University teaching shows why Thais' command of English is so abysmal!

[Artisi]

17 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Yes, i agree, but i have certain standards of behaviour and i stick to them. I taught myself German 40 odd years ago with a girlfriend who spoke only high German (we lived in Bavaria) and a copy of 'The Pate ' in German. It took me several years to appreciate the soft beauty of the Bavarian dialect, i still have a slight Bavarian accent when i speak high German, but i frowned upon anyone who could only speak the dialect, someone only speaking Bavarian couldn't communicate with another German living in Hamburg only speaking platt deutsch. Language is about communicating and the more beautiful a language is the better the experience. It is also an important marker for their standard of education,although not always, and social standing, i come from a working class family but my parents were insistent that we spoke the 'queens English' free of accent, that isn't easy living in London. I find speaking to a 'chav' distressing and so i avoid it.

Oh!, we are being bloody posh aren't we. (make sure you apply the correct upper- class accent when reading it)

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, Artisi said:

Oh!, we are being bloody posh aren't we. (make sure you apply the correct upper- class accent when reading it)

I have stated that I come from a working class family, i don't have a 'posh' accent but it is, I hope, accent free. I presume you meant 'apply the correct upper-class accent when writing it, you are free to imagine whatever accent you wish when reading it. No need to be aggressive.

[scorecard]

Perhaps there's another point. The headline is:

 

"University teaching shows why Thais' command of English is so abysmal!"

 

So what was the writer of the headline really meaning?

 

- The 'quality' of English used by Thai and/or farang lecturers in the classroom? or

- The 'quality' of English held by the students in the classroom? Which could mean:

- Their ability to comprehend what the lecturer is saying?

- Their ability to respond verbally in English?

- Their ability to respond in written English?

 

- In most cases Thai (and foreign exchange students studying in Thailand or anywhere) are not expecting to be taught English skills, they know that they need to cope immediate / at first lecture with English, meaning subjects like engineering, business, etc.  

 

- Even if they are studying for a BA in English this would normally not be a course to learn to speak English, the content of the course is much more likely intended to study the history and overall development of the English language and the background intricacies of the language, etc.

 

In other words the students are expected to have developed good English skills before registering for courses taught in English.

 

On the other hand there are plenty of native speaker lecturers in many faculties of Thai universities. And there are also plenty of Thai lecturers who have studied abroad for long periods and have very strong English skills. And there are smaller numbers of Thai lecturers who have every possible level of English language abilities. In some cases the last group are assigned to each in English because of the depth of the subject knowledge, perhaps in science, etc., and in some such cases the university cannot find a lecturer with strong English capabilities.

 

- However several Thai universities do have an on campus English Language Institute (part of the actual university structure, not a language school from outside), which does have the intent of teaching / learning to read, comprehend, speak and write English. Generally these institutes have very highly qualified farang lecturers (in two cases I'm aware of both such institutes have 2 Ph.D. holders on staff). And unless it's recently changed these courses are very expensive and have quite small classes and a very small total number of classes.

 

So, bottom line, are Thai universities to blame for the overall level of English in Thailand? 

[soalbundy]

2 hours ago, Loeilad said:

There are several billion English speaking people who don't agree with you and might well consider you to be laughably out of touch.

Another reason for not liking slang or lazy speech is that it simply doesn't sound nice. Michael Cains performance as a high class officer in the film Zulu is a case in point, for my ears at least, his speech in the film was vastly superior to his natural way of speaking when being interviewed. Society seems to have a propensity to gravitate towards the lowest denominator, why I don't know. People go to a great deal of trouble and expense to dress well in order to give a good impression of themselves ignoring the fact that ones manner of speaking will make a far greater impression in the negative as well as the positive innit.

[Loeilad]

2 hours ago, soalbundy said:

Yes, i agree, but i have certain standards of behaviour and i stick to them. I taught myself German 40 odd years ago with a girlfriend who spoke only high German (we lived in Bavaria) and a copy of 'The Pate ' in German. It took me several years to appreciate the soft beauty of the Bavarian dialect, i still have a slight Bavarian accent when i speak high German, but i frowned upon anyone who could only speak the dialect, someone only speaking Bavarian couldn't communicate with another German living in Hamburg only speaking platt deutsch. Language is about communicating and the more beautiful a language is the better the experience. It is also an important marker for their standard of education,although not always, and social standing, i come from a working class family but my parents were insistent that we spoke the 'queens English' free of accent, that isn't easy living in London. I find speaking to a 'chav' distressing and so i avoid it.

pretty obvious i'd say - and indicative of someone who would rather make assumptions and subjective comments than display any knowledge of English language or learning language - remember the plural of anecdote is not data.

