Pattaya going downhill!

[mcfish]

43 minutes ago, midas said:

 

" the only way forward is up "

 

The rest of the world is furiously fighting deflationary forces (and losing miserably) and now many believe the 20 year Japanese bear market in property is making its way to the USA. Why do you believe Pattaya is so unique in the world that it will be able to shrug off such trends?

huh?

dude whatever your smoking stop it..right now

[camble]

There's no place to sit on Beach Road.

[JSixpack]

1 hour ago, camble said:

There's no place to sit on Beach Road.

 

There is limited seating on Beach Road. Discussed recently here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/934022-seating-on-the-beach-road/#comment-10993625

 

[pegman]

On August 9, 2016 at 6:10 AM, moonseeker said:

+ 1

I guess, who has not witnessed the good & fun years here until about 8 years ago, when everything slowly started to get worse and worse, has nothing to compare the Pattaya-today to the good old times. Just open your eyes and see all the shops closed, buildings decaying, garbage and horrible smells everywhere, not even talking about the now officially "Most happy people/country" in the world.

Gottabekidding...55555555555555

A collection of low-class tourists and cheap-charlie residents of the worst kind. Well, I am told by a friend to be more tolerant and let these old folks have their fun, so I better stop my rant and keep surfing the net for alternative destinations......MS>

 

 

 

 

 

It's always seemed to me that young guys spending time in Pattaya must be real losers.

[Peterw42]

9 hours ago, Seizetheday said:

Ok, I'm gunna be objective. 

In the 6 years I've lived in my estate I've never seen so many empty houses. One house has been reduced from 65 million to 45 million and still can't sell.

The Baht is over valued to most western currencies apart from the US dollar.

Chinese are taking up some of the slack from the Russians, however not in the numbers required to make a big difference in demand.

There is still an over supply of properties built on the premise of a huge increase in Russian visitors/purchasers that hasn't materialised.

Oh, and I have no vested interested in talking property up or down.

Unbiased objectivity, try it.

 

Were are you getting figures of 65 million Baht for a house, thats a couple of million US. Even 6.5 million would be a high price.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 10 สิงหาคม 2559 at 8:58 AM, craigt3365 said:

I've got a friend who owns a unit in one of these new buildings.  Buyers are just walking away from their contracts.  Hundreds of units up for resale.  Like mentioned before, the big problem will be when they can't afford the maintenance.  Or, don't build it like they promised.

 

I've been driving around a bit and taking notice of all the closed shop houses.  It's scary.

Sounds good to me. The sooner it fails completely, the sooner they can start rebuilding it back to what it always was before city council decided to try and make a silk purse  out of a pig's ear. The infrastructure can never be impoved without destroying half the city, so it just ain't gonna happen.

The disastrous walkway project is a classic example of how to make an even bigger mess out of a smaller mess.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 10 สิงหาคม 2559 at 9:37 PM, JSixpack said:

So we gotta do CONDO GLUT again with the usual confusion of ownership vs occupancy (only proven by the lights on late every night).

 

Seems a major issue for the OP is the offense to delicate aesthetic sensibilities posed by unfinished buildings.

 

Yet Pattaya has has always had unfinished buildings, vacant shophouses, and even some mostly vacant pseudo malls. Nothing really new there and characteristic of Third World countries even in good economic times. I observed quite a few throughout Mexico, "so far from God, so close to the (major trading partner) USA."

 

Northshore, now, was for years an unfinished abandoned building right there on Beach Road. Now THAT was an eyesore. But nobody made a big deal out of it. Guess men were men back in them days. Of course renovating it put it on our TVF architects' "going to collapse" list w/ Central; surely Waterfront will be on there too.  Sois Lenkee and Chaiyapoon were once miserable and mostly closed up.

