University teaching shows why Thais' command of English is so abysmal!

[maewang99]

do it the American way!  forget the Brits!

we Americans don't use English spellings....
 
tell them to stop using {a,b,c,d,e,f,g...} and to switch to the IPA for spelling stuff.

they won't be able to use it for reading.. but that is unlikely to be a big problem for them [while we and everyone else in the world stick with the "horrific" {a,b,c,d,e,f,g...} that is way easier to write and read because it's easier than spelling out every phoneme like Thai does even though.... for speaking and listening.... Thai spelling works so good it works for English and Kam Mueang just as good as it does for Thai... even if it meant having to have a lot bigger computer keyboards.... hmmmm is there a different issue here than just English spelling and the size of computer keyboards??? do ya think maybe????? just maybe? naaaahhh!!!!
 

[EnlightenedAtheist]

15 hours ago, Richard W said:

Fine hearing is not needed for this.  The first vowel is the GOAT vowel, whether UK or US.

 

The nasty issue could be the reduced form, [o] in RP, as in the the first syllable of photographer.  Phonemically, that was still the GOAT vowel.  That allophone of the GOAT vowel seems now to have largely transferred to the schwa phoneme.

 

 

Shades of i.t.a.!

 

I'm not clear if you have now abandoned Iezy Ignglish. Your exposition needed constructive criticism, which I was gearing up to provide.

 

 

Sadly, my revised implementation using the diaphonemes and supporting new learners of the a new spelling system to continue to use/know the local dialect make this discussion quite superfluous. It is all explained in the last lengthy post I published. I will have to see if my examples are matching the diaphoneme set. The transcription was done a while back and I have hadn't the time to review it. I will. Would you be open to me sending it to you privately for your perusal? May I suggest the constructive criticisms be balanced with positive comments, so that it does not feel like plain criticism. Thank you.

[EnlightenedAtheist]

11 minutes ago, maewang99 said:

do it the American way!  forget the Brits!

we Americans don't use English spellings....
 
stop using {a,b,c,d,e,f,g...} and switch to using the IPA for spelling stuff.

just don't use it for reading stuff... which won't be a problem for you.  [but everyone else in the world can still stick with using the "horrific" {a,b,c,d,e,f,g...} that for some funny reason is easier to write as well as read than the IPA is... or we would have switched to the IPA a really long time ago... for sure.....  ****maybe***** because it's easier than spelling every phoneme like Thai does even though for speaking and listening Thai spelling works so good it works for English and Kam Mueang just as good as it does for Thai...hmmmmmm is there a different issue here than just English spelling do ya think maybe?????]

 

Americans could do this (and force the Canadians to follow). They have the numbers to justify it. American publishers would probably not care to NOT print for the British market. They would in effect force the Brits to join them, eventually.  

 

Of course, Americans would need to agree on using the American standard. I suspect the Bible belt will come lashing at the rest of the US if any change is contemplated. LOL Still, a fair implementation like I am suggesting might sway a few to agree. It would be a ... miracle, of course. LOL

 

IPA. I am okay with that, but the only issue might be the need to create a cursive writing system. Is there one? Will it be needed in a world with tablets, speech recognition, AI,...? Maybe cursive is going the way the dodo bird went. 

 

I still feel the use of the diaphonemes might be a fairer approach, a more diplomatic way.

[maewang99]

there are endless postings here that English spelling doesn't match spoken English....

thank goodness it doesn't!!!!

because if if did.... reading and writing... not just using a computer keyboard... would be very very difficult. and that is important to everyone................ except folks whose L1 is (1) all but perfectly phonetically written and (2) for which literacy means reading signs and web postings.... and comic books.... whereas in the rest of the world it means........... enjoying life.

of being conscious of much much more than just our immediate environs.... however non Buddhist that is or isn't.... similar in some ways, but not in my mind at all, to how 'putting a drunk on' isn't very Buddhist either but also not competitive at all.... with reading and writing stuff.

which, acquiring a love of is, is what we call............ education.

 

[EnlightenedAtheist]

1 hour ago, maewang99 said:

there are endless postings here that English spelling doesn't match spoken English....

thank goodness it doesn't!!!!

because if if did.... reading and writing... not just using a computer keyboard... would be very very difficult. and that is important to everyone................ except folks whose L1 is (1) all but perfectly phonetically written and (2) for which literacy means reading signs and web postings.... and comic books.... whereas in the rest of the world it means........... enjoying life.

of being conscious of much much more than just our immediate environs.... however non Buddhist that is or isn't.... similar in some ways, but not in my mind at all, to how 'putting a drunk on' isn't very Buddhist either but also not competitive at all.... with reading and writing stuff.

which, acquiring a love of is, is what we call............ education.