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, Loeilad said:

pretty obvious i'd say - and indicative of someone who would rather make assumptions and subjective comments than display any knowledge of English language or learning language - remember the plural of anecdote is not data.

Data may be objective but impressions made in the use of language are subjective

[Artisi]

2 hours ago, soalbundy said:

I have stated that I come from a working class family, i don't have a 'posh' accent but it is, I hope, accent free. I presume you meant 'apply the correct upper-class accent when writing it, you are free to imagine whatever accent you wish when reading it. No need to be aggressive.

I didn't intend nor was I aiming to be agressive, as a Pommie I assumed you would be amenable in having the piss taken regarding the dig  "posh" and not take it too seriously. 

[EnlightenedAtheist]

19 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

I don't have much time this evening, I only scan read it and haven't yet looked at the links, but my initial thoughts were of the many patois of English, pidgins and creoles, youth speak and textese, and I thought about the fact that we have a great resource of alternative, logical, spellings at our disposal, and that we are perhaps already moving in this direction naturally anyway.

 

 Thank you.

 

The idea that spelling changes have, are, and will occur has not been borne out by any kind of reading I have see online or anywhere, safe for the "innit" contraction written about in this threat. Spell-checking being so ubiquitous now and spelling nazis working hard to keep everything in cheque (oops, check). We have been waiting for 250 years for a natural occurrence or occurrences to happen and it has not.

 

The dialectal issues are not only addressed in the link given. This objection is a bit of a red-herring. It is not an issue, at all, and has not been for 250 years. Why would it become an issue with a more regular, coherent spelling system. 

[soalbundy]

1 hour ago, Artisi said:

I didn't intend nor was I aiming to be agressive, as a Pommie I assumed you would be amenable in having the piss taken regarding the dig  "posh" and not take it too seriously. 

OK, i think it was because i was expecting something like this, sorry i took it the wrong way. People get aggressive for all sorts of obscure reasons on TV, it's only opinions that are being tossed about but TV is excellent for developing a thick skin.

[Loeilad]

4 hours ago, soalbundy said:

I have stated that I come from a working class family, i don't have a 'posh' accent but it is, I hope, accent free. I presume you meant 'apply the correct upper-class accent when writing it, you are free to imagine whatever accent you wish when reading it. No need to be aggressive.

" i don't have a 'posh' accent but it is, I hope, accent free." - QED - this person has not even a basic idea about the English language, yet feels he can make  "pronouncements" on it

[soalbundy]

11 minutes ago, Loeilad said:

" i don't have a 'posh' accent but it is, I hope, accent free." - QED - this person has not even a basic idea about the English language, yet feels he can make  "pronouncements" on it

I don't know what is running across your liver at the moment. I haven't attacked you in any way, why so aggressive? My knowledge of English comes from being English. I don't make pronouncements, i gave my opinions, why this should annoy you i have no idea.

[Slip]

2 hours ago, Artisi said:

I didn't intend nor was I aiming to be agressive, as a Pommie I assumed you would be amenable in having the piss taken regarding the dig  "posh" and not take it too seriously. 

Do you mean "I assumed you, as a pommie, would be amenable to..."?

Notwithstanding such piss taking as that and this, the debate is perhaps the best I have seen in all my years on TV.  Bravo everyone.

[EnlightenedAtheist]

2 hours ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

 Thank you.

 

The idea that spelling changes have, are, and will occur has not been borne out by any kind of reading I have see online or anywhere, safe for the "innit" contraction written about in this threat. Spell-checking being so ubiquitous now and spelling nazis working hard to keep everything in cheque (oops, check). We have been waiting for 250 years for a natural occurrence or occurrences to happen and it has not.

 

The dialectal issues are not only addressed in the link given. This objection is a bit of a red-herring. It is not an issue, at all, and has not been for 250 years. Why would it become an issue with a more regular, coherent spelling system. 

 

edit: 

 

The idea that spelling changes have, are, and will occur has not been borne out by any kind of reading I have seen online or anywhere, safe for the "innit" contraction written about in this threat. Spell-checking being so ubiquitous now and spelling Nazis working hard to keep everything in cheque (oops, check), I don't think it will happen on its own. We have been waiting for 250 years for a natural occurrence to happen and it has not.

 

The dialectal issues are addressed in the link given. This objection is a bit of a red-herring. It is not an issue at all and has not been for 250 years. Why would it become an issue with a more regular, coherent spelling system?

 

(Just in case the grammar Nazis are out and about.)

