University teaching shows why Thais' command of English is so abysmal!

[pookiki]

36 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said:

On reflection of this.... especially is terms of semantics....."He  speaks  English  well ( but with a limited  capacity in  vocabulary) as opposed to "He speaks  good English " ( with a great capacity in vocabulary).

In view of  semantic differentiation I personally  would  opt for the  latter because I have come  across  many who have well practiced social phrases and others  who labouriously  but  accurately can converse in "good' English.

Are you saying that the parenthetical remarks would be understood in distinguishing the two phrases if not stated?   I think that's a big s t r e t c h!  I'd rather go by the reasonable standard of: 'Say what you mean and mean what you say!'

[Dumbastheycome]

51 minutes ago, pookiki said:

Are you saying that the parenthetical remarks would be understood in distinguishing the two phrases if not stated?   I think that's a big s t r e t c h!  I'd rather go by the reasonable standard of: 'Say what you mean and mean what you say!'

The  parentheticals are included  in explanation of my personal differentiation of preference in that which  could be considered an acceptable  correct phrase being taught to a learner of  English rather than than the  vagueries of semantics.

Are  you  well? That is  good!

Scholarly debate on semantics should  surely be in the  domain of  serious academic realms  rather than  providing  accurate yet less confusing communicative  language  skills to students of a second  language.

If  not then  why  not include  Shakespearean  alternatives?

It is  not  my wish or  my will to  abjure my conviction  nor be it that I desire the same of  yourself.

[Shawn0000]

5 hours ago, johng said:

Fings have got read into fings I never said till me mouth becomes me head which ain't not all that clever.
And it's not not saying 
One thing nor another
Neither, either is it anything 
I haven't said, whatever
And it ain't not proving 
That me mind ain't moving
And I answer to the name 
Of Trever, however

Knock me down with a feather
Clever Trevor
 

 

Widebrows wonder whether Clever Trevor's clever
Either have they got, nor neither haven't not
Got no right to make a clot out of Trevor

 

Brilliant post, thanks...

[Loeilad]

2 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Widebrows wonder whether Clever Trevor's clever
Either have they got, nor neither haven't not
Got no right to make a clot out of Trevor

 

Brilliant post, thanks...

Ian Dury was a brilliant wordsmith and had an outstanding mastery of the English language - it is people like him who show what the language is capable of doing.

[Rhys]

so be it..

 

[William C F Pierce]

On 05/12/2016 at 7:40 PM, notmyself said:

.

 

On 06/12/2016 at 11:21 PM, Loeilad said:

"most basic rules of English are continuously ignored."

 

I always think that people who make comments like that don't really understand English

Despite what you think, you should try reading the daily UK news papers. There is not one editor that does their job of editing mistakes or making sure the articles are up to standard. As children grow up they read their parents newspapers and start to learn the same mistakes. International reports continuously prove the UK is declining in basic education compared to other countries. Even Thai English language newspapers frequently commit the same mistakes as English newspapers. The number of times the word "and" is used to wrongly start a paragraph in a newspaper is indefensible. The word has a meaning of in addition to one or more items before it in  the same sentence followed by the final item, with no comma before the word "and". SUCH AS:  Red, green, blue, puple, black and white were the colours of the exhibition painting. I suggest you give a reason to qualify the statement you have made.

[dslocum]

This is one of the best threads in some time!

 

At risk of "trollism", let me add some humor to the discussion:

Wierd Al - "Word Crimes"

Please pardon my odd sense of humor!

[Loeilad]

6 hours ago, William C F Pierce said:

 

Despite what you think, you should try reading the daily UK news papers. There is not one editor that does their job of editing mistakes or making sure the articles are up to standard. As children grow up they read their parents newspapers and start to learn the same mistakes. International reports continuously prove the UK is declining in basic education compared to other countries. Even Thai English language newspapers frequently commit the same mistakes as English newspapers. The number of times the word "and" is used to wrongly start a paragraph in a newspaper is indefensible. The word has a meaning of in addition to one or more items before it in  the same sentence followed by the final item, with no comma before the word "and". SUCH AS:  Red, green, blue, puple, black and white were the colours of the exhibition painting. I suggest you give a reason to qualify the statement you have made.

I take it you're not a fan of James Joyce, then?

[Loeilad]

6 hours ago, William C F Pierce said:

 

Despite what you think, you should try reading the daily UK news papers. There is not one editor that does their job of editing mistakes or making sure the articles are up to standard. As children grow up they read their parents newspapers and start to learn the same mistakes. International reports continuously prove the UK is declining in basic education compared to other countries. Even Thai English language newspapers frequently commit the same mistakes as English newspapers. The number of times the word "and" is used to wrongly start a paragraph in a newspaper is indefensible. The word has a meaning of in addition to one or more items before it in  the same sentence followed by the final item, with no comma before the word "and". SUCH AS:  Red, green, blue, puple, black and white were the colours of the exhibition painting. I suggest you give a reason to qualify the statement you have made.

