Bangkok police have doubts over Australian woman's rape claim

[impulse]

47 minutes ago, sweatalot said:

Victim?

Be careful with using this term until you know the truth

 

I'm not making an argument for the facts in this case.  I don't know who's telling the truth.

 

My point is about a system that seems to deliberately put burdens, both financial and psychological on any foreigner who seeks justice for a crime perpetrated on them.  Aside from being unfair to that particular foreigner, it leaves criminals on the streets to victimize even more people.

 

In addition to the cost of staying in country (and away from work) for the manhunt and waiting (2 weeks in this case) for the evidence, there's the cost of flying back to Thailand to testify if it goes to trial.  Then there's the unquantifiable risk of the victim being harmed by the perpetrator or someone else on behalf of the perpetrator.  

 

And in this case (as in others), the police have added the bonus of a veiled threat of prosecution for falsely reporting a crime.  With "falsely reporting" determined by entities with a pretty bad reputation for corruption, and under a lot of outside pressures to defend the reputation of Thailand tourism.  In other cases, it's a threat of prosecution for defamation.  Either of which would serve as a pretty good incentive to flee the country long before the case goes to trial.  Which has the affect of leaving criminals on the streets to victimize even more foreigners because they found out it's pretty easy to get away with it.

 

All of which is why I'd gladly kick a little money into a GoFundMe campaign to help offset the cost of keeping her safe while proceeding with the case to get the rapists off the streets.  (And if they prove she's lying, she'd still be in the country to prosecute her, right?)

 

 

[George Graham]

7 hours ago, jaltsc said:

 "...they would not know for two weeks..."

Two weeks for a DNA test to return. However, there are other signs of rape.   Tests to check for tears,  semen & STDs are available in a much shorter time.

 

But first they need to check in with TAT to see how they can cast suspicion on the victim, so there wouldn't be any loss in tourism. 

The speed of the DNA testing in Thailand seems to depend on the nature of the case.

[kingstonkid]

OK Let's for get the hyperbole.

 

Here are the facts.

 

A young Aussie lady came to thailand.  Which the Aussie media has from what we read here done a good job of painting a scarey picture.

 

She comes from what we read alone.  

Goes out to some dance clubs and or bars and ties on a good one.

She then according to her gets a tuk tuk home.

 

She is then raped by a Thai tuk tuk driver and his friend.

9 hours ago, rooster59 said:

five had gone in the further direction where the alleged crime took place. 

 

Only 5 drivers.  OK

They have some CCTV footage that they can check to follow her travels as well as talking to the bar staff and different clubs in the area that might have seen or served her.

 

There is no mention of her having a job back in Aus and her age would lead me to believe there is the possiblity she is a student.

 

Does this happen only in Thailand and would she be safer somewhere else??

 

If you are american or Aussie or Canadian ask yourself that question while you think of Spring Break.

[sweatalot]

1 hour ago, farcanell said:

 

Medical proffessionals determined rape... there is the proof

 

unproven yet, is who did it, and given her state of inebriation, it's fair to cast aspersions on who she said did it.... this will be cleared up once (if) the DNA results are completed.

 

there is no proof

medical professionals cannot determine rape

(except if there are typical injuries that cannot be self inflicted. Nothing is said about this and I doubt they have even been looking or injuries - or do you mean the burns from the wok?)

 

they can only find sperm in the vagina - which is proof for sex - not proof for rape

[Wilsonandson]

1 hour ago, Old Croc said:

I actually use my own sense of recall when I make a statement like this. I don't rely on a friend of a friend to tell me what to say, whatever the system may be in deepest Isaan. And I don't tell lies on Thaivisa, unlike many others.

I could find links in the local news services about this, but have no inclination to look on your behalf. 

Then without a link it's still hearsay. Don't tell lies on Thaivisa? Is that part of the rules. This is a web forum about the Thai news not CNN. The general public who ever can join and comment. No lie detector test given. We're not journalists, just people discussing the Thai news in English. Netizen is it called?

[Wake Up]

4 minutes ago, sweatalot said:

 

there is no proof

medical professionals cannot determine rape

(except if there are typical injuries that cannot be self inflicted. Nothing is said about this and I doubt they have even been looking or injuries - or do you mean the burns from the wok?)

 

they can only find sperm in the vagina - which is proof for sex - not proof for rape

Call me crazy but I tend to believe getting your clothes ripped off in the bushes while drunk and having sex with two strangers who leave you in the bushes is rape. ?

[Lex Talionis]

I'm sure this must mean something 

[Usual Suspect]

When is this poor lady due to fly home..??

 Because everyone concerned in this case will be counting down the days.. the new Thai logic to any Tourist-related crime is to string it out till the victim/s leave... Case closed!