[EnlightenedAtheist]

6 hours ago, scorecard said:

Perhaps there's another point. The headline is:

 

"University teaching shows why Thais' command of English is so abysmal!"

 

So what was the writer of the headline really meaning?

 

- The 'quality' of English used by Thai and/or farang lecturers in the classroom? or

- The 'quality' of English held by the students in the classroom? Which could mean:

- Their ability to comprehend what the lecturer is saying?

- Their ability to respond verbally in English?

- Their ability to respond in written English?

 

- In most cases Thai (and foreign exchange students studying in Thailand or anywhere) are not expecting to be taught English skills, they know that they need to cope immediate / at first lecture with English, meaning subjects like engineering, business, etc.  

 

- Even if they are studying for a BA in English this would normally not be a course to learn to speak English, the content of the course is much more likely intended to study the history and overall development of the English language and the background intricacies of the language, etc.

 

In other words the students are expected to have developed good English skills before registering for courses taught in English.

 

On the other hand there are plenty of native speaker lecturers in many faculties of Thai universities. And there are also plenty of Thai lecturers who have studied abroad for long periods and have very strong English skills. And there are smaller numbers of Thai lecturers who have every possible level of English language abilities. In some cases the last group are assigned to each in English because of the depth of the subject knowledge, perhaps in science, etc., and in some such cases the university cannot find a lecturer with strong English capabilities.

 

- However several Thai universities do have an on campus English Language Institute (part of the actual university structure, not a language school from outside), which does have the intent of teaching / learning to read, comprehend, speak and write English. Generally these institutes have very highly qualified farang lecturers (in two cases I'm aware of both such institutes have 2 Ph.D. holders on staff). And unless it's recently changed these courses are very expensive and have quite small classes and a very small total number of classes.

 

So, bottom line, are Thai universities to blame for the overall level of English in Thailand? 

 

Thanks for the input. Interesting! Is this about BKK or some other places in Asia?

 

The article talks about a Thai teacher of English, but the discussion has focused on Thai students more, although some of the comments could apply to some Thai teachers.

 

To save everyone from having to read 20 pages of comments, here is a summary of the issues broached.

 