 

Meantime we've had, and will have, hundreds of new shops (cough!) opening up--a fact always ignored in our DOOM threads. Contrary to the TVF "NO CHANGE EVER" measure of economic success, businesses win and lose and the only constant is change. That some of the new businesses, often mom 'n' pops opened on a shoestring, will fail is a given, and no doubt in time others will occupy the spaces if not IMMEDIATELY.

 

Though the Pattaya economy has undergone a vast expansion over the last 7 years, the overbuilding (some merely failed attempts to overbuild) misleads our barstool economists. Our renters are always wanting to believe that property owners are "having nightmares" and "desperate to sell" etc. when very few really are. Of the many thousands of owners only handful ever complain here; the complainers, ironically, are the renters, most of whom can't afford to buy anyway. In fact the proportion of unhappy owners is far higher in USA than here for one reason or another, such as overextended credit or wrong location.

 

I've often said and still believe that Pattaya has something for everybody. Stay a couple years, look around, move around (as I certainly have) and eventually most expats can find a situation they're happier with here than elsewhere in Thailand, I think. Inevitably Chiang Mai has been brought up--without even mentioning the notorious seasonal air pollution that many claim makes it unlivable. You gotta be objective.

 

 

 

 

Yet Pattaya has has always had unfinished buildings, vacant shophouses, and even some mostly vacant pseudo malls.

 

Hmmmmm. Not so. Most vacant buildings only happened after the '98/ 99 crash when a building boom had occured in the bubble. I don't remember any significant numbers of empty shophouses anywhere before 98, and the only malls before 98 were the Big C, Mike and Royal Garden, all of which were full of customers, most of the time.

The only places that failed significantly were the shops in the big building beside Dolphin Roundabout ( it wasn't a mall as such ), a big hotel on Beach Rd that was closed many years before 98 for what reason I don't know and the bar beer area behind the Made in Thailand shops, when the Chinese Opera was still there. Nothing compared to post 99.

[onemorechang]

59 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Yet Pattaya has has always had unfinished buildings, vacant shophouses, and even some mostly vacant pseudo malls.

 

Hmmmmm. Not so. Most vacant buildings only happened after the '98/ 99 crash when a building boom had occured in the bubble. I don't remember any significant numbers of empty shophouses anywhere before 98, and the only malls before 98 were the Big C, Mike and Royal Garden, all of which were full of customers, most of the time.

The only places that failed significantly were the shops in the big building beside Dolphin Roundabout ( it wasn't a mall as such ), a big hotel on Beach Rd that was closed many years before 98 for what reason I don't know and the bar beer area behind the Made in Thailand shops, when the Chinese Opera was still there. Nothing compared to post 99.

 

Does Jomtien complex count ?

Was very empty for years.   even had escalators,  never used all round the place.

 

 

 

[Seizetheday]

10 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

 

Were are you getting figures of 65 million Baht for a house, thats a couple of million US. Even 6.5 million would be a high price.

Not really,  there are many villages that have houses for sale with price tags over a million US. Siam Royal View, Paradise Villas 1 & 2, View Talay Villas, Majestic Villas. Jomtien Park Villas probably has the odd house for sale around a million.

Siam Royal View has a house for sale for over 100 million Baht I believe. Overpriced, obviously, but Pattaya does have some great villages.

[JSixpack]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Yet Pattaya has has always had unfinished buildings, vacant shophouses, and even some mostly vacant pseudo malls.

 

Hmmmmm. Not so. Most vacant buildings only happened after the '98/ 99 crash when a building boom had occured in the bubble. I don't remember any significant numbers of empty shophouses anywhere before 98, and the only malls before 98 were the Big C, Mike and Royal Garden, all of which were full of customers, most of the time.

The only places that failed significantly were the shops in the big building beside Dolphin Roundabout ( it wasn't a mall as such ), a big hotel on Beach Rd that was closed many years before 98 for what reason I don't know and the bar beer area behind the Made in Thailand shops, when the Chinese Opera was still there. Nothing compared to post 99.

