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University teaching shows why Thais' command of English is so abysmal!


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On 07/12/2016 at 6:56 AM, Estrada said:

Based on your poor grammar and misspelling of the subject word "Abysmal" as "Absymal", I suggest you find a better English language school to teach you English. I hope that you are not an English Language Teacher as "If the teachers haven't mastered the language, then how are they expected to teach their students?!?!"

Simple typos are common and just as long as they are understandable should be ignored when in online chat.

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6 minutes ago, oldsailor35 said:

But the qualified teachers of English expect to get the same remuneration that they get in the country that

they come from.

 

Actually I know of a multi-lingual Thai whose English is very close to being native-like and she would get paid public Thai teacher salary. Instead, she teaches French at Berlitz. Her name is Thai. There are very few people in the system who can assess applicants and pay them on their ability. She has the TEOFL, btw. It seems that whoever is at the top might not be the best qualified and it trickles down all the way to the bottom. Of course, if universities/schools pass students no matter what, then the whole check-and-balance falls apart. I suspect money does a lot of the talking as well, just like it happens at other times. Rotten to the core, a bit like the English spelling system. LOL

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15 minutes ago, Loeilad said:

A problem with a lot of TEFL teachers is that they really don't understand their own language - the one they are teaching........they learn through experience what "works" and what doesn't but few actually consider the why's and wherefore's of what they are teaching.

Thai people   can be phenomenally parochial in outlook - hence the anecdote about dubbed movies - and Thai is a syllable-timed, tonal language where all the syllables tend to be the same length, English is rhythmic, stress-timed language and relying heavily on syllable stress......(have you ever heard a Thai person speak French, which is predominantly syllable-timed? Their pronunciation is fantastic, because it is much more akin to Thai in the way it is spoken.

Trying to teach thais stress-timed language is a problem in itself - you have to get them to forget about tone for a start.

 

Their

There

They're

 

These words are pronounced exactly the same in English, but I've heard teachers say the 3 words and their Thai students hear three DIFFERENT words...Why? because the teacher's tone changed to emphasise these words were the same.He was using an ascending set of tones, but simply didn't realise

 

 

 

Bang on comment on the French part. Totally true! Their accent is perfect. Even my wife, who knows a few words here and there, pronounces them almost like a native-speaker. It is amazing. 

 

So, we do agree that the lack of a reliable spelling for the schwa in English, along with the irregular stresses, which the presence of the schwa would help indicating, is the problem. They can learn languages. They cannot learn a language that does not have a decent spelling system. The evidence is incontrovertible. I have posted the evidence. I have yet to have ONE English-speaker reply to my post saying. Yes, it is true that the English spelling system is a mess and we should fix it. NOT ONE! As I say, we can complain about the Thais all we want, we are part of the problem too and in some ways we are similarly lacking in transparency and maturity. There is still time before this threat closes to have one courageous English-speaker admit that the English spelling system is flawed and it needs to be fixed. Come on! It is not so bad! It is not you, your fault,...

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39 minutes ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:
Thanks, Loeilad! I added part of your comment in one: #4. That is very funny! 
 
Spanish is easy to learn to read and speak, but the conjugations are a pain to learn. I wish it were like English (minus the irregular past tense verbs and the prepositional verbs).
 
I added a few more points as well.
 
What we have learned so far. Did I miss any?
 
I think that there are many factors at work explaining how some Thais struggle to master English.
 