1. It is not their first language.
2. The fear of losing face (especially when speaking) is making learning almost impossible. Practice makes perfect and if you don't practice, learning is not likely to occur much. (My wife knows a friend who is a Thai English teacher. I have met her a few times in the past. She hardly speaks English when we are in mixed company. In fact, last time, when on the spur of a moment, my wife invited her to eat for her BD, the second sentence was: "So, have you learned Thai yet?" The rest of the dinner took place in Thai, unless I interjected with a few questions in English, to wish she replied in English, but very succinctly. There were 3 people at the dinner table!)
3. A few posters mentioned that there is this deep-seeded notion that foreigners are idiots. Some of us tend to act in a manner that Thai consider dishonorable (raising our voice,...). Whether it is a clever way to save face or not, I think many Thais believe the propaganda, especially the ones who don't speak English. It is true that --on the face of it-- people who do not speak any language might be easily perceived as being stupid, as it might be self-evident to THEM that we cannot even speak. We also look silly when we do not seem to get things that are so easy for them to get. Most of them might not have had to learn another language as well, which reduces understanding and empathy.
4. As others have pointed, subtitling movies is not the norm in Thailand. This would help, although that does create some problems. See next point. As Loeilad mentioned: "I was talking to a Thai university student a few years back about visiting America...I pointed out that whereas in Thailand you can meet a lot of people who understand a bit of English, virtually no-one in the USA would speak Thai.  this seemed to surprise him as so many Americans in the movies spoke such good Thai."
5. English has one of the worst phonemic systems of all western languages as explained here, which has the pernicious effect of making spelling excruciatingly difficult to master/attain if one focused too much (or at all) on speaking mastery or of making pronouncing excruciatingly difficult to master/attain if one focuses too much (or at all) on writing mastery (spelling and grammar). As long as Commonwealth speakers do not come to terms with the obvious (see comment with data to prove the point), do not be surprise that native-speakers or not will struggle to learn English. It is hard to fault Thais (anyone really) when no one (especially the ones who should) is taking responsibility for fixing the underlying problem. 
6. A few posters made the comment that the Filipinos (to name one group) seem to be quite proficient in English (as a nation). I have not been there, but I know quite a bit of Filipinos in my country (an English country) and it is true that there fluency (accent and use of English) was better than the average Thais. I am comparing apples and oranges, if I compare local Thais with Filipinos living overseas. I wonder why that is. I could hypothesize that (and forgive me if this was replied to and I missed it) there is a rather large diaspora of Filipinos in English speaking countries. I suspect they go it and others get sponsored. I wonder if not most of the Filipino English-teachers haven't got their training (as it were) in English-speaking countries. Is it that the Filipinos do not have that culture of losing face or not to the degree that the Thais have it? Is the educational system different? Are they spending more time on speaking/listening activities in classes? Are the Filipinos seeing the advantages of learning English (so that they can make good money overseas)? (Not many Thais have that chance, unless you come from a wealthy family, it seems, even, in some countries, you have a house under your name, unless you are willing to part with your kids, which is often one of the conditions for getting a visa.) Tagalog has integrated 1500 or so English words in its 30,000 words (root words) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_loanwords_in_Tagalog#Spanish). There are 5000 words that are of Spanish origin. When one realizes that about 50% of English words are Latin/French, it might given the Filipinos an edge that the Thai don't have. In other words, comparing is not easy.
7. There might be too much teaching of the writing code by Thai teachers in regular public schools.
8. There might be a general reluctance or a clever strategy from the establishment to keep the system as is, giving the Thais who can learn English abroad or who can go to international schools an incredible advantage.
9. There are many countries where many speakers struggle with English pronunciation. Have you ever heard a French-speaker speaking English lately? An Italian? Spanish? Still, cross the border to Belgium and most Belgians, IF they are from Brussels and the north, have a much better English accent. That is not because there are smarter. We all know that speakers of Germanic languages like Dutch and German have excellent command of English as well. It is true that most of the Dutch teachers in Belgium would be quite good at teaching English, with the accent to match. One of the main reasons why Romance language learners struggle with English (mostly the pronouncing bit) is that 50% of the words in English are close to their own words. They have a tough time dissociating the 2 pronunciations and, in the case of English,  pronunciation is a nightmare since (1) almost all words have a schwa which is not clearly indicated as such (there are 13 ways to spell it) and (2) almost all words have a word stress that is irregular that hinges on knowing where the schwa is. Moreover, English has all of those other vowel phonemes that can be spelled in multiple ways. In other words, except for the consonants, English is a mess, especially for common words. But polysyllabic words, while more regular have that schwa and that unpredictable stress. It is worth adding that the word stress is more important that in other languages in English. Add one pronunciation error and most English speakers will not understand. In other words, English is a royal mess to learn to speak, to read, to spell,... and to teach. If you stress pronunciation, most students will struggle decoding/reading/spelling. If you stress decoding/reading/spelling, they will struggle pronouncing words. In other words, it might not be so much the teachers, the students, the Thai system,.. but the English spelling system is part of the problem. But, it is easier to blame the Thais. (Explained in my original post.)
10. This is related to #2. There is a lot less incentive for students, teachers, administrators to excel if they know that each one of them, if they fail in some way, will be bailed out by the system, by a person, or my by an excuse. There is a culture of not rocking the boat and patching holes to pretend all is fine. Note, however, that that this exactly what is happening with the Commonwealth with regards to the dire state of their spelling system. They know it is unsuitable as a spelling system and as a teaching tool (and so is the alphabet/song), but very few people are ready to fix the underlying issue. So, you can join the English Spelling Society (from England, btw) and show support. Otherwise, don't even start complaining about the Thai system(s) or the Chinese who might decide to impose their standard, which is just as bad. Note that Pinyin has been introduced to teach Chinese now. Currently, the English spelling system is the epitome of linguistic embarrassment and, as a lingua franca, a toxic, cultural invasion of the worst kind. It is not the language, of course, but the lack of maintenance and responsibility that are reprehensible.
11. I will leave the best for last. I am surprised no one has mentioned that teachers could be at fault. Is that a taboo? While I am sure there are a lot of teachers trying their hardest to make something happening, it is also true that there are the other type. Dare I say the one who might or might not have the credentials, the diplomas, the teacher's degree,... who copied them online No one can tell me it does not happen. An acquaintance of mine told me he needed to get a job. As luck would have it, he knew of a teacher who was leaving/retiring. He asked him to support his application, got an interview, and gave a bogus teaching degree. He got hired. He had an impeccable accent. LOL He never asked for any advice. His wife became a teacher too. I don't think she had the credentials needed to too. 

 

Did I miss any points mentioned? I will update or make another post if need be.

 

Did I miss any points mentioned? I will update or make another post if need be.

[Dumbastheycome]

5 minutes ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

Thanks for the input. Interesting! Is this about BKK or some other places in Asia?

 

The article talks about a Thai teacher of English, but the discussion has focused on Thai students more, although some of the comments could apply to some Thai teachers.