 

 

On the other hand, there is also the incredible stupid idea of making speakers pronounce letters as the alphabet and the rules of the basic spelling system indicate. What were the Phoenicians, Mesopotamians, Egyptians, and the Canaanites thinking about? Backward, primitive people! Surely! LOL

 

Don't feel obliged to think off 1.5 billions |English as a foreign language learners who are trying to learn a shitty language (specifically its orthography) and who are accused of being dumb. Ignore and gloss over the millions of kids who struggle to learn to decode/read, and spell too. Where is the head-hitting-the-wall emoticon when you need one? 

 

"A love of education." Of learning, perhaps! Education? 

 

This education?

 

 

We don't need no education
We dont need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teachers leave them kids alone
Hey! Teachers! Leave them kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall.

We don't need no education
We dont need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teachers leave them kids alone
Hey! Teachers! Leave them kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall.

"Wrong, Do it again!"
"If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding. How can you
have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?"
"You! Yes, you behind the bikesheds, stand still laddy!"
 

[Sound of many TV's coming on, all on different channels]
"The Bulls are already out there"
Pink: "Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrgh!"
"This Roman Meal bakery thought you'd like to know."

I don't need no arms around me
And I dont need no drugs to calm me.
I have seen the writing on the wall.
Don't think I need anything at all.
No! Don't think I'll need anything at all.
All in all it was all just bricks in the wall.
All in all you we are all just bricks in the wall.

 

 

 

 

 

[Loeilad]

4 hours ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

Is this your take on spelling and spelling reform or the view of David Crystal? If the latter, I assume you endorse this. Right?

Correct...it is a bit long to read but I think my gist is clear 

[maewang99]

Thailand needs to teach a minimum of ****two**** subjects in English. And spelling isn't one of either of them. Speaking and listening to English, and reading and writing English have very little synergy with each other, unlike Thai.  In addition, original work which involves thinking, analysis and discovery skills, needs to be absolutely paramount over memorization, copying and "having the correct answer".  Contributing to class discussions, asking questions and answering question of others needs to be paramount over obedience and respect for the "teacher".  The teacher's role is to manage and encourage a classroom experience in which the students are actively thinking and discovering a love of learning.

For speaking and listening, students need to (i) listen (ii) think (iii) speak.  Originality and effort should be immediately rewarded. "Correct" pronunciation and "correct" responses are to be the lowest priority. 

For reading and writing, just like speaking and listening.  But it cannot be taught with any expectation that acquiring those skills are transferable to speaking and listening skills in English, notwithstanding that (1) this is not true for the Thai dialects such as Central Thai and (2) that this will require quite a lot of teacher resources (time and energy and effort on the part of the teaching staff)... and therefore if you cannot afford the added resources... stop teaching core subjects in the Thai dialect. 

This is what is required because English is two languages.  The written system has evolved for reading and writing, not for learning the spoken system.  As an aid to acquiring the speaking and listening skills, Thai graphemes should be considered more applicable (for study and even assessment in the classroom perhaps), or the IPA system.... but not English alphabet... and not spelling in English.

Being able to win a spelling bee contest, or correctly pick grammatically correct English sentences is not at all useful nor indicative of an acquisition of a love of learning and discovery.  And it is the latter by which Thailand can be competitive and increase the quality of life as well for it's people.

The best sign of progress for Thailand would be to come in last place at regional spelling bees..... last place.  Being good at English spelling is a side skill acquired by using English... it should not be specifically aimed for... notwithstanding that doing so makes the ajarns job much easier in teaching and assessments (because spelling and grammar is easy to score as well as present)... and so Thailand has a supply of the top memorizers to become medical doctors [which is one of the next fields in which AI will replace humans.. but not nurses who talk to and take care of patients.. I thought I'd add that little rumination into this, just for fun].

And I am not just suggesting a different approach, it is actually all but the opposite of how the Thai education system currently works. So much so that personally I now cringe whenever I hear any of the following English words: teacher, ajarn, student and education.  

Copying someone else's work is not merely "bad behavior"... it is a process of pissing on originality, creativity and discovery.  It is wonderful for "teaching" obedience only (the English word is inculcating, by the way, not "teaching".... and the word for "teacher" as used in Thailand... indoctrinator sounds pretty darn apropro to me).  

