University teaching shows why Thais' command of English is so abysmal!

[George Graham]

6 hours ago, Johnniey said:

What is it a technical/vocational college?

I worked in a Thai university for over 10 years and all the teachers in the English department spoke impeccable English as many of them had PhD's from English universities. They had all studied to a Master's degree level abroad. 

 

The only mistake I often heard was that they used "ever" as in "I ever been to Spain".

 

Who cares if the Thai word "koy" is misspelled? I know many so called Thai speakers who think this word means "have" or "used to", as in "I have been there", "I have eaten it before". 

There was even a poster here years ago called, "ajarn", who had been learning Thai for many years didn't know this Thai word meaning "not very".

 

But go ahead all you people living in Thailand, who can't communicate in Thai, and criticize the Thais ability at speaking English as after all they should, shouldn't they?

So my fellow Scotlander, they all spoke impeccable English and had PhDs from English universities. Not true. Studying to masters level is NOT a PhD. And "I ever been to Spain." Is not impeccable English. And finally "koy"...that could mean pinky. Love to converse with you on the thai language forum.

[rabas]

2 hours ago, rebo said:

Not true. You won't be able to  pronounce more than 80% of Thai words correctly if you don't know how they have to be pronounced. Many of these words have their roots in Sanskrit/Pali language. 

Point taken. However, the point stands that the official written Thai is intended as a phonetically correct representation of the language. Most Sanskrit/Pali exceptions (Suvarnabhumi, consonant clusters etc) also follow rules. which are taught in school and some language references. But yeah, mention of Sanskrit/Pali can cause Thai headaches.

 

Not pronouncing L and R and some other problems are not excepetions, they're just wrong and have  drawn Royal intervention.   Lol, people are so busy criticizing Thai's English, maybe it's their Thai....

 

Disclosure: I flunked phonetics in American grade school.

[George Graham]

5 hours ago, Loeilad said:

The premise is a false syllogism.

however one can give a couple of examples one humorous and the other a bit more serious.

1! - The school text book that declares quite clearly in black and white an exercise based around the phrase "go to shopping"

 

2 - the TOEFL-style EL course "devised" by one of Thailand's top uni that basically plagiarises TOEFL itself and has some of the worst dialogue recordings I've ever heard. Further investigation revealed the course to be "devised" by a native English speaker who clearly wasn't recognise that he/she has a speak impediment......how the hell Uni students were expected to learn from that is beyond me.

 

 

it seems that the foreign "experts" that Thailand employs to teach them English are far from what they claim to be.

 

 

Your grasp of logic is far from what you would wish us to believe. "The premise is a false syllogism" - embarrassing.

[suthnuh]

7 hours ago, Charlie1 said:

I noticed that many Thais try to speak a not understandable "American English". They should be taught only by UK native speakers - the teachers, I mean.

 

You are assuming "UK native speakers" also speak "proper" English. I think you are referring to Queen's English, and not the regional UK dialects? I'm from the USA, and I've had friends from all over the UK, and various areas within England. When they go into their local tongues no one from outside their county can follow. Let's agree that there are aspects of English that are universal for all countries where English is the native tongue. (crisp, chip, fries, biscuit, cookie, lift, fag, elevator, bonnet, hood, boot, trunk, etc. notwithstanding). The point is to have a native English speaker with a grasp of proper, grammatical English teaching the teachers.

 

When I lived in Thailand I joined a scuba diving group. I was the only regular from the USA. The regular group had a Brit, a Scot, an Irishman, a Welshman,  and a Kiwi (NZ). We'd all go drinking after a day of diving. At then end of the night we'd head back to the hotel, and they'd all tell me how glad they were I'd joined the group. I'd ask, "Why?" They'd all laugh and say, "because 1, you buy a lot of rounds; and 2, after 4 or 5 of them you're the only bloke we can all understand!"   (the accents get pretty heavy as the drinks build up)

 

Cheers mate. 

[Khon Kaen Dave]

When i arrived in Bkk the first time 16 years ago,i booked in at the Asia Hotel.At the reception desk,i was given the usual check in form to fill out.I did so.On the part where it asked what my religion was, i put Christian.The check in lady 9who spoke reasonable English said i had made a mistake,i should have put 'Christianity'I,of course tried to explain that I was a Christian and the practice of the religion was Christianity.She told me quite simply that,although she had never been to England,but her sisters friend was married to an Englishman and he was most definitely a Christianity.No amount of explaining would change her mind.It was then that i first realised that i was in for a very amusing time.