 

To save everyone from having to read 20 pages of comments, here is a summary of the issues broached.

 

1. It is not their first language.
2. The fear of losing face (especially when speaking) is making learning almost impossible. Practice makes perfect and if you don't practice, learning is not likely to occur much. (My wife knows a friend who is a Thai English teacher. I have met her a few times in the past. She hardly speaks English when we are in mixed company. In fact, last time, when on the spur of a moment, my wife invited her to eat for her BD, the second sentence was: "So, have you learned Thai yet?" The rest of the dinner took place in Thai, unless I interjected with a few questions in English, to wish she replied in English, but very succinctly. There were 3 people at the dinner table!)
3. A few posters mentioned that there is this deep-seeded notion that foreigners are idiots. Some of us tend to act in a manner that Thai consider dishonorable (raising our voice,...). Whether it is a clever way to save face or not, I think many Thais believe the propaganda, especially the ones who don't speak English. It is true that --on the face of it-- people who do not speak any language might be easily perceived as being stupid, as it might be self-evident to THEM that we cannot even speak. We also look silly when we do not seem to get things that are so easy for them to get. Most of them might not have had to learn another language as well, which reduces understanding and empathy.
4. As others have pointed, subtitling movies is not the norm in Thailand. This would help, although that does create some problems. See next point. As Loeilad mentioned: "I was talking to a Thai university student a few years back about visiting America...I pointed out that whereas in Thailand you can meet a lot of people who understand a bit of English, virtually no-one in the USA would speak Thai.  this seemed to surprise him as so many Americans in the movies spoke such good Thai."
5. English has one of the worst phonemic systems of all western languages as explained here, which has the pernicious effect of making spelling excruciatingly difficult to master/attain if one focused too much (or at all) on speaking mastery or of making pronouncing excruciatingly difficult to master/attain if one focuses too much (or at all) on writing mastery (spelling and grammar). As long as Commonwealth speakers do not come to terms with the obvious (see comment with data to prove the point), do not be surprise that native-speakers or not will struggle to learn English. It is hard to fault Thais (anyone really) when no one (especially the ones who should) is taking responsibility for fixing the underlying problem. 
6. A few posters made the comment that the Filipinos (to name one group) seem to be quite proficient in English (as a nation). I have not been there, but I know quite a bit of Filipinos in my country (an English country) and it is true that there fluency (accent and use of English) was better than the average Thais. I am comparing apples and oranges, if I compare local Thais with Filipinos living overseas. I wonder why that is. I could hypothesize that (and forgive me if this was replied to and I missed it) there is a rather large diaspora of Filipinos in English speaking countries. I suspect they go it and others get sponsored. I wonder if not most of the Filipino English-teachers haven't got their training (as it were) in English-speaking countries. Is it that the Filipinos do not have that culture of losing face or not to the degree that the Thais have it? Is the educational system different? Are they spending more time on speaking/listening activities in classes? Are the Filipinos seeing the advantages of learning English (so that they can make good money overseas)? (Not many Thais have that chance, unless you come from a wealthy family, it seems, even, in some countries, you have a house under your name, unless you are willing to part with your kids, which is often one of the conditions for getting a visa.) Tagalog has integrated 1500 or so English words in its 30,000 words (root words) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_loanwords_in_Tagalog#Spanish). There are 5000 words that are of Spanish origin. When one realizes that about 50% of English words are Latin/French, it might given the Filipinos an edge that the Thai don't have. In other words, comparing is not easy.
7. There might be too much teaching of the writing code by Thai teachers in regular public schools.
8. There might be a general reluctance or a clever strategy from the establishment to keep the system as is, giving the Thais who can learn English abroad or who can go to international schools an incredible advantage.
9. There are many countries where many speakers struggle with English pronunciation. Have you ever heard a French-speaker speaking English lately? An Italian? Spanish? Still, cross the border to Belgium and most Belgians, IF they are from Brussels and the north, have a much better English accent. That is not because there are smarter. We all know that speakers of Germanic languages like Dutch and German have excellent command of English as well. It is true that most of the Dutch teachers in Belgium would be quite good at teaching English, with the accent to match. One of the main reasons why Romance language learners struggle with English (mostly the pronouncing bit) is that 50% of the words in English are close to their own words. They have a tough time dissociating the 2 pronunciations and, in the case of English,  pronunciation is a nightmare since (1) almost all words have a schwa which is not clearly indicated as such (there are 13 ways to spell it) and (2) almost all words have a word stress that is irregular that hinges on knowing where the schwa is. Moreover, English has all of those other vowel phonemes that can be spelled in multiple ways. In other words, except for the consonants, English is a mess, especially for common words. But polysyllabic words, while more regular have that schwa and that unpredictable stress. It is worth adding that the word stress is more important that in other languages in English. Add one pronunciation error and most English speakers will not understand. In other words, English is a royal mess to learn to speak, to read, to spell,... and to teach. If you stress pronunciation, most students will struggle decoding/reading/spelling. If you stress decoding/reading/spelling, they will struggle pronouncing words. In other words, it might not be so much the teachers, the students, the Thai system,.. but the English spelling system is part of the problem. But, it is easier to blame the Thais. (Explained in my original post.)
10. This is related to #2. There is a lot less incentive for students, teachers, administrators to excel if they know that each one of them, if they fail in some way, will be bailed out by the system, by a person, or my by an excuse. There is a culture of not rocking the boat and patching holes to pretend all is fine. Note, however, that that this exactly what is happening with the Commonwealth with regards to the dire state of their spelling system. They know it is unsuitable as a spelling system and as a teaching tool (and so is the alphabet/song), but very few people are ready to fix the underlying issue. So, you can join the English Spelling Society (from England, btw) and show support. Otherwise, don't even start complaining about the Thai system(s) or the Chinese who might decide to impose their standard, which is just as bad. Note that Pinyin has been introduced to teach Chinese now. Currently, the English spelling system is the epitome of linguistic embarrassment and, as a lingua franca, a toxic, cultural invasion of the worst kind. It is not the language, of course, but the lack of maintenance and responsibility that are reprehensible.
11. I will leave the best for last. I am surprised no one has mentioned that teachers could be at fault. Is that a taboo? While I am sure there are a lot of teachers trying their hardest to make something happening, it is also true that there are the other type. Dare I say the one who might or might not have the credentials, the diplomas, the teacher's degree,... who copied them online No one can tell me it does not happen. An acquaintance of mine told me he needed to get a job. As luck would have it, he knew of a teacher who was leaving/retiring. He asked him to support his application, got an interview, and gave a bogus teaching degree. He got hired. He had an impeccable accent. LOL He never asked for any advice. His wife became a teacher too. I don't think she had the credentials needed to too. 