In the very near future you will be able to use your smartphone to convert Central Thai (or any of the main Thai dialects) into any other spoken or written language... grammatically perfect and spelling as well.... without ever going to school... but a smartphone cannot change someone's cognitive and interpersonal skills nor their love of learning including a love of reading new and wider perspectives on life that is very difficult to achieve by travel alone... books are power packed at this.  And always will be. In fact, those will be the ONLY important skills in the very near future.... unlike in the past. MS already has an AI system that beats the best transcriptionists now.... they accomplished this just this year..... in 2016 .

Factory jobs and clerical jobs will be gone.  What will "teaching" obedience be good for? so people can obey.... like a computer or robot does? Guess what... the real ones won't need to eat, take breaks or even take a nap or daily sleep period.  And their spelling will be perfect as well as their pronunciation of any language.

 

[George Graham]

On 06/12/2016 at 1:29 PM, Johnniey said:

Obviously not a native English speaker.

What Scotchman with any sense would wish to be included in the native (English) speaker clannadh?

[Slip]

20 minutes ago, maewang99 said:

Thailand needs to teach a minimum of ****two**** subjects in English. And spelling isn't one of either of them. Speaking and listening to English, and reading and writing English have very little synergy with each other, unlike Thai.  In addition, original work which involves thinking, analysis and discovery skills, needs to be absolutely paramount over memorization, copying and "having the correct answer".  Contributing to class discussions, asking questions and answering question of others needs to be paramount over obedience and respect for the "teacher".  The teacher's role is to manage and encourage a classroom experience in which the students are actively thinking and discovering a love of learning.

For speaking and listening, students need to (i) listen (ii) think (iii) speak.  Originality and effort should be immediately rewarded. "Correct" pronunciation and "correct" responses are to be the lowest priority. 

For reading and writing, just like speaking and listening.  But it cannot be taught with any expectation that acquiring those skills are transferable to speaking and listening skills in English, notwithstanding that (1) this is not true for the Thai dialects such as Central Thai and (2) that this will require quite a lot of teacher resources (time and energy and effort on the part of the teaching staff)... and therefore if you cannot afford the added resources... stop teaching core subjects in the Thai dialect. 

This is what is required because English is two languages.  The written system has evolved for reading and writing, not for learning the spoken system.  As an aid to acquiring the speaking and listening skills, Thai graphemes should be considered more applicable (for study and even assessment in the classroom perhaps), or the IPA system.... but not English alphabet... and not spelling in English.

Being able to win a spelling bee contest, or correctly pick grammatically correct English sentences is not at all useful nor indicative of an acquisition of a love of learning and discovery.  And it is the latter by which Thailand can be competitive and increase the quality of life as well for it's people.

The best sign of progress for Thailand would be to come in last place at regional spelling bees..... last place.  Being good at English spelling is a side skill acquired by using English... it should not be specifically aimed for... notwithstanding that doing so makes the ajarns job much easier in teaching and assessments (because spelling and grammar is easy to score as well as present)... and so Thailand has a supply of the top memorizers to become medical doctors [which is one of the next fields in which AI will replace humans.. but not nurses who talk to and take care of patients.. I thought I'd add that little rumination into this, just for fun].

And I am not just suggesting a different approach, it is actually all but the opposite of how the Thai education system currently works. So much so that personally I now cringe whenever I hear any of the following English words: teacher, ajarn, student and education.  

Copying someone else's worse in not merely "bad behavior"... it is a process of pissing on originality, creativity and discovery.  It is wonderful for "teaching" obedience only (the English word is inculcating, by the way, not "teaching".... and the word for "teacher" as used in Thailand... indoctrinator sounds pretty darn apropro to me).  

In the very near future you will be able to use your smartphone to convert Thai (any of the Thai dialects) into any other spoken or wtitten language... grammatically perfect and spelling as well.... without ever going to school... but a smartphone cannot change someone's cognitive and interpersonal skills nor their love of learning including a love of reading new and wider perspectives on life that is very difficult to achieve by travel alone... books are power packed at this.  And always will be. In fact, those will be the ONLY important skills in the very near future.... unlike in the past.

Factory jobs an clerical jobs will be gone.   

 

You make some interesting points Mawaeng.  Unfortunately this thread has been taken over by someone with a specific agenda, which whilst on topic is hijacking the thread in an extremely distracting manner.  I hope we can see more posts like this.