[pookiki]

15 minutes ago, rabas said:

Point taken. However, the point stands that the official written Thai is intended as a phonetically correct representation of the language. Most Sanskrit/Pali exceptions (Suvarnabhumi, consonant clusters etc) also follow rules. which are taught in school and some language references. But yeah, mention of Sanskrit/Pali can cause Thai headaches.

 

Not pronouncing L and R and some other problems are not excepetions, they're just wrong and have  drawn Royal intervention.   Lol, people are so busy criticizing Thai's English, maybe it's their Thai....

 

Disclosure: I flunked phonetics in American grade school.

For a language to be 'phonetic' each letter in the alphabet must be linked to only one 'phoneme'.  This is hardly the case in Thai as there are many exceptions.  As I said before, Spanish is much more phonetic.

[The Deerhunter]

8 hours ago, pookiki said:

All from Liverpool, right?

Aw! Throw in one from Manchester and a Yorkie or two, just for fun.    Also at least one from Zumerzet.  What about a Cockney market "barrow boy" from the East End of London, or his "trouble and strife"?

[Slip]

4 hours ago, atyclb said:

an extremely common error is "I'm work" I'm live" and they dont seem to learn and correct the error.

There are a number of these:

 

The one you mention- the use of the verb 'to be' along with another verb; the omission of the 's'/ 'es' on third personal singular; the use of have (as opposed to 'there are') without a subject (e.g on describing a scene- 'have 2 people'), and a number of others which I have been battling on a daily basis for years now .

 

The problem comes down to what is known as fossilisation (from when the students learnt from non-native speakers,) or an attempt to translate directly from Thai.  It is frustrating, but these are errors of accuracy not fluency, and such utterances are still easy to understand.

 

Meanwhile I have a theory about the 'abysmal' command of English in this country.  Please see below an advert from today for a national university: 

 

I am posting this ad on behalf of ******* University.
Please note that the University accepts applications between December 06-21, 2016. Shortlisted and qualified candidates will be invited for an interview and demo on December 26, 2016.
Please contact the University directly with further inquiries.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Department of Western Languages (****** University) Now Hiring!!!
The Department of Western Languages at ****** University is urgently recruiting 3 full-time teaching positions (1 Bachelor or Master’s degree holder; and 2 Masters’ or Ph.D. degree holders) to start in January of 2017.
Instructors are responsible for teaching an array of topics in English Studies, Business English and English in Education.
The Department is therefore seeking prospective candidates with education and teaching experience in:
English Studies; Business Administration; International Business Communication; Applied Linguistics; English as Second Language; American Literature, etc.
Candidates from other disciplines will be considered provided they hold an English teaching certificate (TEFL/TESOL/CELTA/DELTA)
Requirements:
- Applicants must be NATIVE English Speakers from US, UK, 
Canada, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand or South Africa
- Candidates must hold a Bachelor/Master’s/Ph.D. degree from an 
accredited University
- Candidates must exhibit at least one year of teaching experience 
in one or more areas mentioned above
- TEFL / TESOL certificate is mandatory
Contract type:
- 1 year contract (renewable)
- Compensation: 25,000-35,000 THB/ Month for Bachelor, Master’s 
& Ph.D., respectively. This compensation package is based on at 
least 15 hours of teaching time per week 
- Assistance with visa & work permit is provided
- Health insurance is provided through University programs
Required Documents:
• Resume with a recent picture attached
• Original & Copy of passport 
• Original & Copy of degree(s)
• Original & Copy of transcripts
• Original & Copy of teaching certificate (TEFL/TESOL)
Please forward your application and scanned copies of required documents to the Department of Western Languages at ******@hotmail.com. (Original documents are required at the time of the interview).
Please contact us with your questions or comments on 
******
We would like to thank you for your interest in joining our progressive Department at******University.

 

[pookiki]

I was born in the USA -- the Midwest where we like to think we speak uninflected English. After joining the Army, I was exposed to other Americans from the south, creoles from Louisiana, etc.  After completing basic training, I was stationed at a detachment where the commanding NCO was from Georgia (USA).  I was going on leave for the Christmas holiday and I had to sign out on the detachment's log book which was outside the NCO's office.  He looked at me and asked me to step into his office.  He looked at me and said (to my ear), "Corporal, are you going to sign out and leave ass?"  I replied, "Of course first sergeant, I'm going to sign out and leave ass as fast as I can."  The same question was asked with the same reply two more times.  He asked one last time and pointed to my pants. It was only then that I realized that he was saying 'levis' not 'leave ass'. 