 

Did I miss any points mentioned? I will update or make another post if need be.

 

Did I miss any points mentioned? I will update or make another post if need be.

You are possibly correct. Lets change to   Welsh !.:)

 

[maewang99]

it's not their ***first*** language eh? how many folks live outside the Bangkok area? to them "pasa Tha" is a 2nd language. English is at best their 3rd language. and we're talking about, what?, half the country is like that?

but forgetaboutit... what about this: ?????????

(1) whenever I have gone past a classroom that has a Thai national teaching, contract or otherwise, it is the ***teacher*** that is talking. (2) I have never met a single student, and I have had thousands of students in Thai classrooms both university and high school, who has any semblance of a habit of reflexively raising his or her hand to make a contribution to a classroom presentation... ask a question... or volunteer to answer a question. (3) in the various provinces and provincial capitols I have been a Thai classroom ajarn, I still have no idea where the local library is...the place where Thai people can be seen getting or returning library books. (4) even at a Thai university, in the north, working full time and living on campus... I never saw anyone, not a student not an "ajarn" ever reading a book except to copy something.... you know? the kind of reading that in the west is quite ubiquitous.... where folks all but need to be physically shaken to get their attention because they are so engrossed in whatever they are reading... how often do you ***ever*** see that in Thailand with anyone, let alone students? (5) shall I continue with my list??????

I guess I am 'too serious'.... but to me, I am very sad when I think about this.

the entire purpose of the Thai system is indoctrination.... where I grew up, in New York, every student at some point [ several points ] has some opportunity to begin to acquire a love of learning.... that here, if it ever occurred, would be immediately pissed on.  And that I ***have*** seen.. and many many times.... and the Thai ajarn are proud of this.  what does that tell you?

 

 

[EnlightenedAtheist]

 

 

20 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said:

You are possibly correct. Lets change to   Welsh !.:)

 

 

Your point is?

 

[Dumbastheycome]

3 minutes ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

 

 

Your point is?

 

My parents taught me at an early age that it is impolite to point. I light heartedly  suggest Welsh . At least in respect of spelling it removes all those annoying  vowels. :)

[Dumbastheycome]

Ok, not all. Bron. :)

 

[Shawn0000]

2 hours ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

 Thank you.