  1. It is not their first language.
  2. The fear of losing face (especially when speaking) is making learning almost impossible. Practice makes perfect and if you don't practice, learning is not likely to occur much. (My wife knows a friend who is a Thai English teacher. I have met her a few times in the past. She hardly speaks English when we are in mixed company. In fact, last time, when on the spur of a moment, my wife invited her to eat for her BD, the second sentence was: "So, have you learned Thai yet?" The rest of the dinner took place in Thai, unless I interjected with a few questions in English, to wish she replied in English, but very succinctly. There were 3 people at the dinner table!)
  3. A few posters mentioned that there is this deep-seeded notion that foreigners are idiots. Some of us tend to act in a manner that Thai consider dishonorable (raising our voice,...). Whether it is a clever way to save face or not, I think many Thais believe the propaganda, especially the ones who don't speak English. It is true that --on the face of it-- people who do not speak any language might be easily perceived as being stupid, as it might be self-evident to THEM that we cannot even speak. We also look silly when we do not seem to get things that are so easy for them to get. Most of them might not have had to learn another language as well, which reduces understanding and empathy.
  4. As others have pointed, subtitling movies is not the norm in Thailand. This would help, although that does create some problems. See next point. As Loeilad mentioned: "I was talking to a Thai university student a few years back about visiting America...I pointed out that whereas in Thailand you can meet a lot of people who understand a bit of English, virtually no-one in the USA would speak Thai.  this seemed to surprise him as so many Americans in the movies spoke such good Thai."
  5. English has one of the worst phonemic systems of all western languages as explained here, which has the pernicious effect of making spelling excruciatingly difficult to master/attain if one focused too much (or at all) on speaking mastery or of making pronouncing excruciatingly difficult to master/attain if one focuses too much (or at all) on writing mastery (spelling and grammar). As long as Commonwealth speakers do not come to terms with the obvious (see comment with data to prove the point), do not be surprise that native-speakers or not will struggle to learn English. It is hard to fault Thais (anyone really) when no one (especially the ones who should) is taking responsibility for fixing the underlying problem. 
  6. A few posters made the comment that the Filipinos (to name one group) seem to be quite proficient in English (as a nation). I have not been there, but I know quite a bit of Filipinos in my country (an English country) and it is true that there fluency (accent and use of English) was better than the average Thais. I am comparing apples and oranges, if I compare local Thais with Filipinos living overseas. I wonder why that is. I could hypothesize that (and forgive me if this was replied to and I missed it) there is a rather large diaspora of Filipinos in English speaking countries. I suspect they go it and others get sponsored. I wonder if not most of the Filipino English-teachers haven't got their training (as it were) in English-speaking countries. Is it that the Filipinos do not have that culture of losing face or not to the degree that the Thais have it? Is the educational system different? Are they spending more time on speaking/listening activities in classes? Are the Filipinos seeing the advantages of learning English (so that they can make good money overseas)? (Not many Thais have that chance, unless you come from a wealthy family, it seems, even, in some countries, you have a house under your name, unless you are willing to part with your kids, which is often one of the conditions for getting a visa.) Tagalog has integrated 1500 or so English words in its 30,000 words (root words) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_loanwords_in_Tagalog#Spanish). There are 5000 words that are of Spanish origin. When one realizes that about 50% of English words are Latin/French, it might given the Filipinos an edge that the Thai don't have. In other words, comparing is not easy.
  7. There might be too much teaching of the writing code by Thai teachers in regular public schools.
  8. There might be a general reluctance or a clever strategy from the establishment to keep the system as is, giving the Thais who can learn English abroad or who can go to international schools an incredible advantage.
  9. There are many countries where many speakers struggle with English pronunciation. Have you ever heard a French-speaker speaking English lately? An Italian? Spanish? Still, cross the border to Belgium and most Belgians, IF they are from Brussels and the north, have a much better English accent. That is not because there are smarter. We all know that speakers of Germanic languages like Dutch and German have excellent command of English as well. It is true that most of the Dutch teachers in Belgium would be quite good at teaching English, with the accent to match. One of the main reasons why Romance language learners struggle with English (mostly the pronouncing bit) is that 50% of the words in English are close to their own words. They have a tough time dissociating the 2 pronunciations and, in the case of English,  pronunciation is a nightmare since (1) almost all words have a schwa which is not clearly indicated as such (there are 13 ways to spell it) and (2) almost all words have a word stress that is irregular that hinges on knowing where the schwa is. Moreover, English has all of those other vowel phonemes that can be spelled in multiple ways. In other words, except for the consonants, English is a mess, especially for common words. But polysyllabic words, while more regular have that schwa and that unpredictable stress. It is worth adding that the word stress is more important that in other languages in English. Add one pronunciation error and most English speakers will not understand. In other words, English is a royal mess to learn to speak, to read, to spell,... and to teach. If you stress pronunciation, most students will struggle decoding/reading/spelling. If you stress decoding/reading/spelling, they will struggle pronouncing words. In other words, it might not be so much the teachers, the students, the Thai system,.. but the English spelling system is part of the problem. But, it is easier to blame the Thais. (Explained in my original post.)
  10. This is related to #2. There is a lot less incentive for students, teachers, administrators to excel if they know that each one of them, if they fail in some way, will be bailed out by the system, by a person, or my by an excuse. There is a culture of not rocking the boat and patching holes to pretend all is fine. Note, however, that that this exactly what is happening with the Commonwealth with regards to the dire state of their spelling system. They know it is unsuitable as a spelling system and as a teaching tool (and so is the alphabet/song), but very few people are ready to fix the underlying issue. So, you can join the English Spelling Society (from England, btw) and show support. Otherwise, don't even start complaining about the Thai system(s) or the Chinese who might decide to impose their standard, which is just as bad. Note that Pinyin has been introduced to teach Chinese now. Currently, the English spelling system is the epitome of linguistic embarrassment and, as a lingua franca, a toxic, cultural invasion of the worst kind. It is not the language, of course, but the lack of maintenance and responsibility that are reprehensible.
  11. I will leave the best for last. I am surprised no one has mentioned that teachers could be at fault. Is that a taboo? While I am sure there are a lot of teachers trying their hardest to make something happening, it is also true that there are the other type. Dare I say the one who might or might not have the credentials, the diplomas, the teacher's degree,... who copied them online No one can tell me it does not happen. An acquaintance of mine told me he needed to get a job. As luck would have it, he knew of a teacher who was leaving/retiring. He asked him to support his application, got an interview, and gave a bogus teaching degree. He got hired. He had an impeccable accent. LOL He never asked for any advice. His wife became a teacher too. I don't think she had the credentials needed to too. 