 

It's exactly as I said. I dunno whether your misreading is conscious or unconscious. But it's tedious having to repeat, refresh your memory, and simplify for you.

 

Quote

Most vacant buildings only happened after the '98/ 99 crash when a building boom had occured in the bubble.

I don't remember any significant numbers of empty shophouses anywhere before 98, and the only malls before 98 were the Big C, Mike and Royal Garden, all of which were full of customers, most of the time.

The only places that failed significantly were the shops in the big building beside Dolphin Roundabout ( it wasn't a mall as such ), a big hotel on Beach Rd that was closed many years before 98 for what reason I don't know and the bar beer area behind the Made in Thailand shops, when the Chinese Opera was still there. Nothing compared to post 99.

 

We can always push back the clock to some time when there were fewer vacant shop houses. How about 1955? Yep, not ONE vacant shophouse then. Happy now?

 

Though you seem to live in the 1980s and 90s, that was in fact quite a long time ago in a different world. It's only more recent history that's particularly relevant. I said pseudo malls. Yep the big building beside Dolphin Roundabout qualifies. But with your typically selective memory you missed the huge complex way down Jomtien Beach Rd that became known as the "Jomtien Ruins." It never took off either and to this day is still full of vacant shophouses. And there was also the Day Night pseudo mall that became Tukcom. Jomtien Complex also counts to a lesser extent, tnx onemorechang.

 

So, to repeat, there were always unfinished buildings, vacant shophouses, and even some mostly vacant pseudo malls. YES, there more after 1999 OF COURSE for the most obvious reasons. And the fact there were more after 1999 should then make it no surprise at all that, duh, there still are--which is my point. 

 

The critical point you carefully ignore is that though more shops were vacant after 1999, far more of them opened up. That trend continues.

 

You see, there's never been any date written in the sky as to when ALL the unfinished buildings and vacant shophouses were supposed to magically disappear. Hence though we SO want to pronounce The Final Days upon us, and dream that it'll be 1995 in Pattaya once more (cue The Carpenters), better just face the reality that it's 2016 now and the transformation of Pattaya is continuing with even more development.

 

 

 

 

[Scotwight]

17 hours ago, JSixpack said:

 

There is limited seating on Beach Road. Discussed recently here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/934022-seating-on-the-beach-road/#comment-10993625

 

Go to the Edge restaurant at the Hilton and have a seat outside and look at the beach.  Lots of seating available.  Nice restrooms and the ladies are really nice looking.

[JSixpack]

On Thursday, August 11, 2016 at 9:05 PM, Seizetheday said:

Ok, I'm gunna be objective.

 

No, you don't know the meaning of that word. Sorry.

 

Quote

In the 6 years I've lived in my estate I've never seen so many empty houses. One house has been reduced from 65 million to 45 million and still can't sell.

 

But to be objective you'd need also to point out the properties that are selling. Mcfish did. I've never seen so many condos occupied near me, parking lot full, two sold just recently. Now just today I saw more shoppers at Lotus than I've ever seen in all my years in Pattaya! No kidding. Restaurants packed out.

 

For every anecdote there's a counter-anecdote. Being objective, I didn't disagree that Chiang Mai has its attractions compared to Pattaya but it has its pollution, too. And while I agree we have vacant shophouses, I also note we've also had more of them opening up. I also readily agreed that there's been overbuilding, though such does mislead our barstool economists. I didn't mention overpricing, but yep.

 

Now even if your little anecdote about one house happens to be true, which is doubtful, I suspect nobody believes it much supports the OP's contention that Pattaya is going downhill! For the OP, when you put aside mere speculation and 20-year-old whinges that've proven inconsequential, downhill means mainly the delicate matter of aesthetics and the horror of the 800-2,500b barfine.

 

Quote

The Baht is over valued to most western currencies apart from the US dollar.

 

Is it?  We can all take that to the bank, lol. But then Pattaya's transformation was greatest when the baht was at 25 to the dollar. Maybe it's all a little more complicated than you realize.

