May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[chiang mai]

One question is, who pays for these cuts and these incentives, if we have a budget deficit today whilst we're still trading fully with the EU, and once we leave our economy will shrink to some degree (perhaps to a lesser degree, perhaps temporarily, perhaps not), surely that just increases the deficit. So who will pay for the deficit and the underlying debt, it has to be the taxpayer through increased taxes or reduced services, which would you prefer!

[happy Joe]

9 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

One question is, who pays for these cuts and these incentives, if we have a budget deficit today whilst we're still trading fully with the EU, and once we leave our economy will shrink to some degree (perhaps to a lesser degree, perhaps temporarily, perhaps not), surely that just increases the deficit. So who will pay for the deficit and the underlying debt, it has to be the taxpayer through increased taxes or reduced services, which would you prefer!

 

Unfortunately the answer is known.

Your children will have to pay

[Khun Han]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

And here we have the truth. The Tories may be "forced" to slash corporation tax to 10% because of Brexit negotiations! Hello numpties? Still think May's good for you? This is even more cynical than I had supposed. I thought driving the pound down was enough, but no, the Tories will now go for massive corporation tax cuts. 

 

 

 

I certainly wouldn't be describing an unnamed source as the truth. 'Rumour' is the correct word.

[chiang mai]

A very good article follows which talks about the BOE, Mark Carney and Brexit, wroth reading all the way through before criticising Carney's performance - please note the highly relevant comments about looking at the world through Rees Mogg glasses and intellectual pygmies:

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/mark-carney-bank-of-england-jacob-rees-mogg-michael-gove-brexit-economy-a7376206.html

[Orac]

Another article from a highly regarded economist with good technical details on the circumstances the UK is facing along with predictions of further depreciation of sterling and falling standards of living.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/case-for-uk-import-substitution-by-robert-skidelsky-2016-10

[chiang mai]

19 minutes ago, Orac said:

Another article from a highly regarded economist with good technical details on the circumstances the UK is facing along with predictions of further depreciation of sterling and falling standards of living.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/case-for-uk-import-substitution-by-robert-skidelsky-2016-10

 

That's a very good read, it rather knocks on the head the idea that a devalued Pound is good for exports:

 

"But various studies have shown that the price elasticity of demand for UK exports is low. For example, a recent paper by Francesco Aiello, Graziella Bonanno, and Alessia Via of the European Trade Study Group finds that “the long-run level of exports appears to be unrelated to the real exchange rate for the UK.”

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

 

I certainly wouldn't be describing an unnamed source as the truth. 'Rumour' is the correct word.

 

When the Independent quotes an "unnamed source" I think it's rather more than a rumour. However, I think it all seems to fit quite nicely. My use of the word "truth" concerned Tory aims not the veracity of the article. But you know that.

[Khun Han]

8 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

When the Independent quotes an "unnamed source" I think it's rather more than a rumour. However, I think it all seems to fit quite nicely. My use of the word "truth" concerned Tory aims not the veracity of the article. But you know that.

 

No, I didn't know that. I assumed that when you stated "And here we have the truth" and then proceeded to speculate about an article you linked, you were discussing the article you linked (which is an article based on an unnamed source, so can't be classed as the truth because it's information can't be verified).

 

Note to self: work on your telepathy skills, or think 'oh no, here we go again.....'.

[chiang mai]

Microsoft hikes UK products by as much as 22%, as a result of the devalued Pound:

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-24/microsoft-hikes-u-k-prices-of-enterprise-products-amid-brexit

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Orac said:

Another article from a highly regarded economist with good technical details on the circumstances the UK is facing along with predictions of further depreciation of sterling and falling standards of living.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/case-for-uk-import-substitution-by-robert-skidelsky-2016-10

 

Yes, excellent. Clearly we need a UK manufactured smart phone. Made from wood presumably.