[Slip]

To add a very quick response to Mawaeng's post.  Although the 'thinking student' idea is wonderful, it is the one that most students that I deal with are least comfortable with.  They would much rather copy from each other or a book for example, than ask questions, or give opinions.  I will try to add more later when I have had a chance to read your post in more detail.

 

[EnlightenedAtheist]

18 minutes ago, maewang99 said:

Thailand needs to teach a minimum of ****two**** subjects in English. And spelling isn't one of either of them. Speaking and listening to English, and reading and writing English have very little synergy with each other, unlike Thai.  In addition, original work which involves thinking, analysis and discovery skills, needs to be absolutely paramount over memorization, copying and "having the correct answer".  Contributing to class discussions, asking questions and answering question of others needs to be paramount over obedience and respect for the "teacher".  The teacher's role is to manage and encourage a classroom experience in which the students are actively thinking and discovering a love of learning.

For speaking and listening, students need to (i) listen (ii) think (iii) speak.  Originality and effort should be immediately rewarded. "Correct" pronunciation and "correct" responses are to be the lowest priority. 

For reading and writing, just like speaking and listening.  But it cannot be taught with any expectation that acquiring those skills are transferable to speaking and listening skills in English, notwithstanding that (1) this is not true for the Thai dialects such as Central Thai and (2) that this will require quite a lot of teacher resources (time and energy and effort on the part of the teaching staff)... and therefore if you cannot afford the added resources... stop teaching core subjects in the Thai dialect. 

This is what is required because English is two languages.  The written system has evolved for reading and writing, not for learning the spoken system.  As an aid to acquiring the speaking and listening skills, Thai graphemes should be considered more applicable (for study and even assessment in the classroom perhaps), or the IPA system.... but not English alphabet... and not spelling in English.

Being able to win a spelling bee contest, or correctly pick grammatically correct English sentences is not at all useful nor indicative of an acquisition of a love of learning and discovery.  And it is the latter by which Thailand can be competitive and increase the quality of life as well for it's people.

The best sign of progress for Thailand would be to come in last place at regional spelling bees..... last place.  Being good at English spelling is a side skill acquired by using English... it should not be specifically aimed for... notwithstanding that doing so makes the ajarns job much easier in teaching and assessments (because spelling and grammar is easy to score as well as present)... and so Thailand has a supply of the top memorizers to become medical doctors [which is one of the next fields in which AI will replace humans.. but not nurses who talk to and take care of patients.. I thought I'd add that little rumination into this, just for fun].

And I am not just suggesting a different approach, it is actually all but the opposite of how the Thai education system currently works. So much so that personally I now cringe whenever I hear any of the following English words: teacher, ajarn, student and education.  

Copying someone else's worse in not merely "bad behavior"... it is a process of pissing on originality, creativity and discovery.  It is wonderful for "teaching" obedience only (the English word is inculcating, by the way, not "teaching".... and the word for "teacher" as used in Thailand... indoctrinator sounds pretty darn apropro to me).  

In the very near future you will be able to use your smartphone to convert Thai (any of the Thai dialects) into any other spoken or wtitten language... grammatically perfect and spelling as well.... without ever going to school... but a smartphone cannot change someone's cognitive and interpersonal skills nor their love of learning including a love of reading new and wider perspectives on life that is very difficult to achieve by travel alone... books are power packed at this.  And always will be. In fact, those will be the ONLY important skills in the very near future.... unlike in the past.

Factory jobs an clerical jobs will be gone.   

 

 

I agree that Thai script should be used to teaching speaking/listening skills., but let's be clear it is going to delay the acquisition of writing and reading though. This is the reformists' point: that the spelling system is so inadequate that it forces teachers to use tricks like these which delays learning. Btw, one could use IPA to help learning English-speakers too. Still, again, it will delay learning to read and write.

 

We can patch the holes of the leaky boat with paper towels, then with cloth, then with cotton,... then with paper towels, then with cloth, and so on and so forth.  It might work if there is enough supply and we do it fast enough. The underlying issue is the poor spelling system. All other measures are dealing with the problem superficially and inefficiently.

[Slip]

5 minutes ago, George Graham said:

What Scotchman with any sense would wish to be included in the native (English) speaker clannadh?

 None that would refer to himself as a 'Scotchman'!

[EnlightenedAtheist]

4 minutes ago, Slip said:

You make some interesting points Mawaeng.  Unfortunately this thread has been taken over by someone with a specific agenda, which whilst on topic is hijacking the thread in an extremely distracting manner.  I hope we can see more posts like this.