 

Jeez, we got only 2 1/2 months before Harbor Mall closes! But I noticed quite a few shoppers in there the other day, motorbike show and all. Looks like by now we'd be seeing a couple of floors closed at least!

 

[onemorechang]

9 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Yet Pattaya has has always had unfinished buildings, vacant shophouses, and even some mostly vacant pseudo malls.

 

Hmmmmm. Not so. Most vacant buildings only happened after the '98/ 99 crash when a building boom had occured in the bubble. I don't remember any significant numbers of empty shophouses anywhere before 98, and the only malls before 98 were the Big C, Mike and Royal Garden, all of which were full of customers, most of the time.

The only places that failed significantly were the shops in the big building beside Dolphin Roundabout ( it wasn't a mall as such ), a big hotel on Beach Rd that was closed many years before 98 for what reason I don't know and the bar beer area behind the Made in Thailand shops, when the Chinese Opera was still there. Nothing compared to post 99.

 

There was one more outside mall type place along Jomtien beach

Cant remember the name, about 3/4 way down the beach,  just before the old

steam train.

That place never took off.  anyone remember the name ?

 

 

 

[OMGImInPattaya]

11 hours ago, JSixpack said:

 

No, you don't know the meaning of that word. Sorry.

 

 

But to be objective you'd need also to point out the properties that are selling. Mcfish did. I've never seen so many condos occupied near me, parking lot full, two sold just recently. Now just today I saw more shoppers at Lotus than I've ever seen in all my years in Pattaya! No kidding. Restaurants packed out.

 

For every anecdote there's a counter-anecdote. Being objective, I didn't disagree that Chiang Mai has its attractions compared to Pattaya but it has its pollution, too. And while I agree we have vacant shophouses, I also note we've also had more of them opening up. I also readily agreed that there's been overbuilding, though such does mislead our barstool economists. I didn't mention overpricing, but yep.

 

Now even if your little anecdote about one house happens to be true, which is doubtful, I suspect nobody believes it much supports the OP's contention that Pattaya is going downhill! For the OP, when you put aside mere speculation and 20-year-old whinges that've proven inconsequential, downhill means mainly the delicate matter of aesthetics and the horror of the 800-2,500b barfine.

 

 

Is it?  We can all take that to the bank, lol. But then Pattaya's transformation was greatest when the baht was at 25 to the dollar. Maybe it's all a little more complicated than you realize.

 

Jeez, we got only 2 1/2 months before Harbor Mall closes! But I noticed quite a few shoppers in there the other day, motorbike show and all. Looks like by now we'd be seeing a couple of floors closed at least!

 

As usual in agreement...however, I do believe many of the resto outlets at Harbor are doing a dismal trade (at least during non-weekend/holiday periods). The big Japanese tuna resto at the rear of the 2nd floor has the entire menu at 50% off promotion (and it's still empty most of the time). One good thing, however, is at least the Japanese have discovered the Hawaiian place as I often see them in there.

 

I think this is more of a general issue of Pattaya being somewhat over-resteraunted (at least the usual chains) and the fact that Big C Extra, with many of the same or similar food outlets, is just down the road.

[guzzi850m2]

Yes agree about Harbor; I think many of the phone/pc shops struggles to survive. During weekdays not many customers around.

 

It will likely be pretty crowded here during the long weekend but if the Thai crowd buys anything but food is hard to say.

[mc991]

it does make me laugh when people complain about the traffic. every single city in the world has traffic, its what happens when you have a large amount of people living in a relatively small area. Yeah sure some have more than others, but if the traffic factors in a reason for not visiting pattaya, you are a moron.

 

And as for all the people talking garbage about pattaya.. anyone thats here knows things are down at the moment. why you feel the need to spend time writing about it in order to put others off is beyond me. if your not happy, dont come back. anyone with half a brain knows things go up and down in any market.