[Grouse]

9 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Microsoft hikes UK products by as much as 22%, as a result of the devalued Pound:

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-24/microsoft-hikes-u-k-prices-of-enterprise-products-amid-brexit

 

It's a rumour. It's just a flesh wound. Should buy British - oh, no, forget that....

[chiang mai]

Reality seems to be starting to bite and people beginning to better understand the implications of leaving. But those results also suggest strongly that there is polarization around the two camps rather than anything to do with economics, evidence the increase in the "lot better" group, I mean, where and what is the actual hard evidence for that:

 

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/europe

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

On 10/22/2016 at 6:56 PM, Grouse said:

 

 

Good attempt at irony, but that's not a bad idea! A thread that can be read by all, but with contributions by invitation only. I'm serious; I'm bored with poorly informed shallow debate. I'm not mentioning any names, but you're no fool, you know what I am referring to. I would also like conversations restored and not truncated to just 2 comments ?

Sounds good to me, that way there could be one thread where only the vehemently 'remain' crowd comment, and another where the vehemently 'leave' comment.

 

No chance of debate obviously - but it would stop the insults.

[Grouse]

5 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Sounds good to me, that way there could be one thread where only the vehemently 'remain' crowd comment, and another where the vehemently 'leave' comment.

 

No chance of debate obviously - but it would stop the insults.

 

Actually, just had a very rational discussion with JAG on another thread. So it is possible! May have. May be it's because colour is back?

[dick dasterdly]

On 10/23/2016 at 1:05 PM, Grouse said:

 

Here's a good quote from H L Mencken

 

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard"

 

Ridiculous quote.

 

If the 'common people' are given a referendum on bringing back capital punishment - does that mean they should all be hanged for voting that way?

 

I'm in an 'odd' position on brexit for various reasons, and agree that the 'average' person (come to that intelligent people) more often than not don't actually think things through, apart from in their own sphere of expertise.

 

An unfortunate truth IMO, as I know way too many intelligent people who only 'think' insofar as it supports their beliefs .

[CharlieK]

On 10/23/2016 at 2:20 PM, Grouse said:

 

That's rather irresponsible.

 

The EU is still growing albeit at only 1.8% per annum. Our exports of products are falling because we don't make enough of what people actually want. Our services exports have held up since 2000, largely financial services. Right now we face a situation where our financial services could be mortally damaged by withdrawal of passporting rights. Manufactured exports are likely to be hit by tariffs and non tariff barriers. 

 

But hey! Think of the sovereignty!

 

Did you see the video of that young chap at the start of this thread? Have a look! 

 

All red herrings so people like you can cling to the failed EU. If the banks move to the EU they will pay higher taxes higher wages. Or don't you think they would be there already rather than the City of London? Not to mention language barriers. 

 

The rather irresponsible are those in the EU who have failed the citizens of the EU. The contempt shown to the UK over brexit is an insult to the UK. It isn't so much about sovereignty, as it is about democracy.  

[Grouse]

34 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Reality seems to be starting to bite and people beginning to better understand the implications of leaving. But those results also suggest strongly that there is polarization around the two camps rather than anything to do with economics, evidence the increase in the "lot better" group, I mean, where and what is the actual hard evidence for that:

 

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/europe

 

 

 

That's a real eye opener!

[dick dasterdly]

On 10/23/2016 at 4:50 PM, Grouse said:

Another H L Mencken pearl:

 

"Democracy is the pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance"

V true, as proven by general elections.  But what precisely would you support instead?

[Grouse]

6 minutes ago, CharlieK said:

 

All red herrings so people like you can cling to the failed EU. If the banks move to the EU they will pay higher taxes higher wages. Or don't you think they would be there already rather than the City of London? Not to mention language barriers. 

 

The rather irresponsible are those in the EU who have failed the citizens of the EU. The contempt shown to the UK over brexit is an insult to the UK. It isn't so much about sovereignty, as it is about democracy.  

 

Well, Charlie, I've read your post several times and not really getting the point. American banks will go to NY. Frankfurt and Paris will take the rest. What is your point? Higher wages due to the collapsed pound?