 

And you don't have an agenda! LOL

 

Did you find anything erroneous in what I posted? Please demonstrate, instead of obfuscate.

[Slip]

9 minutes ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

And you don't have an agenda! LOL

 

Did you find anything erroneous in what I posted? Please demonstrate, instead of obfuscate.

I would welcome a rounded debate.  I take issue with posts of yours such as (presently numbered) 642 which spam the thread and make it extremely difficult to navigate easily.  While I recognise what you are trying to achieve I think it may be more appropriate if you could consider that your argument is not the be all and end all.  Perhaps you could try to use main points rather than massive swathes of examples.  You have a point- it has been heard, and to a greater or lesser extent taken on board.  There is no need to hijack the thread in the manner that you are.  Please be more considerate those with other approaches and ideas.  let them be heard.

 

Maewang99-

 

Your ideas are very interesting to me, and I agree with many of them, but I wonder at some of your comments a little.  If I may, can I add my perspective?

In brief, I teach English from two separate text books- The first ‘reading & writing’ the second ‘listening and speaking’ which are part of a series designed for such.  They both teach appropriate skills for the purpose- for example ‘listening for main ideas and details’ or ‘reading for main ideas and details’ respectively.  They both also encourage skills such as ‘note taking’, highlighting (only for R&W obviously), personal reaction (either verbal or written), categorisation, and the like.  I also teach a separate reading and writing course (without the benefit of a text book) in which I try to develop the students’ analytical and critical thinking skills through the use of literature.

It seems to me that many of the skills that I teach in these classes are (hopefully) transferable, and indeed mutually supportive.  Does that not fit with your experience?

(Apologies for spelling your name wrong more than once earlier- I was hoping to get a word in edgewise)

 

[balo]

26 pages of nonsense. 

 

[EnlightenedAtheist]

13 minutes ago, Slip said:

I would welcome a rounded debate.  I take issue with posts of yours such as (presently numbered) 642 which spam the thread and make it extremely difficult to navigate easily.  While I recognise what you are trying to achieve I think it may be more appropriate if you could consider that your argument is not the be all and end all.  Perhaps you could try to use main points rather than massive swathes of examples.  You have a point- it has been heard, and to a greater or lesser extent taken on board.  There is no need to hijack the thread in the manner that you are.  Please be more considerate those with other approaches and ideas.  let them be heard.

 

 

So, we can have a debate, but I am not allowed to show any evidence. Mmm! Why do I find the terms and conditions of yours rather problematic. No deal! 

 

The poster wrote an extensive essay, whose length you did/do not object to (and so it is fine), but you do object to mine, so it is too long. You cannot be serious. You speak with a forked-tongue. 

[EnlightenedAtheist]

Just now, balo said:

26 pages of nonsense. 

 

 

I disagree! There are more pages in the English dictionary!

[Slip]

2 minutes ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

So, we can have a debate, but I am not allowed to show any evidence. Mmm! Why do I find the terms and conditions of yours rather problematic. No deal! 

 

The poster wrote an extensive essay, whose length you did/do not object to (and so it is fine), but you do object to mine, so it is too long. You cannot be serious. You speak with a forked-tongue. 

It is posts such as the one I mentioned that I am objecting to.  Your views on spelling, whilst interesting, are not representative of all viewpoints on the issue. However you are using a posting style that dominates the available capital of the thread.  Please allow a free flowing discussion.  Perhaps you could post links to the more enormous examples that you are trying to show, some of which you have duplicated time and again throughout the thread.  

 

Some of the other longer posts are indeed challenging, but they have form and content which can be followed, unlike a massive list of words with differential highlighting.  I implore you to be more considerate of other posters.

 

[Richard W]

4 hours ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

On the other hand, there is also the incredible stupid idea of making speakers pronounce letters as the alphabet and the rules of the basic spelling system indicate. What were the Phoenicians, Mesopotamians, Egyptians, and the Canaanites thinking about? Backward, primitive people! Surely! LOL

You're doing these peoples an injustice.

 

Though, there is increasing evidence that the Western Semites (not sure it was actually the Phoenicians) couldn't really grasp Egyptian writing and resorted to the idea of no more than one different letter per sound.  To do them full credit, they did use 22 letters for 26 sounds, both before and after a 'reform' that changed which letters used the same letter, and they left vowels and gemination to the imagination.