[T_Dog]

You need to look at the goals of the education ministers to find out why English language is not a priority.  

https://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2014/11/23/a-meeting-of-totalitarian-minds/

[Shawn0000]

11 minutes ago, pookiki said:

I was born in the USA -- the Midwest where we like to think we speak uninflected English. After joining the Army, I was exposed to other Americans from the south, creoles from Louisiana, etc.  After completing basic training, I was stationed at a detachment where the commanding NCO was from Georgia (USA).  I was going on leave for the Christmas holiday and I had to sign out on the detachment's log book which was outside the NCO's office.  He looked at me and asked me to step into his office.  He looked at me and said (to my ear), "Corporal, are you going to sign out and leave ass?"  I replied, "Of course first sergeant, I'm going to sign out and leave ass as fast as I can."  The same question was asked with the same reply two more times.  He asked one last time and pointed to my pants. It was only then that I realized that he was saying 'levis' not 'leave ass'. 

 

Sign out and Levis, what did he mean?

[pookiki]

1 minute ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Sign out and Levis, what did he mean?

Sign out 'in levis' which I heard to be 'and leave ass'.  

[gemguy]

They have it all the wrong.

The should test them with riddles and conundrums:

 

How much wood can a Woodchuck chuck when a Woodchuck does chuck wood.

And when that Woodchuck chucks that wood then how fast would that Woodchuck chuck that wood.

 

Once they get past that then everything else is a breeze......lol

 

Cheers

[pookiki]

1 minute ago, gemguy said:

They have it all the wrong.

The should test them with riddles and conundrums:

 

How much wood can a Woodchuck chuck when a Woodchuck does chuck wood.

And when that Woodchuck chucks that wood then how fast would that Woodchuck chuck that wood.

 

Once they get past that then everything else is a breeze......lol

 

Cheers

Actually, one of the best children's books to use to get students to have good English enunciation is Dr. Suess' book 'Oh Say Can You Say' -- it's on You Tube.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and inflammatory posts and replies have been removed. 

[SiSePuede419]

It says the "frequent" mistake is "Are you an England?" but the correct version should be "Are you and England?".

 

I take it that English is not the native language of the person who wrote this sentence.  A'ight. ?

 

I'm trying to think of a context where "Are you and England" would be correct, 555

 

[SiSePuede419]

15 minutes ago, pookiki said:

Sign out 'in levis' which I heard to be 'and leave ass'.  

Your mind was focused on one thing, obviously. ?

[dslocum]

8 hours ago, pookiki said:

All from Liverpool, right?

I'd vote Cockney or Oz.  At least you'd get some pretty colo(u)rful phrases and metaphors while simultaneously laughing at the bad grammar! 

[Scott]

In the past I taught English to a varied range of students, from the beginner level (as young as 3 all the way up to adults), the grade level I was most familiar with was grade 2 and all of the Mathyom levels.   My primary responsibility in the past several years has been administrative and included supervising foreign teachers.   

 

It was not uncommon for a Thai English teacher to argue a grammar point on one of the Native Speaker's exams.   The exams written by Native speakers was then proof read by the Thai side who changed things.   It then went to the Director and she would make further changes.   Because of the face situation, no one dared to explain to the Director that such things as 'was die' is not correct.   If she said it was correct, it was correct. 

 

I advised teachers not to sign the exam until it was correct (they had to be signed and approved by the teacher before being copied).  

 

The structure of Thai society makes what should be simple, difficult to deal with.  

[George Graham]

5 hours ago, au82tiger said:

Charlie1 is obviously not educated well enough to understand an educated American speaking.  Not all Brits are like that thank goodness.  I would compare my language skills and in fact my educational background to his at any time.  I'm sure he'd be embarrassed by that comparison.  As President Elect Donald Trump would say: "Charlie1... you're fired!

I think anybody who wants to learn English should learn with me - 1514 baht per hour.

[pookiki]

19 minutes ago, Scott said:

In the past I taught English to a varied range of students, from the beginner level (as young as 3 all the way up to adults), the grade level I was most familiar with was grade 2 and all of the Mathyom levels.   My primary responsibility in the past several years has been administrative and included supervising foreign teachers.   