 

The EU have shown US contempt? When? Where? Like Farage you mean? I must have missed it....

 

So, in aggregate, your point is that our self inflicted head wound is the EU's fault? Bonkers!

[CharlieK]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

 

Well, Charlie, I've read your post several times and not really getting the point. American banks will go to NY. Frankfurt and Paris will take the rest. What is your point? Higher wages due to the collapsed pound?

 

The EU have shown US contempt? When? Where? Like Farage you mean? I must have missed it....

 

So, in aggregate, your point is that our self inflicted head wound is the EU's fault? Bonkers!

 

I see you know a lot about banking? American banks will go to NY? lol

 

 They came from NY in the first place. Your reply is an attempt at obfuscation. 

[MJP]

1 minute ago, CharlieK said:

 

I see you know a lot about banking? American banks will go to NY? lol

 

 They came from NY in the first place. Your reply is an attempt at obfuscation. 

 

Charlie, why did they come from NY to London?

 

Might it be Brown/Balls' deregulation of the banking system allowing them to do all their dirty infinite bond repackaging causing the global crisis in the first place?

[dick dasterdly]

On 10/23/2016 at 5:09 PM, Grouse said:

 

The man died 60 years ago

 

However, parliamentary democracy trumps plebiscites for obvious reasons IMHO.

Why on earth would you think that politicians ( who are paid large salaries, have large expense accounts and unbelievable pensions), not to mention know they will receive even better paid consultancies/directorships/EMP positions etc., are more trustworthy than the electorate?

 

MPs were obviously convinced that the electorate would vote against brexit - and they were wrong.  I'd like to think that the brexit voters thought that the waste of EU money on salaries/overpaid admin staff to come up with new ridiculous rules etc.  were a large influencing vote, along with uncontrolled immigration for those with no skills that could only reduce  wages for those at the bottom of the heap.

I think I'm right when it comes to uncontrolled immigration as few care very much about foreigners 'at the top' coming in to replace their equivalents in the UK.

 

Too many of the electorate were badly affected by uncontrolled immigration and their MPs proved themselves 'blind' - and that they had no idea that their constituents had enough personal knowledge to finally ignore their politicians advice/directives.

 

In short, a large percentage of the populace finally decided that the issue was too important to trust their MPs pronouncements = which went against everything they had seen happening in their own lives.

[dick dasterdly]

18 hours ago, Xircal said:

 

I don't think it's the actual number of migrants, but rather that they're foreigners as opposed to Englishmen (an women). According to this BBC report, local residents object to living next door to migrants from another country even though the city has prospered from the influx: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36258541

 

I think that's called xenophobia isn't it?

Oh for pity's sake - are you really that blind?

 

Few give a toss about the top foreign business men taking over top British men's jobs.  But they do care about the lowest paid jobs being taken over by unskilled foreigners who are happy to work for less (frequently less than the minimum wage) - thus stagnating wages for those at the bottom which then moves on up the scale.

 

But of course this only increases salaries for those at the top as the companies salary bill is reduced as a result - and therefore deserving of large bonuses/salary increases for the privileged few.

[chiang mai]

25 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Oh for pity's sake - are you really that blind?

 

Few give a toss about the top foreign business men taking over top British men's jobs.  But they do care about the lowest paid jobs being taken over by unskilled foreigners who are happy to work for less (frequently less than the minimum wage) - thus stagnating wages for those at the bottom which then moves on up the scale.

 

But of course this only increases salaries for those at the top as the companies salary bill is reduced as a result - and therefore deserving of large bonuses/salary increases for the privileged few.

 

 

Except people only care when there is no other alternative but to take one of the lowest paid jobs, the preferred route of benefits having been closed out - sadly, immigrants were doing those unskilled jobs long before benefit claimants were forced back to work and now they are in danger of being kicked out - that's not a great picture to be honest!

