be the same. Hypocritical. No?

[pmh2009]

Desi this apply to the whole of Thailand or ONLY PHUKET????

[Deepinthailand]

If your renting your earning if your earning you have to pay tax. So quite simple really you require a WP. Don't care if you rent short time or long time you require a WP. Oh the WP brigade will love this thread. It will be rolled out all over soon. Then there will be tantrums.

[Ronuk]

I think it's safe to assume that this new law will not help to boost the sales of new condo units. Most condo owners who do not live there would like to rent out .

It is not a new Law. It has always been illegal to earn an income in Thailand and not be in possession of a work permit. They are just applying the law which has always been there. You cannot just do what you like here anymore and in my mind, that is fair enough. Just the same as they are coming down on Tourist Visas being used to live in the country on a full time basis. It's all coming to an end.

where does it say they are applying the work permit law in regards to condo rentals?

'Units under Foreign quota'. It isn't hard to understand. It also isn't hard to understand that you MUST have a WP to earn or receive any income derived in Thailand. At the end of the day it's up to owners how they see it and how they want to proceed. Work permit or not, it's illegal anyway for a non Thai National to rent a Condo out. The Law states they are only sold for personal use.

[Ronuk]

Desi this apply to the whole of Thailand or ONLY PHUKET????

The whole of Thailand.

[gemguy]

OK...OK...We get it

Meantime, can you make the apartment available for short time Boom Boom Room???

Cheers

[micmichd]

I think it's safe to assume that this new law will not help to boost the sales of new condo units. Most condo owners who do not live there would like to rent out .

Most Farang condo owners will simply have to go if they can't legalize their business with the help of Thais.

[Ronuk]

Can anyone confirm or deny the statement that units bought under the foreign quota (I'm assuming that's the 49%?) can only be purchased for personal dwelling? And does that mean the personal dwelling of the owner only- i.e., not for rent to others?That would put quite a wet blanket on some of my foreign coworkers who own multiple condos for rental income...

Or they simply allow there wifes to buy them problem solved and no not your money gift you give your wife which I belive is allowed.

Your 'Wife' will need to prove the money came from her own right and not 'Gifted' from outside of Thailand.

[impulse]

Have you considered the flow on effect should the Chinese market leave Phuket?

There's an outside chance the western tourists will return- slowly for sure, willing to pay a premium because they aren't elbow to elbow everywhere they turn.

Don't get me wrong. I like the Chinese people, rude, loud and all. I'm posting this from a holiday in China. By choice.

But throngs of any kind of people don't make for a favorable beach holiday experience on an island with limited space and overloaded sewage and sanitary facilities. Unless there's gambling. The more the merrier if there's gambling. I won't be there- I don't like gambling or the atmosphere surrounding it, but a lot of my friends would be on the next plane.

[bkkcanuck8]

I wonder how Time-Share units fit into this. Buy two weeks a year for X amount ? The way I read it is that Time-Shares also can not be legal unless they are for one month.

Time share is multiple "owners" of one property, not renters.

time-share by itself does not imply a specific ownership structure. It could be owned in full by the members, leased in part, or just buying the right to use with the ownership held in some legal entity.

In Thailand where there is regulatory weakness - I would not touch them with a 10 foot pole.

Any timeshare where you owned it would still be limited to 49% foreign owned under some sort of condo/corporate structure... What do you do with the other 51%, what are your rights.... I have no personal experience with them here.

[NoshowJones]

So to qualify for a work permit you must employ four Thais, what are they going to do?

Four housekeepers in a 1 bedroom condo????

[elgordo38]

So, a foreign Phuket condo owner is sitting in their house in the UK, Europe, America etc, and places their condo on AirBnB.

A tourists books the condo for 2 weeks, and forwards AirBnB payment.

AirBnB forward payment to the condo owner's foreign bank account, minus commission, and the foreign condo owner is "working" in Thailand and needs a work permit.

Phuket continues to embarrass itself on the world stage.

Yes its embarrassing but everyone wants their pound of flesh today. This law should be part of every sellers notification to prospective buyers and developers the same. Again the government comes along after the fact and enforces rules that were never properly explained and well now we know. AGAIN another reason I would never buy anything here in LOS. Land Of Surprises. Gotcha. It would only be fair that condo buyers should be able to go back to the real estate person and sue them for not providing enough information.