 

It was not uncommon for a Thai English teacher to argue a grammar point on one of the Native Speaker's exams.   The exams written by Native speakers was then proof read by the Thai side who changed things.   It then went to the Director and she would make further changes.   Because of the face situation, no one dared to explain to the Director that such things as 'was die' is not correct.   If she said it was correct, it was correct. 

 

I advised teachers not to sign the exam until it was correct (they had to be signed and approved by the teacher before being copied).  

 

The structure of Thai society makes what should be simple, difficult to deal with.  

One of the basic rules in all language instruction is to always defer to the native speaker.  I can't understand what that concept is so difficult. Go figure!

[Scott]

Just now, pookiki said:

One of the basic rules in all language instruction is to always defer to the native speaker.  I can't understand what that concept is so difficult. Go figure!

Those with some status here, defer to no one.   I sometimes had to try to delicately explain that a particular construct was not how it was used.   I avoided telling those further up the food chain that it was wrong, even though it was.  

 

The Director had some correspondence that went out in English, which I would write and she would then 'correct'.   I would explain that she could send it her way, if she wanted to (it was her signature on it), but that it was not the best way to say it.   One example was where I had written that someone 'was dead', she insisted that it should be 'was die'.  

[kowpot]

My niece is studying English in the university.  She says she cannot understand the teacher from the UK but can understand better the one from Texas in the USA.  She says, the one from the UK always sounds like he is mumbling.

[Shawn0000]

1 minute ago, kowpot said:

My niece is studying English in the university.  She says she cannot understand the teacher from the UK but can understand better the one from Texas in the USA.  She says, the one from the UK always sounds like he is mumbling.

 

Perhaps he is, whats the relevance?

[sawadeeken]

3 hours ago, Johnniey said:

Also penis pizza sizes, car tyres and nails  to name a few.

I knew a Thai woman years ago who pronounced 'peanuts' as 'penis'......

In addition to not having a lot of luck with r's the Thais have a problem with L's........... If it is in the middle of the word it seems to be omitted, if it is at the end of a word it is usually converted to an N sound..... a good example is 'central', pronounced by Thai's as 'centran'...............

[Shawn0000]

6 minutes ago, Scott said:

Those with some status here, defer to no one.   I sometimes had to try to delicately explain that a particular construct was not how it was used.   I avoided telling those further up the food chain that it was wrong, even though it was.  

 

The Director had some correspondence that went out in English, which I would write and she would then 'correct'.   I would explain that she could send it her way, if she wanted to (it was her signature on it), but that it was not the best way to say it.   One example was where I had written that someone 'was dead', she insisted that it should be 'was die'.  

 

That's half way to the street English we are hearing now in the UK, as in someone "was dieded", errors can come right with time.

[pookiki]

5 minutes ago, Scott said:

Those with some status here, defer to no one.   I sometimes had to try to delicately explain that a particular construct was not how it was used.   I avoided telling those further up the food chain that it was wrong, even though it was.  

 

The Director had some correspondence that went out in English, which I would write and she would then 'correct'.   I would explain that she could send it her way, if she wanted to (it was her signature on it), but that it was not the best way to say it.   One example was where I had written that someone 'was dead', she insisted that it should be 'was die'.  

I worked in several situations with other English speakers writing official memos, legal documents, reports, etc.  In the situation where reports were written, there was a 'style guide'. For the legal matters, we relied upon the book "Elements of Style" - an excellent resource. Nonetheless, we would still have very heated arguments on style, syntax, and correct grammar usage - punctuation in particular. I cannot fathom, in my wildest dreams, deferring to a non-native speaker on such matters.  Guess I wouldn't last long in the Thai system.

[George Graham]

4 hours ago, Bule gila said:

A dialect is not a language - it is a variety of a language and consists of a localised group [regional, social and/or ethnicity] using an evolved version which is mutually intelligible to them. All languages have dialects and they all have a standard version. Understand?

A language is a dialect with a bigger army and navy. Yes absolutely true.

[EnlightenedAtheist]

I do not wish to add fuel to the fire, but why aren't all of the posters that are absolutely shocked at the dreadful state of English teaching not absolutely shocked at the dreadful state of the English spelling system? Could this explain that, to loosely quote Hugo?