Some people need to forget what they were erroneously taught at prep school and re-assess their  perception of their own knowledge of English before criticising the language.

 

And you could look at this....

" perfectly respectable writers employ this disputed usage, and have done since Anglo-Saxon times."

 

"You could also refer to the fact that you’re in very good company (examples can be found in the work of writers such as Susan Sontag, Vladimir Nabokov, Kingsley Amis, P.G. Wodehouse, and Albert Einstein) and that highly respected grammar and usage guides (such as Fowler and Garner) all agree that it’s a perfectly acceptable practice."

 

So…can we start a sentence with and?

[EnlightenedAtheist]

On 12/7/2016 at 8:57 PM, jpinx said:

Good grief!!!  What a pompous ass.  Teachers, as I have said already, are there to give the students communications skills based on English.  Anything more than that would be up to the individual students.

 

You have a quote (in green) that you display at the bottom of each post: 

 

Yet, you blame anyone (or is it just me?) for writing in a way that you find too "pompous". It seems that "we" cannot win. Would you like me to write like an "idiot" so you can win the argument? LOL Btw, you have not acknowledged or addressed in anyway what I wrote. Do you know about active listening? This is the art of rephrasing (dare I say agree) in some manner and to some degree with what was stated and then expressing one's opinion. It is called validation and it can win you a lot of friends. You should try it on some of your friends. You might be surprised that they might be so idiotic after all. Surely, a person with my credentials (as stated) and my rhetoric should not be so quickly dismissed with such a blanket of a statement that does not address the content of my post. I am actually surprised this was not flagged, but I am glad I can help you become a better person, if that is possible.

 

I would like to agree with you in some manner and to some degree but I am not too sure what you mean by "Communications skills [sic]"? Could you please elaborate?

 

What is the anything more that you are urging students to do? 

 

Thank you.

[pookiki]

12 hours ago, Dumbastheycome said:

The  parentheticals are included  in explanation of my personal differentiation of preference in that which  could be considered an acceptable  correct phrase being taught to a learner of  English rather than than the  vagueries of semantics.

Are  you  well? That is  good!

Scholarly debate on semantics should  surely be in the  domain of  serious academic realms  rather than  providing  accurate yet less confusing communicative  language  skills to students of a second  language.

If  not then  why  not include  Shakespearean  alternatives?

It is  not  my wish or  my will to  abjure my conviction  nor be it that I desire the same of  yourself.

I'm fine, thank you.  All is well.  I spent a good chuck of my life in the field of labor relations.  Writing with clarity of thought is a necessity but difficult nonetheless.  It is amazing how much ambiguity can creep into your own native language. You appear to have a very scholarly background. Thanks for your reply.

[Loeilad]

One of the great things about English, and something that makes it very difficult for foreigners to fully master is the nuance, subtlety and shades of meaning and implication that words carry.

2 words that come to mind

These words can often backfire in the hands of the "bootless and unhorsed"

- e.g. ......

"common" when used to deride another person - actually reflects more on the person using the word than any insult or derogation intended by that speaker.

"pompous" - used often on TV in place of argument, usually by someone who finds themself intellectually out of their depth

[EnlightenedAtheist]

 

On 12/7/2016 at 6:56 AM, Estrada said:

Based on your poor grammar and misspelling of the subject word "Abysmal" as "Absymal", I suggest you find a better English language school to teach you English. I hope that you are not an English Language Teacher as "If the teachers haven't mastered the language, then how are they expected to teach their students?!?!"

 

Wow! While it is true that the person you are commenting about (see below) makes one letter reversal and a few grammatical/syntactic errors, if one were to analyze the writing more fairly, one would find that there are just a few errors. Overall, 95%+ is well written. I am teacher with a linguistics degree and years of experience in the field. I know. This is a forum where people voice their opinion for no other reason to express their opinion. We are not writing dissertations. We are not paid to do this either. But, maybe, this is about scoring points, establishing the pecking order based on accuracy of writing conventions. Is it? Can we not agree then that excellent writing is not just about form, but it is also about content, which you did not even acknowledge, address in any way. In that sense, you are making an error in communication and, dare I say, etiquette.

 

Btw, whatever is written in English violates the most basic alphabetical principle (or phonemic principle) and many of the most basic rules of the English spelling system (am/arE, to name one out of thousands). So, we could say that virtually all that is written is badly written, in that sense. LOL You might be interested in that post: 

 

 On 12/6/2016 at 11:44 AM, djayz said:

Here we go again... if I had ฿ 1 for every time people pointed out the absymal level of English here, I'd be a millionaire by now! 

If the teachers haven't mastered the language, then how are they expected to teach their students?!?!

 

Teachers and professors who have their positions partially thanks to family connections and are never observed by neutral peers with the aim of improving standards. They have no motivation to improve themselves as teachers nor to help their students improve their (students) lot in life. The language center I work at observes all teachers once and sometimes twice a year and conducts regular student feedback surveys. All with the aim of 1) keeping teaching standards up and 2) to check student i.e. customer satisfaction with the teaching staff. 