[narak34]

8 hours ago, jaltsc said:

However, there are other signs of rape.   Tests to check for tears,  semen & STDs are available in a much shorter time.

 

That you can somehow test for rape from tears is a dangerous myth. They did a study in Copenhagen about this. Normal vaginal sex also causes tears. Unfortunately there are men in prison sentenced only due this pseudo science. 

[smotherb]

10 hours ago, worgeordie said:

2 weeks to confirm if she had been raped or not,surely it should

not take that long,maybe hoping she will leave Thailand and it

will all be forgotten.

regards worgeordie

Can anyone tell me how they can determine rape?   Sex, rough sex, yes; but rape?

[LazySlipper]

10 hours ago, sanemax said:

 

   The Police didnt threaten her with a counter claim though . They seem to be saying that they will wait until the investigation is complete before they decide how to proceed 

 

 

From where I stand, " charges of false reporting against the Australian tourist have not been ruled out. "  is a clear notice of intent. Consequently a warning and very possibly a threat.

[SiSePuede419]

Hmmmm, I wonder if it's risky for Farang to get very, very drunk and stay out late at night?

 

I'm sure Farang not responsible for bad decisions.  Other people's fault ?

[Si Thea01]

Is this story just poor reporting or are the police, in this instance, being inept.  I will praise them when it's due, however, a number of things concern me.  The victim has reported being raped, so the matter must be fully investigated before her version can be either proven or discounted.  It was initially reported that rape had been established by an examination at a hospital. 

 

If this is correct, and a rape test kit was used at the time of the initial examination, it can be established that forcible sex had occurred, however, the next step is to take DNA for possible confirmation and identification of offenders, should any be apprehended.  The latter takes some time, a couple weeks at the minimum, yet this is where is gets confusing as they're(police) are alleging they are waiting on rape test results.  Maybe this relates to DNA but given the standard of reporting in this matter, who would know.

 

 They have interviewed 5 persons who were in the immediate area and that they and their vehicles were being thoroughly investigated.  I hope that includes DNA from each person, which, when all the relevant tests that should have been undertaken and the results are forthcoming, those results can either establish someone's involvement or absolve them from any involvement.  Now they're on about a charge of false reporting not being ruled out.  Given that their investigation is incomplete then they are being premature in signifying that this could be a possibility. 

 

if the incident occurred as stated, and at this time, it appears there is no evidence to suggest it did not, then the amount of stress that it could place on the victim would be inexcusable and uncalled for.  However, this type of tactic is sometimes employed as a last resort to see if the fear of prosecution will result in a different version being proffered thus given rise to doubting the victim's allegations.  However, before this is reported on they should at least wait until the investigation is completed.     

 

 

 

[greenchair]

10 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Named only as "Yaya" she said earlier that she was very drunk

 

I'm not saying that it excuses the rape or that she deserved it or any of the usual PC responses, if it took place, but getting very drunk in a foreign country where the local mores are unknown is never a good idea.

It's like coming to Thailand without insurance, and riding a m'bike without a helmet ( without ever having ridden a m'bike before ) - not a good idea.

Perhaps young female tourists should forget what they "should be able to do" and start thinking about what might happen and take precautions.

Perhaps if she hadn't been "very drunk" this wouldn't have happened.

Is it too much to expect that tourists take precautions and behave more carefully?

Pathetic excuses that some  males

Come up with to justify rape.

Don't say you aren't  making excuses. You are doing exactly that.

There are no laws against getting drunk whilst enjoying a holiday.

Is it too much to expect police, tuk drivers  and public transport personal to keep their donger in there pants where it belongs.

Is it too much to expect these people to understand taking advantage of holiday makers is illegal and carries a prison sentence of 3 to 5 years .perhaps they should behave within the laws of their country  more carefully.  

[sweatalot]

3 hours ago, Wake Up said:

Call me crazy but I tend to believe getting your clothes ripped off in the bushes while drunk and having sex with two strangers who leave you in the bushes is rape. ?

 

I don't understand the connection with the subject

[seajae]

so the hospital confirmed she had been raped but the police decide that is wrong, have to wonder how big an envelope the tuk tuk drivers dropped off to them. Add to that  2 weeks to confirm yet they cleared the island  bosses son overnight, must have been a different lab.

[farcanell]

3 hours ago, sweatalot said:

 

there is no proof

medical professionals cannot determine rape

(except if there are typical injuries that cannot be self inflicted. Nothing is said about this and I doubt they have even been looking or injuries - or do you mean the burns from the wok?)