 

Consider:

 

 

(At the top of the circle you have letters that are represented below by their phonemes or sounds (using / /) . For instance, the /i:/ or sound /i:/ can have different spellings (“eo” as in “people” for instance).

 

/ə/: (13)  about, children, pencil, renovate, supply, syringe, luscious, mission, blood, does, cousin, thorough, and especially. (Even “one” or o_e could be included as it is pronounced “wun”. but, I like the numerical pattern. LOL That's the only think that is easy to remember. LOL)

/ei/: (12) great, raid, grey, gray, ballet, mate, table, caffe, matine, reggae, vein, vain

/ɛ/: (11) bear, care, aerial, their, there, questionnaire, mayor, bury, any, friend, leopard

/i:/: (10) be, been, bean, key, mere, elite, people, ski, debris, quay

 

While it is true that not all words are spelled irregularly, research from Masha Bell on 7000 common words reveals that about 1/3 causes reading or pronunciation difficulties and 1/2 causes spelling issues. There are 1 million words in the lexicon at last count. Given that almost every word in the lexicon has at least one of those unmarked schwas (since it has 13 or so spellings making it impossible to detect) and given that |English is a word stress language (it is irregular),  is it ANY surprise that people can't learn to read, spell, and pronounce English? And this is not just about foreigners, it is also native-speakers who must use spell checkers and pay for tutoring lessons to help with decoding and reading.

 

 

Are all of those English-native children dumb? Are all of those English-speaking teachers incompetent? Or is it that the system is dumb and incompetent as a teaching tool because, make no mistake about it, reading is what underpins most learning. Make the system so chaotic and very few can really move up the ladder. But, this is not so much about being able to read and write/spell, as much as how quickly can one learn to do so. It takes 3 more years for students to learn to decode just a few thousands of words whereas Spanish and Finnish kids can do that with their spelling system in 6 months (with all of the lexicon). If you want to mitigate the issue, pack extra literacy teachers in schools, buy tablets for every child,... and ask taxpayers to foot the bill OR don't and let the poorer ones fall through the cracks, selling drugs and mugging you OR going to jail all costs borne by you the taxpayers. Let's not talk about the kids who are labeled disabled. How is his or her self-esteem during choral reading. What is weirder is that most kids can write and read after they have learned the alphabet. With 26 letters and the lack of regularity in the system, most will have to learn English like some learn Chinese. Sad, but true! 

 

Illiteracy rates are at all time highs as they have been for quite a while. Consider this study https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-e328bc737513324b2e33b2b66cfecb10?convert_to_webp=true and another (http://www.oecd.org/edu/ceri/35562310.pdf) and another (https://www.ualberta.ca/science/science-news/2016/august/sorry-chomsky-english-spelling-is-hardly-close-to-optimal) and another (http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED360613.pdf), etc. There are more, but one should be able to connect the dots. Should, but for 250 years nothing has been done. Why should Thais listen to English-speakers telling them to clean up their act?

 

But, there are solutions. There is a Spelling society that would like to improve things (http://spellingsociety.org/international-english-spelling-congress). Don't think this is one of those empty webs. There are too many people with PhDs to list. 

 

In fairness, there are many excuses that can be used to "laissez faire", as it were. Too many different dialects some wil raise. This is not about a phonemic reform as much as it is a reform that would remove ambiguity and irregularity. It will cost a lot. Actually, it will save a lot. Finnish kids who are at the top of PISA tests start going to school at age 7. Will I and you have to learn the new code? NO. It should be done starting at the Grade 1 level in schools. Who will decide what new code we will use? See ESS. But, what about English 1.0 texts? Have you heard of Google digital books, and the Gutenberg project? Did you know that any countries have had spellng reforms. They cannot be all stupid. Free trancoding progams could do the rest. No need to change road signs btw. The first generation will be bicodal.

 

For more info and ALL POSSIBLE rebutals: http://reforming-english.blogspot.com/

 

We could always wait for the Chinese to decide? Or would you prefer Esperanto to be taught in all schools of the Commonwealth as a second-language?

 

When did you upgrade your computer system? 250 years ago.

 

Isn't it time to fess up?

 

English is a ;lingua franca. With status comes responsibility. 

[Songlaw]

9 hours ago, Charlie1 said:

I noticed that many Thais try to speak a not understandable "American English". They should be taught only by UK native speakers - the teachers, I mean.

 

This is astounding on so many levels. Where, pray tell, do you hail from sailor? Have you even been to the UK?