 

As to the Mesopotamians, well, it seems that the Sumerians got overwhelmed by uncontrolled immigration. That allowed people to start using symbols for their sounds in fractions of words, especially Semitic words.  You are aware that phonetic symbols were CV, VC, or CVC with unspecified vowel, aren't you?  They kept things interesting in various ways - different symbols for the same sounds, and alternative sound sequences, frequently unrelated, for the same symbol.  However, they eventually relapsed in one respect, and started distinguishing voiced and voiceless initial consonants.  There is a concept of spelling, in that words have typical selections of symbols.

 

While the Egyptians did experiment with an abjad, they gave it up as a bad, Asiatic idea and kept to their system where a hieroglyph represented an idea or possibly its consonants.  Possibly you're confused because they often wrote out one of the consonants so that you would know which value was being used for a hieroglyph.  The Egyptians only started using an alphabet with vowels after the Macedonian conquest, when they started using the Greek alphabet to ensure the accurate pronunciation of spells.

 

It was the Greeks who invented the alphabet, and equipped it with a full set of features.  Accent type and vowel length were omitted (vowels eta and omega came later, and accents much later), digraphs with eta (sometimes transcribed as heta) were commonly used for the aspirated consonants, and of course the principle of using one letter to represent a sequence of phonemes (psi, ksi) was included.  Gamma seems to have been ambiguous from an early time.

 

Don't feel obliged to think off 1.5 billions |English as a foreign language learners who are trying to learn a shitty language (specifically its orthography) and who are accused of being dumb. Ignore and gloss over the millions of kids who struggle to learn to decode/read, and spell too. Where is the head-hitting-the-wall emoticon when you need one? 

Interesting.  I didn't think it was particularly spelling that caused EFL learners the major problems.  I thought it was the ill-documented rules on what words go together that caused the biggest problems.  Of course, Thais suffer from being at almost the opposite end of the landmass.

[EnlightenedAtheist]

34 minutes ago, Richard W said:

You're doing these peoples an injustice.

 

Interesting.  I didn't think it was particularly spelling that caused EFL learners the major problems.  I thought it was the ill-documented rules on what words go together that caused the biggest problems.  Of course, Thais suffer from being at almost the opposite end of the landmass.

 

There is alphabet (as in the alphabet used for European languages) and the idea of the alphabet! Sorry! You did not get it.

 

You do not like my attack on your beloved language, do you? Be honest at least! 

 

Interesting.  I didn't think it was particularly spelling that caused EFL learners the major problems.  I thought it was the ill-documented rules on what words go together that caused the biggest problems.  Of course, Thais suffer from being at almost the opposite end of the landmass."

 

Thinking and knowing (from experience) are two different notions. You've learned something today (if that is possible, of course! 

 

 

[EnlightenedAtheist]

18 minutes ago, Slip said:

It is posts such as the one I mentioned that I am objecting to.  Your views on spelling, whilst interesting, are not representative of all viewpoints on the issue. However you are using a posting style that dominates the available capital of the thread.  Please allow a free flowing discussion.  Perhaps you could post links to the more enormous examples that you are trying to show, some of which you have duplicated time and again throughout the thread.  

 

Some of the other longer posts are indeed challenging, but they have form and content which can be followed, unlike a massive list of words with differential highlighting.  I implore you to be more considerate of other posters.

 

 

Oh! You don't like my posting style! Ahahahahah! For the record, lest your forget, there are several posts where I wrote a list of causes on the topic. Did anyone say "Thank you!" Of course, not! Did anyone pick on it? Of course, not! Did you do such a thing? Of course, not. 

 

No, what you are objecting is the fact that I am able to reply with facts and arguments on every single points. Yes! You would like to sweep under the carpet the idea that the spelling system sucks and that is one of the major reasons Thais (but not just Thais) struggle to learn it well.

 

You find my posts too long! Ahahah! Others are okay! Lists are not! a little biased, are we? (The person talked about a rule that she felt could solve all of the problems. I demonstrated that this was not borne out by facts.  I am not going to write a one line link in response to a lengthy post. That would make it look like she is right. How many people do click on the link. I am saving the trouble, anyway. What is your problem?  You don;t like the attack on your precious language that you thought was all that? Sorry! You are hilarious! What's next? A gag order! I am forced to repeat points and I do seldom(ly) because some of the audience seems to need it, that's all! Maybe they should learn to acknowledge points . But that style you do not object to. 