This could easily be done at the public schools and universities. 

[Loeilad]

On 12/7/2016 at 6:56 AM, Estrada said:

Based on your poor grammar and misspelling of the subject word "Abysmal" as "Absymal", I suggest you find a better English language school to teach you English. I hope that you are not an English Language Teacher as "If the teachers haven't mastered the language, then how are they expected to teach their students?!?!"

It's difficult to respect the opinion of someone who can't tell the difference between and typo and a spelling mistake.

[EnlightenedAtheist]

I think that there are many factors at work explaining how some Thais struggle to master English.

 

1. It is not their first language.
2. The fear of losing face (especially when speaking) is making learning almost impossible. Practice makes perfect and if you don't practice, learning is not likely to occur much. (My wife knows a friend who is a Thai English teacher. I have met her a few times in the past. She hardly speaks English when we are in mixed company. In fact, last time, when on the spur of a moment, my wife invited her to eat for her BD, the second sentence was: "So, have you learned Thai yet?" The rest of the dinner took place in Thai, unless I interjected with a few questions in English, to wish she replied in English, but very succinctly.)
3. A few posters mentioned that there is this deep-seeded notion that foreigners are idiots. Some of us tend to act in a manner that Thai consider dishonorable (raising our voice,...). Whether it is a clever way to save face or not, I think many Thais believe the propaganda, especially the ones who don't speak English. It is true that --on the face of it-- people who do not speak any language might be easily perceived as being stupid, as it might be self-evident to THEM that we cannot even speak. We also look silly when we do not seem to get things that are so easy for them to get. Most of them might not have had to learn another language as well, which reduces understanding and empathy.
4. As others have pointed, subtitling movies is not the norm in Thailand. This would help, although that does create some problems. See next point.
5. English has one of the worst phonemic systems of all western languages as explained here, which has the pernicious effect of making spelling excruciatingly difficult to master/attain if one focused too much (or at all) on speaking mastery or of making pronouncing excruciatingly difficult to master/attain if one focuses too much (or at all) on writing mastery (spelling and grammar). As long as Commonwealth speakers do not come to terms with the obvious (see comment with data to prove the point), do not be surprise that native-speakers or not will struggle to learn English. It is hard to fault Thais (anyone really) when no one (especially the ones who should) is taking responsibility for fixing the underlying problem. 
6. A few posters made the comment that the Filipinos (to name one group) seem to be quite proficient in English (as a nation). I have not been there, but I know quite a bit of Filipinos in my country (an English country) and it is true that there fluency (accent and use of English) was better than the average Thais. I am comparing apples and oranges, if I compare local Thais with Filipinos living overseas. I wonder why that is. I could hypothesize that (and forgive me if this was replied to and I missed it) there is a rather large diaspora of Filipinos in English speaking countries. I suspect they go it and others get sponsored. I wonder if not most of the Filipino English-teachers haven't got their training (as it were) in English-speaking countries. Is it that the Filipinos do not have that culture of losing face or not to the degree that the Thais have it? Is the educational system different? Are they spending more time on speaking/listening activities in classes? Are the Filipinos seeing the advantages of learning English (so that they can make good money overseas)? (Not many Thais have that chance, unless you come from a wealthy family, it seems, even, in some countries, you have a house under your name, unless you are willing to part with your kids, which is often one of the conditions for getting a visa.) Tagalog has integrated 1500 or so English words in its 30,000 words (root words) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_loanwords_in_Tagalog#Spanish). There are 5000 words that are of Spanish origin. When one realizes that about 50% of English words are Latin/French, it might given the Filipinos an edge that the Thai don't have. In other words, comparing is not easy.
7. There might be too much teaching of the writing code by Thai teachers in regular public schools.
8. There might be a general reluctance or a clever strategy from the establishment to keep the system as is, giving the Thais who can learn English abroad or who can go to international schools an incredible advantage.
9. There are many countries where many speakers struggle with English pronunciation. Have you ever heard a French-speaker speaking English lately? An Italian? Spanish? Still, cross the border to Belgium and most Belgians, IF they are from Brussels and the north, have a much better English accent. That is not because there are smarter. We all know that speakers of Germanic languages like Dutch and German have excellent command of English as well. It is true that most of the Dutch teachers in Belgium would be quite good at teaching English, with the accent to match.

Did I miss any points mentioned? I will update or make another post if need be.

 

[jpinx]

2 hours ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

You have a quote (in green) that you display at the bottom of each post: 

 

Yet, you blame anyone (or is it just me?) for writing in a way that you find too "pompous". It seems that "we" cannot win. Would you like me to write like an "idiot" so you can win the argument? LOL Btw, you have not acknowledged or addressed in anyway what I wrote. Do you know about active listening? This is the art of rephrasing (dare I say agree) in some manner and to some degree with what was stated and then expressing one's opinion. It is called validation and it can win you a lot of friends. You should try it on some of your friends. You might be surprised that they might be so idiotic after all. Surely, a person with my credentials (as stated) and my rhetoric should not be so quickly dismissed with such a blanket of a statement that does not address the content of my post. I am actually surprised this was not flagged, but I am glad I can help you become a better person, if that is possible.