 

As for half finished condos and developers which have run off with peoples money.. which projects/developers in particular? All the ones the OP mentioned are currently under construction, hence being half finished

[JSixpack]

23 minutes ago, mc991 said:

it does make me laugh when people complain about the traffic. every single city in the world has traffic, its what happens when you have a large amount of people living in a relatively small area. Yeah sure some have more than others, but if the traffic factors in a reason for not visiting pattaya, you are a moron.

 

And as for all the people talking garbage about pattaya.. anyone thats here knows things are down at the moment. why you feel the need to spend time writing about it in order to put others off is beyond me. if your not happy, dont come back. anyone with half a brain knows things go up and down in any market.

 

As for half finished condos and developers which have run off with peoples money.. which projects/developers in particular? All the ones the OP mentioned are currently under construction, hence being half finished

 

Good first post. I predict a bright future for you here in the struggle against the forces of darkness.

[JSixpack]

3 hours ago, OMGImInPattaya said:

As usual in agreement...however, I do believe many of the resto outlets at Harbor are doing a dismal trade (at least during non-weekend/holiday periods). The big Japanese tuna resto at the rear of the 2nd floor has the entire menu at 50% off promotion (and it's still empty most of the time). One good thing, however, is at least the Japanese have discovered the Hawaiian place as I often see them in there.

 

I think this is more of a general issue of Pattaya being somewhat over-resteraunted (at least the usual chains) and the fact that Big C Extra, with many of the same or similar food outlets, is just down the road.

 

Went to that Japanese resto the other day (Oishi) and pigged out. I don't think Japanese will particularly appreciate it. Harbor is counting on the weekend, holiday, and seasonal trade--which will probably be enough to keep it afloat. If it weren't for such, most of the malls in the USA would close too. 'Twould be helpful if they'd finish all the facilities. Maybe they're looking to the high season. I think those are an important differentiation that may prove critical after Terminal 21 opens. 

 

Phone shops--'way too many of those in a city with a zillion shops already, plus the online trade. Even Central couldn't possibly support so many. They should get more into used phones as a niche like MBK Center in BKK. But the closing of some superfluous small phone shops/booths doesn't really say anything about the larger financial picture, though it'll be of course seized upon here.

[morrobay]

 

Pattaya Down Hill , Walk Way Disaster ? The top 3 photos about across from the Pattayalands -

South end just North of Walking st Early 2000's. Note the nice seating and flowers. 

Lower 3 photos today in same area of Trailer Trash  

[Seizetheday]

 

5 hours ago, mc991 said:

it does make me laugh when people complain about the traffic. every single city in the world has traffic, its what happens when you have a large amount of people living in a relatively small area. Yeah sure some have more than others, but if the traffic factors in a reason for not visiting pattaya, you are a moron.

 

And as for all the people talking garbage about pattaya.. anyone thats here knows things are down at the moment. why you feel the need to spend time writing about it in order to put others off is beyond me. if your not happy, dont come back. anyone with half a brain knows things go up and down in any market.

 

As for half finished condos and developers which have run off with peoples money.. which projects/developers in particular? All the ones the OP mentioned are currently under construction, hence being half finished

Obviously you haven't been up to the Big Budda in Pratumnak, or sat in your car for one hour 20 minutes getting from Pattaya Tai to Pattaya Nua.

[mc991]

5 hours ago, Seizetheday said:

 

Obviously you haven't been up to the Big Budda in Pratumnak, or sat in your car for one hour 20 minutes getting from Pattaya Tai to Pattaya Nua.

No but it did take me an hour and 10 minutes to get from thepprasit road to khao talo during rush hour last week. its hideous i know, but having lived in 2 other citys in the uk and australia, it can be just as bad there

[craigt3365]

7 hours ago, mc991 said:

No but it did take me an hour and 10 minutes to get from thepprasit road to khao talo during rush hour last week. its hideous i know, but having lived in 2 other citys in the uk and australia, it can be just as bad there

It was insane this weekend also.  Tried to get out last night, but gave up after seeing Sukhumvit was basically a parking lot outside our village.  Turned around and went home.