 

 

[Richard W]

7 minutes ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

Interesting.  I didn't think it was particularly spelling that caused EFL learners the major problems.  I thought it was the ill-documented rules on what words go together that caused the biggest problems.  Of course, Thais suffer from being at almost the opposite end of the landmass."

 

Thinking and knowing (from experience) are two different notions. You've learned something today (if that is possible, of course! 

So are you asserting that English spelling is the EFL learner's major problem?  Now, it is an issue for ESOL learners, who acquire words through conversation and are in the same boat as native speakers.

 

There is also the group for whom reading (and possibly writing) is the relevant English skill.  They would be ill-served by needing a command of the stress rules, or more likely having to learn two forms of each Latinate word.  Possibly writing will be rescued by spell-checkers.

[Richard W]

1 minute ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

Oh! You don't like my posting style! Ahahahahah! For the record, lest your forget, there are several posts where I wrote a list of causes on the topic. Did anyone say "Thank you!" Of course, not! Did anyone pick on it? Of course, not! Did you do such a thing? Of course, not.

A lot of your replies are cutting and pasting of other material.  If they are on-line and accessible, pasting links would be better.  Otherwise, you are simply inviting "tl; dr" (= too long, didn't read) reactions.

[EnlightenedAtheist]

2 minutes ago, Richard W said:

A lot of your replies are cutting and pasting of other material.  If they are on-line and accessible, pasting links would be better.  Otherwise, you are simply inviting "tl; dr" (= too long, didn't read) reactions.

 

A lot? Other material? Are you kidding me? One would think you would not risk as this were to be wrong, it would hurt your reputation.

 

And guess what, Richard, you are wrong!

 

Well! I offered you to test that hypothesis and you did not take the offer! SOME of my replies are cutting and pasting from MY website! Oh! Shocking! It did not occur to you? What is your MO? Let's be frank you are in love with the English as it is. You are a teacher, a translator,. an owner of a tutoring agency, a school,... Since you are starting to annoy me with your baseless innuendos  and your inability to learn , I will demonstrate. It is posted here. Let me guess that you are old and you think you know it all. Let me demonstrate that you are erring one more time.

 

From regularizing English: http://reforming-english.blogspot.com/p/finglish.html

 

 

See the last paragraph! Explain that magic trick to me, smart man.

 

I rest my case. 

 

Now, can we talk about the topic? The reasons why Thais' mastery of English is so abysmal! 

 

We have learned to day class that it is has little to do with Thais screwing up! It is --in fact-- about  the Commonwealth, the smart, proud, and educated leaders and citizens of the Commonwealth who have not addressed the underlying issue, screwing up and for 250 years to fix the grand language. Oh! No! And I wonder why my views are not well "received" ... pronunciation! LOL Now, you can all try to shoot the messenger.

 

Was my post too long? Did you like my style? Sorry for cutting and pasting! LOL

 

 

 

 

[EnlightenedAtheist]

19 minutes ago, Slip said:

Oh dear.  Can you get your head around a metaphor or is that not quite regimented enough for you?  Imagine this is a thread about whether the death penalty is a bad thing.  You wish to take up the thread with how long the drop should be on a hangman's rope, complete with minute analysis of the effects of swinging from a height of from 1 cm to 1 km.  It is boring and does not add to the debate in any way.  

 

The post of yours that I specifically objected to (no. 602 I think) contained 3052 unconnected words.  If you were as clever as you think you are you would realise that as a block of text that is meaningless and counter-productive to any kind of understanding.

 

 

 

On top of that you misrepresent the actual problems suffered by Thai students in Thailand, who can spell most basic words quite well.  You ignore the development of more broad based skills, the difficulty in encouraging them, and the benefits of mastering them, all so you can whine on about your precious eze English system post after post, ad nauseam day after day.  

 

 

 

You have also attacked other posters who don't agree with you more than once, and posted off-top photos and videos.  This latest from you is a barely coherent rant.

 

 

I am truly sorry that nobody here thanked you for showing them the one true way as you see it.  Perhaps they just didn’t agree with you?

 

 

 

Fair enough.  I'm bored of you stifling meaningful debate.  I shall merely report the posts you have made that I consider to be off topic or aggressive and then put you on ignore.  Good luck in your off-topic crusade. Enlightened my backside.

 

 

Or perhaps you cannot read and connect the dots. The list was a comprehensive list of words that did not adhere to the magic-e rule. It was obvious that this person had not bothered going to the website where that information had been provided for her to see. The evidence was presented. One cannot show evidence now. You have some nerves.