 

I would like to agree with you in some manner and to some degree but I am not too sure what you mean by "Communications skills [sic]"? Could you please elaborate?

 

What is the anything more that you are urging students to do? 

 

Thank you.

There's plenty of pompous idiots   I'll take the time to address your points,,,,

This thread is not an Argument, there are no winners or losers.  For you to start with an adversarial approach indicates a defense of something.

Terminology changes nothing. "active listening" is otherwise more commonly known as "paying attention" and all that implies.

Rephrasing is not an artform - it is merely a regurgitation of someone else's view after it's been process in another brain.

Validation is only needed if you are unsure of your ground.

My friends include some priceless idiots, but they are still my good friends.

Credentials mean diddly-squat. Flaunting them indicates a serious inferiority complex.

Rhetoric should be ignored -  it's just the ramblings of someone who no-one will listen to.

What I, or anyone else, dismisses is a personal choice.

Flags are for Buckingham palace.

You can not "help" anyone become anything -- better or worse.  We are all in control of our own destinies.

I don't want you to agree with me.  You have your opinions and I have mine.

If you don't know what communication skills are, then I suggest that discussing language with you is futile.

If you do not understand the concept of a student wanting to go beyond the bounds of the course offered, then I can only assume that you are unfamiliar with self-motivation.

No need to thank me for anything - I did not give you, personally, anything.  I merely replied to a post on a forum because I have ten minutes spare.

 

 

[Artisi]

14 hours ago, William C F Pierce said:

 

Despite what you think, you should try reading the daily UK news papers. There is not one editor that does their job of editing mistakes or making sure the articles are up to standard. As children grow up they read their parents newspapers and start to learn the same mistakes. International reports continuously prove the UK is declining in basic education compared to other countries. Even Thai English language newspapers frequently commit the same mistakes as English newspapers. The number of times the word "and" is used to wrongly start a paragraph in a newspaper is indefensible. The word has a meaning of in addition to one or more items before it in  the same sentence followed by the final item, with no comma before the word "and". SUCH AS:  Red, green, blue, puple, black and white were the colours of the exhibition painting. I suggest you give a reason to qualify the statement you have made.

Not forgetting the use of the Oxford comma -- black, and white --

[tezzainthailand]

On 12/6/2016 at 0:15 PM, Charlie1 said:

I noticed that many Thais try to speak a not understandable "American English". They should be taught only by UK native speakers - the teachers, I mean.

And Australians.

[JAG]

Despite what you think, you should try reading the daily UK news papers. There is not one editor that does their job of editing mistakes or making sure the articles are up to standard. As children grow up they read their parents newspapers and start to learn the same mistakes. International reports continuously prove the UK is declining in basic education compared to other countries. Even Thai English language newspapers frequently commit the same mistakes as English newspapers. The number of times the word "and" is used to wrongly start a paragraph in a newspaper is indefensible. The word has a meaning of in addition to one or more items before it in  the same sentence followed by the final item, with no comma before the word "and". SUCH AS:  Red, green, blue, puple, black and white were the colours of the exhibition painting. I suggest you give a reason to qualify the statement you have made.

Ah yes, the UK newspapers.

The Daily Mirror is read by people who think they run the country.

The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country.

The Times is read by people who actually do run the country.

The Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the country.

The Financial Times is read by people who own the country.

The Morning Star is read by people who think the country ought to be run by another country.

The Daily Telegraph is read by people who think it is run by another country.

The Sun readers don't care who runs the country, as long as she's got big tits.

Not my original work I hasten to add, but brings a chuckle...

[Loeilad]

3 hours ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

I think that there are many factors at work explaining how some Thais struggle to master English.

 