 

they can only find sperm in the vagina - which is proof for sex - not proof for rape

 

Ok then....forget what the experienced professional medical staff say... and we will go with your unqualified rubbish.

 

oh... wait.... only an idiot would go with unqualified rubbish.... I'm recanting and going back to believeing experienced doctors

 

However, your welcome to continue demonizing women, if you wish, and believing the tuk Tuk drivers of Thailand, over doctors.

 

good luck with that.

[madusa]

By the way just a matter of interest, I have read a case in USA where the rape victim had an orgasm while she was raped and the judge wanted to dismiss the case however the prosecutor with medical proof said the orgasm was an involuntary muscle contraction which could happen in some cases. With this medical informations the judge put the case back on and proceed with the court case.

[farcanell]

4 hours ago, kingstonkid said:

OK Let's for get the hyperbole.

 

Here are the facts.

 

A young Aussie lady came to thailand.  Which the Aussie media has from what we read here done a good job of painting a scarey picture.

 

She comes from what we read alone.  

Goes out to some dance clubs and or bars and ties on a good one.

She then according to her gets a tuk tuk home.

 

She is then raped by a Thai tuk tuk driver and his friend.

 

Only 5 drivers.  OK

They have some CCTV footage that they can check to follow her travels as well as talking to the bar staff and different clubs in the area that might have seen or served her.

 

There is no mention of her having a job back in Aus and her age would lead me to believe there is the possiblity she is a student.

 

Does this happen only in Thailand and would she be safer somewhere else??

 

If you are american or Aussie or Canadian ask yourself that question while you think of Spring Break.

 

Why would you think she is a student on break? Stats say something like 50% of school leavers don't go on to further study... then add in drop outs... plus consider women might be less likely to choose a career path over motherhood... and your assumumption is based on sweet FA

 

[farcanell]

4 hours ago, impulse said:

 

I'm not making an argument for the facts in this case.  I don't know who's telling the truth.

 

My point is about a system that seems to deliberately put burdens, both financial and psychological on any foreigner who seeks justice for a crime perpetrated on them.  Aside from being unfair to that particular foreigner, it leaves criminals on the streets to victimize even more people.

 

In addition to the cost of staying in country (and away from work) for the manhunt and waiting (2 weeks in this case) for the evidence, there's the cost of flying back to Thailand to testify if it goes to trial.  Then there's the unquantifiable risk of the victim being harmed by the perpetrator or someone else on behalf of the perpetrator.  

 

And in this case (as in others), the police have added the bonus of a veiled threat of prosecution for falsely reporting a crime.  With "falsely reporting" determined by entities with a pretty bad reputation for corruption, and under a lot of outside pressures to defend the reputation of Thailand tourism.  In other cases, it's a threat of prosecution for defamation.  Either of which would serve as a pretty good incentive to flee the country long before the case goes to trial.  Which has the affect of leaving criminals on the streets to victimize even more foreigners because they found out it's pretty easy to get away with it.

 

All of which is why I'd gladly kick a little money into a GoFundMe campaign to help offset the cost of keeping her safe while proceeding with the case to get the rapists off the streets.  (And if they prove she's lying, she'd still be in the country to prosecute her, right?)

 

 

 

Wow... you nailed it there. ???

[sanemax]

2 hours ago, LazySlipper said:

 

 

From where I stand, " charges of false reporting against the Australian tourist have not been ruled out. "  is a clear notice of intent. Consequently a warning and very possibly a threat.

 

  Then you need to sit down in front of an English teacher and learn the meaning of words and sentences .

    Refusing to say that you will not do something is quite clearly NOT and indication that you will be doing something that you refuse to say that you will not be doing

[bannork]

17 minutes ago, farcanell said:

 

Wow... you nailed it there. ???

Referring to Impulse's post- it's undoubtedly true local criminals love tourist spots because :

1. The victim must go back to their country to work, doesn't want to hang around for prosecution- that's not a question of the system deliberately putting burdens on the tourist though- it's a financial reality, or should the host country pay for months of the plaintiff's board and lodgings?

2. There's a new face/victim every day who doesn't know the perpetrator as a tourist spot by definition means new faces every day.. In a village /town the culprit would be soon recognized by the victims who live there too.

But this girl is clearly so out of it she falls against a hot wok as seen in the CCTV-.I've been that drunk too in my youth-  not able to stand by myself and unable to remember the following hours. Who can believe a word she says in that condition?

[farcanell]

7 minutes ago, bannork said:

Referring to Impulse's post- it's undoubtedly true local criminals love tourist spots because :

1. The victim must go back to their country to work, doesn't want to hang around for prosecution- that's not a question of the system deliberately putting burdens on the tourist though- it's a financial reality, or should the host country pay for months of the plaintiff's board and lodgings?