 

I am ranting?  I am attacking people? I have been more than patience. 

 

Your comment is BASELESS as I have explained to you that I have posted at list three times a list of all of the possible causes presented by the TV posters on this topic, something that you have not done. Please do show me ONE TV poster who has ever done this. ONE. I am waiting. I have presented my case, tenaciously and with evidence. That you do not lack the evidence is your problem.

 

I am tired of having to read such lies.

 

When you cannot win an argument, report.

 

Bravo! If you cannot win the argument, first let him know that he cannot 

[Richard W]

1 hour ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

Long and short vowels

English has a unique and rather complex system for showing whether the vowels  a,  i,  o,  u  (and e partly too) are long or short, as in:
       flat, flatten – inflate;   hem, hemmed – theme;  hid, hidden – hide;  dot, dotty – dote;  tub, tubby – tube. 
When a,  e,  i,  o  and  u  are followed by just one consonant, or several consonants and a vowel, they are 'closed' and  are supposed to have a short sound, as in:
       am, ample,   ten, tender,    pin, pinked,   drop, droplet,   bun, bunting.       

Why do spelling reformers utter untruths so often?  Is it uncontrolled hyperbole leading to lying, or is it ignorance?  The English system is not unique; it is shared with German, and for pretty much the same historical reason, a parallel development in English and German.

 

The account seemed unaware of two old rules that are increasingly ignored in new words:

 

1) Do not double 'v'.

2) A native word does not end in 'u' , 'v' or 'i' unless it means 'you' or 'I'.

 

The other rule is that one only tampers with the Latin spelling at the end of a word.  That is a rule that causes great difficulty for palatable spelling reform.

 

I'm reluctant to cite antepenultimate shortening, as its precise limits are unclear.

[Richard W]

1 hour ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

A lot? Other material? Are you kidding me? One would think you would not risk as this were to be wrong, it would hurt your reputation.

 

And guess what, Richard, you are wrong!

 

Well! I offered you to test that hypothesis and you did not take the offer! SOME of my replies are cutting and pasting from MY website!

As you appear to have been given permission to promote your website by referencing it, all the more reason to refer to pages (though I'd prefer 'fragments') on it rather than just cut and paste from it.

[William C F Pierce]

On 16/12/2016 at 1:21 AM, Loeilad said:

And I think you need to read up on your English.....

I go by the basic rules I was taught at school and I do not to need to learn to misuse a word that has a specific meaning. I think you are the one that needs to learn to use a dictionary. Perhaps then your own English comprehension might be better.

 

[Richard W]

6 hours ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

There is alphabet (as in the alphabet used for European languages) and the idea of the alphabet! Sorry! You did not get it.

It took me a long time to understand this statement.  Perhaps I still do not understand it, for my understanding of it implies that you do not understand the nature of the technical term alphabet.  Vowels are rather important to the concept - the significant problems with English spelling relate to vowels.  Irritatingly, the Phoenicians did not in any way record vowels until after the Greek alphabet had come into use for Greek.  Because it does not include vowels, the Phoenician 'alphabet' is technically described as an abjad.  The Mesopotamian system, cuneiform, is no more an alphabet then is either of the Japanese syllabaries.  I think it is quite clear that you've never tried, at least, with any hope of success, to read real Egyptian text written in Egyptian hieroglyphs.

 

Thai is written in an abugida.  Tellingly, if one asks about the Thai 'alphabet', one is liable to be told about the 42/44/46 consonants, and has to inquire further to learn about the vowel and tone marks.  Abugidas arose later than the Greek alphabet.

 

Almost all alphabets are related to the Greek alphabet.  A few other writing systems have graduated to that status, such as Mongolian (but only if you don't look too closely at the symbols), Lao (though the layout of the symbols reveals that it is basically an abugida without a default vowel sound) and the Hebrew script for Yiddish (though it is clearly an abjad with sufficient obligatory vowel marking).  Hangul was invented as an alphabet disguised to look like an enormous syllabary.  If vowels matter, then the first alphabet was the Greek alphabet.

[Loeilad]

16 hours ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

Is this your take on spelling and spelling reform or the view of David Crystal? If the latter, I assume you endorse this. Right?

Correct...it is a bit long to read but I think my gist is clear 

 

 

 

 

"there, it is because the English Empire spread to many countries whose population had to adopt it or so an interest in doing so (financial)."

 

this shows a fundamentally flawed understanding of why EL is used on a world scale