1. It is not their first language.
2. The fear of losing face (especially when speaking) is making learning almost impossible. Practice makes perfect and if you don't practice, learning is not likely to occur much. (My wife knows a friend who is a Thai English teacher. I have met her a few times in the past. She hardly speaks English when we are in mixed company. In fact, last time, when on the spur of a moment, my wife invited her to eat for her BD, the second sentence was: "So, have you learned Thai yet?" The rest of the dinner took place in Thai, unless I interjected with a few questions in English, to wish she replied in English, but very succinctly.)
3. A few posters mentioned that there is this deep-seeded notion that foreigners are idiots. Some of us tend to act in a manner that Thai consider dishonorable (raising our voice,...). Whether it is a clever way to save face or not, I think many Thais believe the propaganda, especially the ones who don't speak English. It is true that --on the face of it-- people who do not speak any language might be easily perceived as being stupid, as it might be self-evident to THEM that we cannot even speak. We also look silly when we do not seem to get things that are so easy for them to get. Most of them might not have had to learn another language as well, which reduces understanding and empathy.
4. As others have pointed, subtitling movies is not the norm in Thailand. This would help, although that does create some problems. See next point.
5. English has one of the worst phonemic systems of all western languages as explained here, which has the pernicious effect of making spelling excruciatingly difficult to master/attain if one focused too much (or at all) on speaking mastery or of making pronouncing excruciatingly difficult to master/attain if one focuses too much (or at all) on writing mastery (spelling and grammar). As long as Commonwealth speakers do not come to terms with the obvious (see comment with data to prove the point), do not be surprise that native-speakers or not will struggle to learn English. It is hard to fault Thais (anyone really) when no one (especially the ones who should) is taking responsibility for fixing the underlying problem. 
6. A few posters made the comment that the Filipinos (to name one group) seem to be quite proficient in English (as a nation). I have not been there, but I know quite a bit of Filipinos in my country (an English country) and it is true that there fluency (accent and use of English) was better than the average Thais. I am comparing apples and oranges, if I compare local Thais with Filipinos living overseas. I wonder why that is. I could hypothesize that (and forgive me if this was replied to and I missed it) there is a rather large diaspora of Filipinos in English speaking countries. I suspect they go it and others get sponsored. I wonder if not most of the Filipino English-teachers haven't got their training (as it were) in English-speaking countries. Is it that the Filipinos do not have that culture of losing face or not to the degree that the Thais have it? Is the educational system different? Are they spending more time on speaking/listening activities in classes? Are the Filipinos seeing the advantages of learning English (so that they can make good money overseas)? (Not many Thais have that chance, unless you come from a wealthy family, it seems, even, in some countries, you have a house under your name, unless you are willing to part with your kids, which is often one of the conditions for getting a visa.) Tagalog has integrated 1500 or so English words in its 30,000 words (root words) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_loanwords_in_Tagalog#Spanish). There are 5000 words that are of Spanish origin. When one realizes that about 50% of English words are Latin/French, it might given the Filipinos an edge that the Thai don't have. In other words, comparing is not easy.
7. There might be too much teaching of the writing code by Thai teachers in regular public schools.
8. There might be a general reluctance or a clever strategy from the establishment to keep the system as is, giving the Thais who can learn English abroad or who can go to international schools an incredible advantage.
9. There are many countries where many speakers struggle with English pronunciation. Have you ever heard a French-speaker speaking English lately? An Italian? Spanish? Still, cross the border to Belgium and most Belgians, IF they are from Brussels and the north, have a much better English accent. That is not because there are smarter. We all know that speakers of Germanic languages like Dutch and German have excellent command of English as well. It is true that most of the Dutch teachers in Belgium would be quite good at teaching English, with the accent to match.

Did I miss any points mentioned? I will update or make another post if need be.

 

Re 4 - I was talking to a Thai university student a few years back about visiting America...I pointed out that whereas in Thailand you can meet a lot of people who understand a bit of English, virtually no-one in the USA would speak Thai.  this seemed to surprise him as so many Americans in the movies spoke such good Thai.

 

^ - Philippines - as Philippines was both a Spanish and American colony there is a centuries long tradition of learning western Language and Tagalog has western phrases in it.

 

many Asians find learning Thai much easier than westerners because there are commonalities....its like a westerner learning Spanish, which is reputedly the easiest language in world to learn.....however Spanish speakers seem to have a lot of trouble learning English in Europe.

[EnlightenedAtheist]

On 12/7/2016 at 8:57 PM, jpinx said:

There's plenty of pompous idiots  I'll take the time to address your points,,,,

1. This thread is not an Argument, there are no winners or losers.  For you to start with an adversarial approach indicates a defense of something.
2. Terminology changes nothing. "active listening" is otherwise more commonly known as "paying attention" and all that implies.
3. Rephrasing is not an artform - it is merely a regurgitation of someone else's view after it's been process in another brain.
4. Validation is only needed if you are unsure of your ground.
5. My friends include some priceless idiots, but they are still my good friends.
6. Credentials mean diddly-squat. Flaunting them indicates a serious inferiority complex.
7. Rhetoric should be ignored -  it's just the ramblings of someone who no-one will listen to.
8. What I, or anyone else, dismisses is a personal choice.
9. Flags are for Buckingham palace.
10. You can not "help" anyone become anything -- better or worse.  We are all in control of our own destinies.
11. I don't want you to agree with me.  You have your opinions and I have mine.
12. If you don't know what communication skills are, then I suggest that discussing language with you is futile.
13. If you do not understand the concept of a student wanting to go beyond the bounds of the course offered, then I can only assume that you are unfamiliar with self-motivation.
14. No need to thank me for anything - I did not give you, personally, anything.  I merely replied to a post on a forum because I have ten minutes spare.

 

I see you have been an English teacher in many countries. What are your credentials other than your ability to compose a few sentences in English with a  native accent? I know! I know! Teacher training is worthless as engineering schools, but it is a legitimate question. Sorry! Stupid question!

