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KLL

water heater type question

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here the english circuit: ( for 451AX-DW )

https://goo.gl/photos/amQq1gvTezS2JHx76

and a photo of the internals of that AX model

https://goo.gl/photos/j9vYuPmEH3nQhnts9

i read about that the 4.5kW unit has a NOT resetable ( > 85degC ) thermostat

( must be replaced )

now i think that was the service action after the unit was not heating at all.

so i see that this unit has one heating element only

? the TRIAC is for ON / OFF or for temperature control?

the different vietnamese manual circuit indicates temperature control by thermostat setpoint potentiometer,

but i miss a symbol for a temperature sensor, only see temperature switches??

a reason why it can heat even if there is no water-flow at all could only be that the flow-sensor ( >2l/min ) is stuck or the

"Main Control PCB" is faulty.

i still have no idea what is the FLOW sensor or how it works.

GOOD MORNING THAILAND

this morning i tested again and the unit worked.

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Do you have any way to check your electric power? The electronics might have an issue if have low voltage - find basic units seem to work better than the automatic types and are easy enough to turn hotter/cooler manually.

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very good argument, yes the power is bad, my desktop UPS clicking all the time, nearby other building site, possible use same phase for welding??.

i will check by multimeter, but no osci available.

and i see under the upper PCB a old style transformer power-supply. possibly can measure DC there?

main: 227 VAC under load 204 VAC

DC 10V

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Be careful - a transformer does not turn AC into DC. Just check in an outlet socket someplace as that will be much safer. I suspect power is good now and that is why running OK but when you normally shower it is likely very low.

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update:

i asked the Electrolux service to check about water pressure and electric ( volt == pressure )

and "he jumped on that train "

we see volt jump down from 220 below 200.. 190 when heater on ( and good operation / no malfunction to show! )

we verify same also on the PEA electric counter ( the seal was gone long ago by some building workers ) , to check that the house internal wires and connections are OK

there is no spec about the min supply voltage, but the AX manual states operation at 220, 230, 240 VAC,

also the vietnamese BX manual.

-- but i am now facing the situation that i loose the chance to claim a new unit,

-- that i need to buy a smaller heater

-- that i doubt the newer "electronic" types

and the PEA thing??

i not want to open a new topic,

what is it about the "temporary" electric power ( with about 8 baht/kWh )

until you can have a house number... and can get the real contract ( at about 4 baht/kWh )

house must be finished 80% then can get house number, house book ( blue ) and register me ( house book ( yellow )?)

and can get post , telephone AND ?final? electric..

is there a limit 15A? limited by what?

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15 amp meter is the normal single phase power for mid-larger homes here - 5 amp for older one room is normal - but that 15 amp meter provides up to 45 amps and is all most homes use with normal home main 63 amp breaker. Cost will likely be about 5 baht per unit.

Expect you may have issues when the voltage gets a bit lower - which may happen at night.

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15 amp meter is the normal single phase power for mid-larger homes here but that 15 amp meter provides up to 45 amps and is all most homes use with normal home main 63 amp breaker. Cost will likely be about 5 baht per unit.

ok, i expect that in near future when the big house is built,

( but the temporary contract (for new land without house number..) and the near 8 baht/kWh bill now from PEA is REAL )

so i have to live with that bad PEA supply forever? AND i have to change

-- to 3.5kW heater unit

OR

-- to 3phase counter/contract and heaters?

and all means? single phase 4.5kW units are better not to be used? because they are out of spec for 90% of all house power supply / PEA contract? including the consequences that warranty question get difficult.

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A 15A meter (actually a 15/45) is good for 45A+, ours is on a 50A incomer. Multiple aircons, fairly meaty water heaters, pool, ponds, 5HP of irrigation etc.etc. it's never got near 50A.

Your temporary supply is almost certainly a 15/45, look at the meter.

It probably varies by area, but we had a PEA inspector round to look at the electrics before they would swap to a permanent supply. You will need your blue book in place in any case.

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so it is correct that they will change the meter after you get house-number / book

( sounds very stupid, need for changing contract is already questionable. )

yes, i will look for meter info

_________________________________________________________________________

just to compare:

other house, contract, village

4.5kW heater brand Stiebel-Eltron

223VAC down to 204 VAC

so a 20V dip in the supply when you run a 4,5kW heater is very normal

and i think it should not effect the operation of electronics.. inside!!!!

any cheap switching power supply work from 85VAC up and supply const. DC for electronic...

other side, the heater is a normal resistor, it should work at any voltage, just not bring the expected power / water temperature.

safety switches like

++ LOW FLOW

++ HIGHT TEMP

work also independent from main voltage!!

but should disconnect the main and not be the "input" to some questionable electronic

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Are you actually saying anything will work at 85v AC and up? Good luck with that theory. Suspect you may be thinking of 110/220 multi voltage low power items - not items designed to work at 220v?

Expect in fact you will find little will operate below 180v and even most lights will likely fail below about 160v

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Are you actually saying anything will work at 85v AC and up? Good luck with that theory.

NO, i say a switching power supply to drive any DC electronic can work from 85VAC up.

and a heater element and its safety switches TSH, FSL have to work at any VOLT,

just might not produce very hot water at low volt

YES, i need good luck!

___________________________________________________________________________________________

TOO LATE

i just took a shower, water was very hot,

i turn the temperature dial down, still too hot

i turn the temperature dial to OFF, still too hot,

i press the TEST button and water gets COLD

i happen to meter the VAC : 207 when water hot. when water cold 230 VAC

i STOP the water flow

i press the RESET button

first little water come out, then steam ! water inlet valve closed ! ( that now happened 3 times already )

___________________________________________________________________________________________

can someone agree that that design / model is a health risk?

because it can not be ( only ) a faulty unit, it must be a design flaw

i like to send that heater in for a check,

like TÜV SÜD THAILAND Pathumthani?

but i worry they only want paid business inquiries

not so much work for customer protection...

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You are likely running outside of its operating voltage range as automatic heater control seems bad (turn off unit power and no more heating). Much better to use dumb system where you move a rheostat type switch when using suspect voltage.

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KLL, your heater does not have a switch mode PSU, the heat control electronics is more akin to a large triac lamp dimmer.

207V should be fine to make it work correctly, since it is not are you certain you have adequate water pressure? You need to have a good flow from the shower head, with the flow at maximum the water should be hot but not scalding.

With the power off drop the shower head in a bucket and run the water for 60 seconds, measure the amount of water in the bucket (litres), that will give you a measure of the available flow rate, check against the heater instructions.

If there's enough water one can only conclude that the unit is defective, take it back for a refund / replacement with a heater of a different type.

We have a 3.5kW Panasonic which works well and didn't cost the earth.

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-a- yes i suspect, that was just theory to say it should be possible to operate DC electronics with SWPS from 85VAC up,

so if my heater ?electronics? is sensitive already at 207VAC,

can call it bad luck or bad design?

would be nice if someone could confirm that 20VAC voltage drop with 4.5kW heater operation ( checked at any plug outlet )

( i see it at 2 locations already, so i would like to call it NORMAL and expect a heater design could cope with that )

-b- flowcheck ( both valve full open / same condition at my last shower )

2min11sec for 10L --> >4.5l/min


Much better to use dumb system where you move a rheostat type switch

i would agree to that now!


and OLD MAN, OLD HARDWARE, no problem..

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