 

Did I miss any points mentioned? I will update or make another post if need be.
 
Re 4 - I was talking to a Thai university student a few years back about visiting America...I pointed out that whereas in Thailand you can meet a lot of people who understand a bit of English, virtually no-one in the USA would speak Thai.  this seemed to surprise him as so many Americans in the movies spoke such good Thai.
 
^ - Philippines - as Philippines was both a Spanish and American colony there is a centuries long tradition of learning western Language and Tagalog has western phrases in it.
 
many Asians find learning Thai much easier than westerners because there are commonalities....its like a westerner learning Spanish, which is reputedly the easiest language in world to learn.....however Spanish speakers seem to have a lot of trouble learning English in Europe.

 

The Philippines are doing well in English partly due to introducing English in kindergarten and then by using it as the language of instruction for core subjects, I believe this has been mandatory in all public schools since the 80's, however teachers are permitted to use a combination of Filipino and English, but not any other mother tongues, and so the amount of English received will vary school to school.

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23 minutes ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

Bang on comment on the French part. Totally true! Their accent is perfect. Even my wife, who knows a few words here and there, pronounces them almost like a native-speaker. It is amazing. 

 

So, we do agree that the lack of a reliable spelling for the schwa in English, along with the irregular stresses, which the presence of the schwa would help indicating, is the problem. They can learn languages. They cannot learn a language that does not have a decent spelling system. The evidence is incontrovertible. I have posted the evidence. I have yet to have ONE English-speaker reply to my post saying. Yes, it is true that the English spelling system is a mess and we should fix it. NOT ONE! As I say, we can complain about the Thais all we want, we are part of the problem too and in some ways we are similarly lacking in transparency and maturity. There is still time before this threat closes to have one courageous English-speaker admit that the English spelling system is flawed and it needs to be fixed. Come on! It is not so bad! It is not you, your fault,...

I don't think that spelling is a huge problem for Thais....I don't agree that the language is a mess - I think this is part of the fluidity and flexibility of english that the spelling has arisen out of multiple sources, linguistic and environmental. It should also be pointed out that attempts to "make sense" of English spelling have usually fallen flat on their face.

 

Have you read "Spell it out" by David Crystal?

 

I think rhythm and stress present a problem just as tone does for English speakers learning Thai.

IA thai speaker may say a totally correct English word to me, but if the stress is wrong, I simply "can't" hear it. same goes for English speakers trying to speak tonal languages.

 I should mention that Thai is not considered to be 100% syllable timed, but it helps English learners to think this.

 

the schwa - is a most wonderful noise made by English speakers and teachers don't seen to spend much time on it - which is building up trouble for later.....

the number of times I've heard teachers mispronouncing vowels to a class because they fail to understand the use of schwa.

the indefinite article is schwa is it not" yet how many teachers pronounce it as "AY" in front of a class.