 

I think we can agree that there are just as many --probably more-- idiots who think they aren't, but to win an argument claims that everyone else is. You can never judge a book by its cover though, but I will open the one that has no spelling or grammatical first! I will open the one that is titled "U ar an ignerames" first. Since you are an expert, why would that be so? Don't answer that question if you do not know the answer to it.

 

I will address the topics that are germane to this threat. I have stated my position. The rest shows how little you are willing to learn. I am trained teacher and teaching a language is more than knowing a language. It is teaching about communication skills, but I am afraid you don;t know all of the skills.

 

Not surprisingly you ignore answering questions and topics that you don;t like or don;t think are germane to the issue.  Here are some questions you left unanswered. "Are you suggesting teachers, students use ONLY images to teach and learn? No reading? Are you suggesting that teachers and students only speak and listen in classes? "

 

You state that the job of the teacher is to give communication skills, which seem to have a limited knowledge of, as shown, and since you decided to throw it back at me, stating that I should know. Well! I already have shown that I know about communication skills and in spades. However, I wanted to give you a chance to elaborate, as this pertained to teaching. I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt or a chance to explain what seems to be a very simplistic view of what the work of a teacher implies. A teacher needs to do more than to give skills. A teacher needs to give a chance for students to practice those skills in meaningful activities. Barring that, students will not learn much. Then, of course, we can ask students to practice those skills at home, as you state. You seem to favor a communicative approach, which you are forcing me to assume to be just speaking and listening, as you brushed to the side the importance of writing/spelling  and reading/spelling when I demonstrated the insane spelling irregularities of the English spelling system diagram:

 

 

You do mention that students' understanding of phonetics is abysmal as well. I have not taught in Thailand, but my wife is Thai. I know the problem from that side. Again, I am left to assume that you mean their ability to utter some phonemes in English or articulate words properly. Is this so? If this is so, what methods do teachers use to try to teach those phonemes? And, if those methods are not working, why or why not? At what age are Thais receiving English lessons and by how much in public schools (not international)?

 

 

 

 

[jpinx]

16 minutes ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

I see you have been an English teacher in many countries. What are your credentials other than your ability to compose a few sentences in English with a  native accent? I know! I know! Teacher training is worthless as engineering schools, but it is a legitimate question. Sorry! Stupid question!

 

I think we can agree that there are just as many --probably more-- idiots who think they aren't, but to win an argument claims that everyone else is. You can never judge a book by its cover though, but I will open the one that has no spelling or grammatical first! I will open the one that is titled "U ar an ignerames" first. Since you are an expert, why would that be so? Don't answer that question if you do not know the answer to it.

 

I will address the topics that are germane to this threat. I have stated my position. The rest shows how little you are willing to learn. I am trained teacher and teaching a language is more than knowing a language. It is teaching about communication skills, but I am afraid you don;t know all of the skills.

 

Not surprisingly you ignore answering questions and topics that you don;t like or don;t think are germane to the issue.  Here are some questions you left unanswered. "Are you suggesting teachers, students use ONLY images to teach and learn? No reading? Are you suggesting that teachers and students only speak and listen in classes? "

 

You state that the job of the teacher is to give communication skills, which seem to have a limited knowledge of, as shown, and since you decided to throw it back at me, stating that I should know. Well! I already have shown that I know about communication skills and in spades. However, I wanted to give you a chance to elaborate, as this pertained to teaching. I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt or a chance to explain what seems to be a very simplistic view of what the work of a teacher implies. A teacher needs to do more than to give skills. A teacher needs to give a chance for students to practice those skills in meaningful activities. Barring that, students will not learn much. Then, of course, we can ask students to practice those skills at home, as you state. You seem to favor a communicative approach, which you are forcing me to assume to be just speaking and listening, as you brushed to the side the importance of writing/spelling  and reading/spelling when I demonstrated the insane spelling irregularities of the English spelling system diagram:

 

 

You do mention that students' understanding of phonetics is abysmal as well. I have not taught in Thailand, but my wife is Thai. I know the problem from that side. Again, I am left to assume that you mean their ability to utter some phonemes in English or articulate words properly. Is this so? If this is so, what methods do teachers use to try to teach those phonemes? And, if those methods are not working, why or why not? At what age are Thais receiving English lessons and by how much in public schools (not international)?

 

 

 

 

Dude -- you need to get out more

[EnlightenedAtheist]

Edit: You state that the job of the teacher is to give communication skills, which you seem to have a limited knowledge of, as shown, ...

 

[EnlightenedAtheist]

30 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Dude -- you need to get out more

 

Actually, I was not writing to you, but writing to all of the teachers with no credentials who used to get hired (still are?) by falsifying degrees. I know for a fact that this happened once and I suspect it happens a lot. Wasn't there an official "crack-down" recently? Was it effective?

[jpinx]

1 minute ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

Actually, I was not writing to you, but writing to all of the teachers with no credentials who used to get hired (still are?) by falsifying degrees. I know for a fact that this happened once and I suspect it happens a lot. Wasn't there an official "crack-down" recently? Was it effective?