 

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

4 hours ago, Orac said:

Another article from a highly regarded economist with good technical details on the circumstances the UK is facing along with predictions of further depreciation of sterling and falling standards of living.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/case-for-uk-import-substitution-by-robert-skidelsky-2016-10

Excellent.  What was his opinion (at the time) as to what would immediately happen if the UK voted brexit?

[dick dasterdly]

9 hours ago, Grouse said:

And here we have the truth. The Tories may be "forced" to slash corporation tax to 10% because of Brexit negotiations! Hello numpties? Still think May's good for you? This is even more cynical than I had supposed. I thought driving the pound down was enough, but no, the Tories will now go for massive corporation tax cuts. 

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-business-corporation-tax-eu-referendum-article-50-a7376816.html%3famp?client=safari

 

6 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

 

I certainly wouldn't be describing an unnamed source as the truth. 'Rumour' is the correct word.

 

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

When the Independent quotes an "unnamed source" I think it's rather more than a rumour. However, I think it all seems to fit quite nicely. My use of the word "truth" concerned Tory aims not the veracity of the article. But you know that.

Then you really shouldn't have started the original post with " And here we have the truth" and then continued with an opinion from an expert you respect.

 

There's an enormous difference between "truth" and 'opinion I respect.

[dick dasterdly]

3 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Microsoft hikes UK products by as much as 22%, as a result of the devalued Pound:

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-24/microsoft-hikes-u-k-prices-of-enterprise-products-amid-brexit

Yes, Microsoft have made it clear that increasing their profits (at any cost to the consumer) has never been a priority.

 

Edit - much as I mostly appreciate informed debate/argument - anyone using Microsoft hiking UK prices by as much as 22% can only result in confirmation of how some posters are incapable of thinking things through and rely on ANYTHING that in their biased view they think supports their cause .

[Orac]

Excellent.  What was his opinion (at the time) as to what would immediately happen if the UK voted brexit?

Can't remember him making any specific predictions on brexit, however, his position was very much that the failure of the eurozone would lead to a split in the EU but the UK should remain in.

"It has always been part of Britain’s role to act as a bridge between different worlds. It can play this role in the two Europes of the future, but only by not cutting itself off from the one Europe that currently exists."

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/british-bridge-for-divided-europe-by-robert-skidelsky-2016-04

[dick dasterdly]

28 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

Can't remember him making any specific predictions on brexit, however, his position was very much that the failure of the eurozone would lead to a split in the EU but the UK should remain in.

"It has always been part of Britain’s role to act as a bridge between different worlds. It can play this role in the two Europes of the future, but only by not cutting itself off from the one Europe that currently exists."

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/british-bridge-for-divided-europe-by-robert-skidelsky-2016-04

 

 Unusual that he didn't provide his own opinion as to the result of a brexit vote -before the referendum. - But if he didn't, then kudos to him for realising that he could only offer opinions - as a brexit vote could only leave uncertainty.

 

As for Britain "providing a bridge between different worlds" - I strongly disagree.

 

Britain hasn't impacted the EU much at all, apart from being a nuisance  having rejecting the Euro/getting concessions on maximum working hours/getting concessions on its contribution to the EU etc. etc.  How has any of this provided a "bridge" between the EU and UK?

[chiang mai]

4 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Yes, Microsoft have made it clear that increasing their profits (at any cost to the consumer) has never been a priority.

 

Edit - much as I mostly appreciate informed debate/argument - anyone using Microsoft hiking UK prices by as much as 22% can only result in confirmation of how some posters are incapable of thinking things through and rely on ANYTHING that in their biased view they think supports their cause .

 

Let me more explicit:

 

"Microsoft Corp. will increase the price of its enterprise software and cloud offerings in the U.K. by as much as 22 percent to adjust to the falling pound in the aftermath of Britain’s vote to leave the European Union".

 

The price adjustment comes as a direct result of the fall in the value of Sterling which was a direct result of the Referendum.

 

If you have an argument to make regarding the article, make it, don't just snipe - think that through!