 

Ask yourself how many syllables in "dictionary"?....my Dad would have said 5...I say 3

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someone posts that English is a 2nd language for Thai.  at best, it's a 3rd language and sometimes the 4th or 5th.  "pasa Thai" is at best a 2nd language for many Thai, unless you live in Central Thailand.  

next, how can someone who writes in English write that written English is not phonetically written or that there is any problem at all with how we use vowels or how it is written versus pronounced? English is specialized for two functions, not one.... most all languages have 2 functions, a writing system and a speaking system. 
except Central Thai

the written form of English is for reading and writing... not speaking and listening...  that's why we don't have any written vowel symbols (graphemes)... we only have 5 such symbols but about 40 actual vowels... it's easier to read because we skip the stupid vowel sounds...they are only needed for speaking and listening... because unlike Thai, written English is for writing and reading only. 

Central Thai only has one purpose, speaking and listening only. It's written form is all but phonetic.  And the northern language has no written system at all.

that's why you know where the post office is , and the nearest hospitals and police stations... but most folks have no idea where even the main branch library is, let alone any of their local branch libraries... in their own home towns! no one notices this?? 

how can such basics of language be missed? language is basic to what we are, it is what makes us human.  and I suppose I'm going to surprise a few folks by also telling you that it's primary purpose is not for communication.  is that right?  (language's primary purpose is for thinking.  quite unlike any animal communication system. it allows us to think in the abstract.  and it is something we do not learn, we are born with it.)

absolutely amazing.   



 

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You cannot tell any Thai teacher anything they know everything, they will continue to teach what "they think is English"and no one dares to tackle them about it, they are right that are Thai teachers!

I once did my wife's English homework for her, she got a mark of 25% and when I asked what was wrong with it the teacher could not answer the question! So therein lies the problem, in Thailand the education does not want help, does not want to change for they are the guardians of the English language"

Give me strength, this is not an education system it is somewhere they send children so that parents can go to work, in the west is often called childcare!

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none of these words have anywhere near the same meaning in the west as they do in Thailand and to some degree other Asian countries as well, but only some other Asian countries:

 

teacher

student

education

 

take "student".... in Thailand it means someone of a certain age that wears a uniform and some additional rules about behavior.  in the west, if anyone ever stops being a student... they never were a student.  very very different.

  

 

 

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On 06/12/2016 at 3:30 PM, GAZZPA said:

What? There are no versions of English. English is English. There are some slight differences on some words and some local slang but mostly it is purely accent, nothing more.

 

From what I observe thai people have a better grasp then the press would have you believe. Of course if you speak too fast then it can be a problem for some but generally its ok for basic things everyday.

 

However, neighbouring countries such as Singapore, Malaysia and particularly the Philippines are light years away with English language skills.

 

 

 

 

 

Sheer ignorance. Professional linguists categorise English into many varieties. To name just a few, there are British English, American English, Australian English, Singaporean English, South African English and Jamaican English. They are differentiated because they have differing grammar, vocabulary and pronunciation. "Accent", contrary to what you say, is the least of the differences. 

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I really think the big issue is that Central Thai is phonetically written.

English for instance has only 5 vowel graphemes, because written English is specialized for reading and writing. 

Central Thai is only for speaking and listening. 



 

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On 06/12/2016 at 3:58 PM, AlQaholic said:

Are you an English person?

Are you English?

Are you an Englishman?

Are you from England?

Are your heritage from England by any means?

Do you stem from England perhaps?

Is England the Country from where you come?

Is England you country of origin?

Are you from that little Island just North of Europe?

Is it from England that you come?

Did you come from England?

Do you count England as your place of origin?

 

 

None of these is the correct translation, which is "You're English, are you?"