If you're not writing to me -- don't use the "Quote" button.

[EnlightenedAtheist]

Thanks, Loeilad! I added part of your comment in one: #4. That is very funny! 

 

Spanish is easy to learn to read and speak, but the conjugations are a pain to learn. I wish it were like English (minus the irregular past tense verbs and the prepositional verbs).

 

I added a few more points as well.

 

What we have learned so far. Did I miss any?

 

I think that there are many factors at work explaining how some Thais struggle to master English.

 

1. It is not their first language.
2. The fear of losing face (especially when speaking) is making learning almost impossible. Practice makes perfect and if you don't practice, learning is not likely to occur much. (My wife knows a friend who is a Thai English teacher. I have met her a few times in the past. She hardly speaks English when we are in mixed company. In fact, last time, when on the spur of a moment, my wife invited her to eat for her BD, the second sentence was: "So, have you learned Thai yet?" The rest of the dinner took place in Thai, unless I interjected with a few questions in English, to wish she replied in English, but very succinctly. There were 3 people at the dinner table!)
3. A few posters mentioned that there is this deep-seeded notion that foreigners are idiots. Some of us tend to act in a manner that Thai consider dishonorable (raising our voice,...). Whether it is a clever way to save face or not, I think many Thais believe the propaganda, especially the ones who don't speak English. It is true that --on the face of it-- people who do not speak any language might be easily perceived as being stupid, as it might be self-evident to THEM that we cannot even speak. We also look silly when we do not seem to get things that are so easy for them to get. Most of them might not have had to learn another language as well, which reduces understanding and empathy.
4. As others have pointed, subtitling movies is not the norm in Thailand. This would help, although that does create some problems. See next point. As Loeilad mentioned: "I was talking to a Thai university student a few years back about visiting America...I pointed out that whereas in Thailand you can meet a lot of people who understand a bit of English, virtually no-one in the USA would speak Thai.  this seemed to surprise him as so many Americans in the movies spoke such good Thai."
5. English has one of the worst phonemic systems of all western languages as explained here, which has the pernicious effect of making spelling excruciatingly difficult to master/attain if one focused too much (or at all) on speaking mastery or of making pronouncing excruciatingly difficult to master/attain if one focuses too much (or at all) on writing mastery (spelling and grammar). As long as Commonwealth speakers do not come to terms with the obvious (see comment with data to prove the point), do not be surprise that native-speakers or not will struggle to learn English. It is hard to fault Thais (anyone really) when no one (especially the ones who should) is taking responsibility for fixing the underlying problem. 
6. A few posters made the comment that the Filipinos (to name one group) seem to be quite proficient in English (as a nation). I have not been there, but I know quite a bit of Filipinos in my country (an English country) and it is true that there fluency (accent and use of English) was better than the average Thais. I am comparing apples and oranges, if I compare local Thais with Filipinos living overseas. I wonder why that is. I could hypothesize that (and forgive me if this was replied to and I missed it) there is a rather large diaspora of Filipinos in English speaking countries. I suspect they go it and others get sponsored. I wonder if not most of the Filipino English-teachers haven't got their training (as it were) in English-speaking countries. Is it that the Filipinos do not have that culture of losing face or not to the degree that the Thais have it? Is the educational system different? Are they spending more time on speaking/listening activities in classes? Are the Filipinos seeing the advantages of learning English (so that they can make good money overseas)? (Not many Thais have that chance, unless you come from a wealthy family, it seems, even, in some countries, you have a house under your name, unless you are willing to part with your kids, which is often one of the conditions for getting a visa.) Tagalog has integrated 1500 or so English words in its 30,000 words (root words) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_loanwords_in_Tagalog#Spanish). There are 5000 words that are of Spanish origin. When one realizes that about 50% of English words are Latin/French, it might given the Filipinos an edge that the Thai don't have. In other words, comparing is not easy.
7. There might be too much teaching of the writing code by Thai teachers in regular public schools.
8. There might be a general reluctance or a clever strategy from the establishment to keep the system as is, giving the Thais who can learn English abroad or who can go to international schools an incredible advantage.
9. There are many countries where many speakers struggle with English pronunciation. Have you ever heard a French-speaker speaking English lately? An Italian? Spanish? Still, cross the border to Belgium and most Belgians, IF they are from Brussels and the north, have a much better English accent. That is not because there are smarter. We all know that speakers of Germanic languages like Dutch and German have excellent command of English as well. It is true that most of the Dutch teachers in Belgium would be quite good at teaching English, with the accent to match. One of the main reasons why Romance language learners struggle with English (mostly the pronouncing bit) is that 50% of the words in English are close to their own words. They have a tough time dissociating the 2 pronunciations and, in the case of English,  pronunciation is a nightmare since (1) almost all words have a schwa which is not clearly indicated as such (there are 13 ways to spell it) and (2) almost all words have a word stress that is irregular that hinges on knowing where the schwa is. Moreover, English has all of those other vowel phonemes that can be spelled in multiple ways. In other words, except for the consonants, English is a mess, especially for common words. But polysyllabic words, while more regular have that schwa and that unpredictable stress. It is worth adding that the word stress is more important that in other languages in English. Add one pronunciation error and most English speakers will not understand. In other words, English is a royal mess to learn to speak, to read, to spell,... and to teach. If you stress pronunciation, most students will struggle decoding/reading/spelling. If you stress decoding/reading/spelling, they will struggle pronouncing words. In other words, it might not be so much the teachers, the students, the Thai system,.. but the English spelling system is part of the problem. But, it is easier to blame the Thais. (Explained in my original post.)
10. This is related to #2. There is a lot less incentive for students, teachers, administrators to excel if they know that each one of them, if they fail in some way, will be bailed out by the system, by a person, or my by an excuse. There is a culture of not rocking the boat and patching holes to pretend all is fine. Note, however, that that this exactly what is happening with the Commonwealth with regards to the dire state of their spelling system. They know it is unsuitable as a spelling system and as a teaching tool (and so is the alphabet/song), but very few people are ready to fix the underlying issue. So, you can join the English Spelling Society (from England, btw) and show support. Otherwise, don't even start complaining about the Thai system(s) or the Chinese who might decide to impose their standard, which is just as bad. Note that Pinyin has been introduced to teach Chinese now. Currently, the English spelling system is the epitome of linguistic embarrassment and, as a lingua franca, a toxic, cultural invasion of the worst kind. It is not the language, of course, but the lack of maintenance and responsibility that are reprehensible.
11. I will leave the best for last. I am surprised no one has mentioned that teachers could be at fault. Is that a taboo? While I am sure there are a lot of teachers trying their hardest to make something happening, it is also true that there are the other type. Dare I say the one who might or might not have the credentials, the diplomas, the teacher's degree,... who copied them online No one can tell me it does not happen. An acquaintance of mine told me he needed to get a job. As luck would have it, he knew of a teacher who was leaving/retiring. He asked him to support his application, got an interview, and gave a bogus teaching degree. He got hired. He had an impeccable accent. LOL He never asked for any advice. His wife became a teacher too. I don't think she had the credentials needed to too. 