[craigt3365]

6 minutes ago, hyku1147 said:

Pattaya is not evolving. She is being reconstructed by morons who have inadequate knowledge of city planning - a fact obvious to the simplest of minds.

I lived in Las Vegas off and on since 1975.  It was at one time the fastest growing city in the US.  They were constantly building new roads and highways.  Unlike here....

 

Plus, when they were built, they were made for future growth.  Way to big for the needs at the time, but perfect for what the future required.  As you say, zero city planning here.

[LennyW]

55 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

I lived in Las Vegas off and on since 1975.  It was at one time the fastest growing city in the US.  They were constantly building new roads and highways.  Unlike here....

 

Plus, when they were built, they were made for future growth.  Way to big for the needs at the time, but perfect for what the future required.  As you say, zero city planning here.

It's just greed in the cities, leave no spot of land bare!!!, but if you go outside the cities nearly every road has has room for major expansion, just check the location of the electric poles, 331 good example.

[OMGImInPattaya]

21 hours ago, JSixpack said:

 

Went to that Japanese resto the other day (Oishi) and pigged out. I don't think Japanese will particularly appreciate it. Harbor is counting on the weekend, holiday, and seasonal trade--which will probably be enough to keep it afloat. If it weren't for such, most of the malls in the USA would close too. 'Twould be helpful if they'd finish all the facilities. Maybe they're looking to the high season. I think those are an important differentiation that may prove critical after Terminal 21 opens. 

 

Phone shops--'way too many of those in a city with a zillion shops already, plus the online trade. Even Central couldn't possibly support so many. They should get more into used phones as a niche like MBK Center in BKK. But the closing of some superfluous small phone shops/booths doesn't really say anything about the larger financial picture, though it'll be of course seized upon here.

That's not the place im referring...it's at the back (parking) end of the building.

 

I think the mall will do fine, however, the tenent mix will need some adjusting (which is up to the tenants).

[OMGImInPattaya]

4 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

It was insane this weekend also.  Tried to get out last night, but gave up after seeing Sukhumvit was basically a parking lot outside our village.  Turned around and went home.

It's a national holiday weekend...you choose to live in a beach resort city a couple hours from a national capitol city of 10M+ people...what do you expect?

[craigt3365]

56 minutes ago, OMGImInPattaya said:

It's a national holiday weekend...you choose to live in a beach resort city a couple hours from a national capitol city of 10M+ people...what do you expect?

When I came here 6 years ago, traffic was nothing like this.  They need to focus on infrastructure, like many national capitol cities of 10m+ people do in other countries.

[OMGImInPattaya]

58 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

When I came here 6 years ago, traffic was nothing like this.  They need to focus on infrastructure, like many national capitol cities of 10m+ people do in other countries.

Very few (none?) Third World countries have First World infrustructure...road and traffic congestion is part and parcel of living in these countries. ☺

[craigt3365]

13 minutes ago, OMGImInPattaya said:

Very few (none?) Third World countries have First World infrustructure...road and traffic congestion is part and parcel of living in these countries. ☺

Thailand is far from a third world country.  Plus, that's a definition that's not really relevant now.  Less developed would be more appropriate.  Either way, yes, there are countries similar to Thailand that have much more advanced infrastructure for transport.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World

[OMGImInPattaya]

1 minute ago, craigt3365 said:

Thailand is far from a third world country.  Plus, that's a definition that's not really relevant now.  Less developed would be more appropriate.  Either way, yes, there are countries similar to Thailand that have much more advanced infrastructure for transport.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World

GDP of about US$ 6K per person makes Thailand a poor, i.e., "Third World," country. Can you provide a list of countries with similar GDP figures that have great road transportation infructure. I'd be very curious to know.