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9 minutes ago, maewang99 said:

someone posts that English is a 2nd language for Thai.  at best, it's a 3rd language and sometimes the 4th or 5th.  "pasa Thai" is at best a 2nd language for many Thai, unless you live in Central Thailand.  

next, how can someone who writes in English write that written English is not phonetically written... English is two languages.... like most all languages.. except Central Thai.... the written version is for reading and writing... that's why we don't have any written vowel symbols (graphemes)... we only have 5 such symbols but about 40 actual vowels... it's easier to read because we skip the stupid vowel sounds...they are only needed for speaking and listening... because unlike Thai, written English is for writing and reading only.  Central Thai only has one purpose, speaking and listening only. It's written form is all but phonetic.  And the northern language has no written system at all.

that's why you know where the post office is , and the nearest hospitals and police stations... but most folks have no idea where even the main branch library is, let alone any of their local branch libraries... in their own home towns! no one notices this?? 

how can such basics of language be missed? language is basic to what we are, it is what makes us human.  and I suppose I'm going to surprise a few folks by also telling you that it's primary purpose is not for communication.  is that right?  (language's primary purpose is for thinking.  quite unlike any animal communication system. it allows us to think in the abstract.  and it is something we do not learn, we are born with it.)

absolutely amazing.   

 

I guess when you are stating that Thais are often bilingual or multilingual, you are talking about the different dialects. Is that right? Some of these dialects have no written form to speak of. So, to mention that they are multilingual is a bit over-the-top in that sense. 

 

English is partly phonemic as explained here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/957214-university-teaching-shows-why-thais-command-of-english-is-so-abysmal/?page=9#comment-11400726 I think that what you are saying that it is like it is 2 languages. Consonants are very regularly phonemic though. The alphabet could be improved and included more phonemes. The short-vowel phonemes should be introduced first not the alphabetic vowels.

 

 

There is a difference between language and spelling systems. We agree. Right? IN that sense, most people learn to speak and listen to at least one language with ease. It is often that reading and writing are problematic. The question is ... is it the system that is problematic or it is the people? It is my contention that it is the system that is. I wish the system was better so that a better understanding between all humans could occur. It is kind of hard to do when people don't speak the same language.

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34 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

The Philippines are doing well in English partly due to introducing English in kindergarten and then by using it as the language of instruction for core subjects, I believe this has been mandatory in all public schools since the 80's, however teachers are permitted to use a combination of Filipino and English, but not any other mother tongues, and so the amount of English received will vary school to school.

 

Thanks. Great points. To do that, one must have a lot of teachers trained and willing to do it. How are my hypotheses? Do you know more?

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as for reading and writing, English is really two languages, especially so from a Thai perspective.  that is why we have only 5 vowel graphemes, for instance.  it is quicker to read and write if you don't have to spell phonetically.  but we do with Central Thai.

it's just like how if you study languages in general,  at some point you discover that (1) all human languages share a set of universal basics and (2) language is not primarily for communication.. it is how we think and it is what makes us human... communication is secondary to the human language capacity.

 

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19 minutes ago, sprq said:

 

Sheer ignorance. Professional linguists categorise English into many varieties. To name just a few, there are British English, American English, Australian English, Singaporean English, South African English and Jamaican English. They are differentiated because they have differing grammar, vocabulary and pronunciation. "Accent", contrary to what you say, is the least of the differences. 

 

There are many varieties of accents. It is true that it does take some getting used to some dialects. It makes learning a it more difficult when one is getting toi heart all kinds of varieties though. I am not Thai, but I think this does not help. The spelling system is confusing enough as it is, one should not add one more layer of complexity on top of that. I will add your point in my list. Good point.

 

Although the chart shows off some of the most extreme differences (common words are prone to more eccentricities), it highlights the general difficulties.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_chart_for_English_dialects

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Thailand has plenty of teachers already, even if we don't count the contract ones.....

 

by teaching core subjects in English, the PI student is using language for what it is intended for... thinking.  that is not done at all in the Thai system, in any human language let alone any of the Thai "dialects" including the Central Thai one that many folks refer to as "pasa Thai".

that's the key difference as contrasted with the PI. 

for example, most Thai students have no regular habit of raising their hand in the classroom... whereas for most of the rest of us we raise our hands without even consciously thinking of it.  as a reflex when we don't understand something in class or want to add our own ideas to that of other students or the teachers ideas.

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10 minutes ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

Thanks. Great points. To do that, one must have a lot of teachers trained and willing to do it. How are my hypotheses? Do you know more?

 

Yes, an awful lot of teachers competent in English, that would only be achievable in Thailand with a substantial wage hike. 