 

Did I miss any points mentioned? I will update or make another post if need be.

 

Re 4 - I was talking to a Thai university student a few years back about visiting America...I pointed out that whereas in Thailand you can meet a lot of people who understand a bit of English, virtually no-one in the USA would speak Thai.  this seemed to surprise him as so many Americans in the movies spoke such good Thai.

 

^ - Philippines - as Philippines was both a Spanish and American colony there is a centuries long tradition of learning western Language and Tagalog has western phrases in it.

 

many Asians find learning Thai much easier than westerners because there are commonalities....its like a westerner learning Spanish, which is reputedly the easiest language in world to learn.....however Spanish speakers seem to have a lot of trouble learning English in Europe.

[Loeilad]

2 hours ago, jpinx said:

If you're not writing to me -- don't use the "Quote" button.

I'm not writing to jpinx, but I thought I'd use his post as an example of how people seem to misunderstand the use of quotations in a discussion. it says "quote" not "reply".

 

[EnlightenedAtheist]

2 hours ago, jpinx said:

If you're not writing to me -- don't use the "Quote" button.

 

Why should I take any advice from someone who is not willing to learn much anything? You choose not to answer questions (that --in truth-- you cannot answer), finding bogus reasons and try to demean anyone, finding more bogus reasons. Maybe, in a funny sort of a way, it is on-topic though. Do you have a printer? Is it working? Are you Thai? Teaching English?

[oldsailor35]

On 07/12/2016 at 3:32 AM, TerrylSky said:

It's unfortunate that it is so difficult for many qualified native English teachers to teach here, yet so many unqualified Thais are allowed to teach - if you can call it that. 

But the qualified teachers of English expect to get the same remuneration that they get in the country that

they come from.

[Loeilad]

A problem with a lot of TEFL teachers is that they really don't understand their own language - the one they are teaching........they learn through experience what "works" and what doesn't but few actually consider the why's and wherefore's of what they are teaching.

Thai people   can be phenomenally parochial in outlook - hence the anecdote about dubbed movies - and Thai is a syllable-timed, tonal language where all the syllables tend to be the same length, English is rhythmic, stress-timed language and relying heavily on syllable stress......(have you ever heard a Thai person speak French, which is predominantly syllable-timed? Their pronunciation is fantastic, because it is much more akin to Thai in the way it is spoken.

Trying to teach thais stress-timed language is a problem in itself - you have to get them to forget about tone for a start.

 

Their

There

They're

 

These words are pronounced exactly the same in English, but I've heard teachers say the 3 words and their Thai students hear three DIFFERENT words...Why? because the teacher's tone changed to emphasise these words were the same.He was using an ascending set of tones, but simply didn't realise