 

The idea that spelling changes have, are, and will occur has not been borne out by any kind of reading I have see online or anywhere, safe for the "innit" contraction written about in this threat. Spell-checking being so ubiquitous now and spelling nazis working hard to keep everything in cheque (oops, check). We have been waiting for 250 years for a natural occurrence or occurrences to happen and it has not.

 

The dialectal issues are not only addressed in the link given. This objection is a bit of a red-herring. It is not an issue, at all, and has not been for 250 years. Why would it become an issue with a more regular, coherent spelling system. 

 

Standard English is quite stagnant, people fought against those who wanted to make changes and they won, but there is much more to English than the prescribed standards.  I mentioned patois as a resource of alternative spellings already at our disposal, some usable examples being; blu for blue, anka for anchor, botol for bottle, kanu for canoe.  We also have the original spellings before the silly changes were made in the 16th Century such as adding silent b's and s's.  

 

What I found most interesting in your post was the similarity between your spellings and textese, to me it is clear that great changes are already underway, you only have to read a text message from a young person to appreciate this.  Every generation develops slang words and alternative spellings that they use informally, perhaps as a way of separating themselves from the older generation, a difference that has occurred recently is that informal English is appearing in formal settings.  A short hand code developed through necessity due to the limit of characters per message has become a form of English used outside of texting.  Exam boards in the UK have been accepting answers in textese, meaning it has already become an accepted alternative standard and the boundary between informal and formal English has been officially broken.

 

It is my feeling that it is unlikely that we will see a sudden significant change driven by an organization and more likely we will see a slow shift to alternative spellings and as these gain wider acceptance, those that are most beneficial, will replace the old, but I am sure we will see changes, the youth of today are simply not having it anymore.

[EnlightenedAtheist]

14 minutes ago, maewang99 said:

it's not their ***first*** language eh? how many folks live outside the Bangkok area? to them "pasa Tha" is a 2nd language. English is at best their 3rd language. and we're talking about, what?, half the country is like that?

but forgetaboutit... what about this: ?????????

(1) whenever I have gone past a classroom that has a Thai national teaching, contract or otherwise, it is the ***teacher*** that is talking. (2) I have never met a single student, and I have had thousands of students in Thai classrooms both university and high school, who has any semblance of a habit of reflexively raising his or her hand to make a contribution to a classroom presentation... ask a question... or volunteer to answer a question. (3) in the various provinces and provincial capitols I have been a Thai classroom ajarn, I still have no idea where the local library is...the place where Thai people can be seen getting or returning library books (4) even at a Thai university, in the north, working full time and living on campus... I never saw anyone, not a student not an "ajarn" ever reading a book except to copy something.... the kind of reading in the west is ubiquitous.... where someone almost has to shaken to get their attention when reading because they are so engrossed in what they are learning... how often do you ever see that in Thailand with anyone, let alone studnets? (5) shall I continue with my list??????

I guess I am 'too serious'.... but to me, I am very sad when I think about this.

the entire purpose of the Thai system is indoctrination.... where I grew up, in New York, every student at some point [ several points ] has some opportunity to begin to acquire a love of learning.... that here that is pissed on.

 

 

Asian students have a reputation of being passive learners, which is probably related to the aversion of making any error, losing face. It forces the teacher to be socratic. Do they not do group, project work? Skits? 

[Shawn0000]

22 hours ago, soalbundy said:

They both have one thing in common, they are both disgusting

 

How shallow.

[soalbundy]

14 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

How shallow.

Well, it's only my opinion, nothing to get upset about, i accept the fact that you think differently without judging you.

[maewang99]

skits?

when you learn to be a teacher one of the basics is that each student is different. example some of us are more visual.... etc etc.... when you do things by rote... teacher... students or students in a group doing a skit... it's okay... but if that is the only time you get to think, fail, make mistakes on your own... discover on your own.... then you get what you get in the Thai system.

 

another very serious thing is copying from books or other students... this is rewarded in the Thai system... it is enshrined.... but in the Philippines.. MVP still gets kidded or hasseled sometimes about copying a few sentences in a graduation speech he made 50 years ago... here....

and that's THE PHILIPPINES... not the USA!!!!



 

[Shawn0000]

8 hours ago, soalbundy said:

Yes, i agree, but i have certain standards of behaviour and i stick to them. I taught myself German 40 odd years ago with a girlfriend who spoke only high German (we lived in Bavaria) and a copy of 'The Pate ' in German. It took me several years to appreciate the soft beauty of the Bavarian dialect, i still have a slight Bavarian accent when i speak high German, but i frowned upon anyone who could only speak the dialect, someone only speaking Bavarian couldn't communicate with another German living in Hamburg only speaking platt deutsch. Language is about communicating and the more beautiful a language is the better the experience. It is also an important marker for their standard of education,although not always, and social standing, i come from a working class family but my parents were insistent that we spoke the 'queens English' free of accent, that isn't easy living in London. I find speaking to a 'chav' distressing and so i avoid it.