 

Your hypotheses are good, I think you have covered most if not all aspects.

 

No, I truly know less. ;(

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Thailand has too many teachers.... without even counting any of the contract ajarn.  And their English skills are irrelevant if the students are supposed to just sit in the classroom like dodo birds.

 

as for money, they are already the highest paid civil service... same pay scales as a medical specialist or judge at the highest level. only the Civil Service wannabees get paid meager salaries and benefits... and the fake farlang (and other foreign) tea money "teachers".

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On 06/12/2016 at 10:13 PM, Shawn0000 said:

 

That theory would work if English was a phonetic language, as it is not it is actually way off.  Spelling is obviously not the problem as Thai students ability to spell far exceeds their ability to pronounce and also understand spoken English, the problem lying in the unbalanced teaching of the four skills.

There is no such thing as a "phonetic language". There are languages that have a spelling system which closely correlates with the spoken language, such as Spanish, and languages where the spelling system is anarchic and so does not correlate very well with the spoken language, with English being an outstanding example.

 

It's truly tough for students worldwide that the world's lingua franca has such a chaotic spelling system, but there's nothing we can do about it now.

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Central Thai is written phonetically.  that's why the English/Thai Thai/English biling dictionaries have no need for the IPA or a Webster Guide.

 

written English is perfect... for reading and writing.

no problem... if there is a problem it ain't because of the English writing system.
 

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On 07/12/2016 at 10:34 AM, pookiki said:

It was clear a long time ago, mate.  English is also an 'ethnicity', right?  That is the distinction that I was trying to make all along. Just trying to make a distinction between nationality and ethnicity.  Lost in translation! 

 

English is absolutely not an ethnicity. When referring to people, it is solely a nationality. An English person can be of any ethnicity whatsoever.

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yeah.

when someone asks "where ya from?" it's merely conversational in the rest of the world.  here it is code.

Thai culture means Thai educated.  it means who the person is.

in the west, who a person is has NOTHING to do with where they send their tax payments to..... uhh.. let me qualify that for the USA... only on the two coasts....what really goes on in the middle of the country I have my doubts about. 

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4 minutes ago, sprq said:

There is no such thing as a "phonetic language". There are languages that have a spelling system which closely correlates with the spoken language, such as Spanish, and languages where the spelling system is anarchic and so does not correlate very well with the spoken language, with English being an outstanding example.

 

It's truly tough for students worldwide that the world's lingua franca has such a chaotic spelling system, but there's nothing we can do about it now.

 

There is, we could change it, in fact we already have started, the Americans have been busy at it for 200 years and they show no sign of stopping.  A few examples; defense, thru, donut.  We could also follow China's model and introduce something in the way of Standard Simplified English.

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Thai / English  and English / Thai bilingual dictionaries have no need for an IPA or Webster guide. why?????

because Central Thai is all but 100% phonetic... even the exceptions are very consistent, such that arguably we can write a set of rules that makes it all but 100% phonetically written. 

the tones, vowel lengths, all of the phonemes... are written in Central Thai.  and Central Thai can be used to write almost any spoken language.. and is for Kam Mueang.... as well as English itself (i.e. once again, in the bilingual dictionaries used here).

 

that is VERY different from English and hence a serious paradigm for Thai learners. 

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another example of English as two functions/versions.  not just that we don't spell our vowels in the written form.....

in the spoken system we can change tones to add meaning....  but by doing so not causing any confusion or error at all in fact, the opposite...  we can't do that at all in Central Thai.  it is phonetic between the literary version and the spoken language.   English is not.

 

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23 minutes ago, maewang99 said:

Thailand has too many teachers.... without even counting any of the contract ajarn.  And their English skills are irrelevant if the students are supposed to just sit in the classroom like dodo birds.

 

as for money, they are already the highest paid civil service... same pay scales as a medical specialist or judge at the highest level. only the Civil Service wannabees get paid meager salaries and benefits... and the fake farlang (and other foreign) tea money "teachers".

 

No, civil servants are all on a pay-scale related to their qualification, it is within the constitution that all civil service salaries are relative, it is not legally possible to increase one services salaries without effecting all of the civil service.  A teacher starts out with a bachelors on 14,000, a doctor starts out with a doctorate on 26,000, they both receive annual salary increases of 5-6%.

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