 

 I think upbringing has a lot to do with it, having been born into a titled family and bought up on a country estate I have no need for the trivialities of colloquialisms and accents, I happily mix with all classes and relish their respective eccentricities.

[Shawn0000]

1 minute ago, soalbundy said:

Well, it's only my opinion, nothing to get upset about, i accept the fact that you think differently without judging you.

 

Then you can accept that I find your opinion shallow without getting upset?

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

 I think upbringing has a lot to do with it, having been born into a titled family and bought up on a country estate I have no need for the trivialities of colloquialisms and accents, I happily mix with all classes and relish their respective eccentricities.

How noble of you

[EnlightenedAtheist]

28 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Standard English is quite stagnant, people fought against those who wanted to make changes and they won, but there is much more to English than the prescribed standards.  I mentioned patois as a resource of alternative spellings already at our disposal, some usable examples being; blu for blue, anka for anchor, botol for bottle, kanu for canoe.  We also have the original spellings before the silly changes were made in the 16th Century such as adding silent b's and s's.  

 

What I found most interesting in your post was the similarity between your spellings and textese, to me it is clear that great changes are already underway, you only have to read a text message from a young person to appreciate this.  Every generation develops slang words and alternative spellings that they use informally, perhaps as a way of separating themselves from the older generation, a difference that has occurred recently is that informal English is appearing in formal settings.  A short hand code developed through necessity due to the limit of characters per message has become a form of English used outside of texting.  Exam boards in the UK have been accepting answers in textese, meaning it has already become an accepted alternative standard and the boundary between informal and formal English has been officially broken.

 

It is my feeling that it is unlikely that we will see a sudden significant change driven by an organization and more likely we will see a slow shift to alternative spellings and as these gain wider acceptance, those that are most beneficial, will replace the old, but I am sure we will see changes, the youth of today are simply not having it anymore.

 

Standard English is quite stagnant. I agree.

 

As far as popular creations like the ones you mentioned, it is like asking me to build a bridge. The average speaker is not aware of the rules, the system, the other creations made by another texter. A spelling system must be a system: coherent, systematic, reliable, regular, logical,... 

 

That being said, texting is not the solution. It is not even close, even though there are some good ideas. I am a trained teacher and have a degree in linguistics. Reforming a spelling system --especially English-- should not be left to amateurs or texters. The underlying and sine qua non feature of texting is knowing the underlying language: its lexicon, its spelling system,... and the context of the topic discussed. The reader is forced to make assumptions that the sender carefully (usually) analyzed to be reasonable. Texting would be an absolute disaster if it were to be implemented as a new spelling system. 

 

Slow changes? 250 years of slow changes has proven to be an absolute disaster as well. I  think the reformists were wrong in the past in trying to force current users to adopt the changes. Neo-reformists are more aware that this was a big error. Computers and texting did not exist then. Texters will be more open to some form of a reform. This match is not over. But, maybe we can wait for the Chinese to impose their brew onto us. That would be poetic justice, for those who continue to think that all is well in the best of worlds. It is not. We will not wait. We are tired of waiting. Change is on its way. It might not be a revolution. I suggest a reform.

[maewang99]

one image I have I can't get rid of.  a Thai senior, in a crisp new Boy Scout uniform, at the knees of a Thai ajarn, in a crisp new Civil Service uniform.... proudly standing watch over the "student" who is copying, one or two Thai morphemes at a time, quickly and seemingly without even bothering to know what he is copying, another students handed in assignment.

the lesson? several.

obedience.  #1.

doing original work? a joke. stuff someone else will copy.
thinking? learning? not only not important, stupid.

and maybe something about calligraphy skills. 

because it is the common experience I have observed many times.... and the all important uniform thing also becomes very clear... and it has nothing to do with equality. 

 

[soalbundy]

Just now, Shawn0000 said:

 

Then you can accept that I find your opinion shallow without getting upset?

Yes, it is your opinion, why should i get upset, it doesn't affect me in any way. Some people seem to get aggressive and upset on TV about posts which after all said and done are only opinions to which the posters are entitled, it shouldn't of course result in an exchange of insults,but it often does, if they are done with a certain amount of humour then it can be amusing, if not it is better to stop. As Oscar Wilde once said, ''It is always better to forgive your enemies, nothing annoys them more''.