2. There's a new face/victim every day who doesn't know the perpetrator as a tourist spot by definition means new faces every day.. In a village /town the culprit would be soon recognized by the victims who live there too.

But this girl is clearly so out of it she falls against a hot wok as seen in the CCTV-.I've been that drunk too in my youth-  not able to stand by myself and unable to remember the following hours. Who can believe a word she says in that condition?

 

I liked impulses post.... and was not being sarcastic... he nailed it..

 

not sure about your opinion, although I'm thinking you agree impulse nailed it as well

 

and.... if you check my posts, whilst refusing to blame the victim, I also express the point of view that she was too wasted to be a reliable witness, which is why the DNA is required

 

that said..... I do believe someone probably did rape her, and as others have pointed out... consent is not given, if your too wasted to give consent.... fact... she was too wasted to give consent (see video).... fact... someone had sex with her ( see post where medical proffessionals confirm she was raped)

 

however, the above not withstanding... I'm not sure what your point was

[farcanell]

2 hours ago, LazySlipper said:

 

 

From where I stand, " charges of false reporting against the Australian tourist have not been ruled out. "  is a clear notice of intent. Consequently a warning and very possibly a threat.

 

Worth reposting.... obviously a post written by someone with a good understanding of the written word.... and that which remains unwritten..... I believe it's called "reading between the lines"

[sweatalot]

1 hour ago, farcanell said:

 

Ok then....forget what the experienced professional medical staff say... and we will go with your unqualified rubbish.

 

oh... wait.... only an idiot would go with unqualified rubbish.... I'm recanting and going back to believeing experienced doctors

 

However, your welcome to continue demonizing women, if you wish, and believing the tuk Tuk drivers of Thailand, over doctors.

 

good luck with that.

 

I am not demonizing women. I just say there might be evil intended women - same as there might be evil intended men.

And the standard procedure of the law equips them with a deadly weapon that can be abused - and has been abused - cases are well known.

 

And about the experienced professional medical staff of Thailand - You remember the experienced professional staff in the Koh Tao case?

No need to say more.

 

And btw. your style is abusing and against the forum rules.

[rct99q]

Have not seen what they include in a rape kit in Thailand, but in general they look for the following:

foreign hair (ie, not the subjects)

Blood

Semen

Skin fragments

Other foreign debris such as clothing, man made fabrics, twigs, leaves, grass, paint, wood fibres, soil and so on

Bruising

Nail marks on the skin, both external & internal

Sweat

Saliva 

And more...

All of which combined with the victims statement will lead to one initial result. In this case the victim, it must be assumed, either provided an original statement to a nurse or Doctor that she was raped or could not remember giving consent for a sexual act or acts.

Authorities should conclude in the initial stages of the investigation to treat this as a suspected rape case.

Some types of similar cases in North America have taken weeks, months or even years to come to a conclusion. 

 

If this young lady was intoxicated to the point that she was unable to make a coherent decision to have sex with someone then it should be treated as rape. Even if the suspected perpetrator or perpetrators were under the impression she consented.

 

If unfortunately she was coherent enough to make a decision and made a bad decision by agreeing to have sexual relations with a person or people this should be found out in the due course of the investigation. However unlike some posters who wish to demonize this lady she should be afforded the benefit of the doubt till all the information is gathered.

 

 

[Old Croc]

6 hours ago, Wilsonandson said:

Then without a link it's still hearsay. Don't tell lies on Thaivisa? Is that part of the rules. This is a web forum about the Thai news not CNN. The general public who ever can join and comment. No lie detector test given. We're not journalists, just people discussing the Thai news in English. Netizen is it called?

What a strange post!

It contains quite a few very strange comments about the forum, the rules and the membership, none of  which seems to relate to my post.

You seem to think it is ok for members to tell lies here, but because I stated I don't personally tell such lies, you call my comments hearsay, because I didn't provide a link in support.. When did you become a judge on Thaivisa qualified to rule on Common Law. Are you a frustrated moderator?.

I think you should stick to all those lightweight word game threads you start on the Pub forum and leave English Common Law to those of us who have actually been trained in it.

 

[tukkytuktuk]

9 minutes ago, Old Croc said:

What a strange post!

It contains quite a few very strange comments about the forum, the rules and the membership, none of  which seems to relate to my post.

You seem to think it is ok for members to tell lies here, but because I stated I don't personally tell such lies, you call my comments hearsay, because I didn't provide a link in support.. When did you become a judge on Thaivisa qualified to rule on Common Law. Are you a frustrated moderator?.

I think you should stick to all those lightweight word game threads you start on the Pub forum and leave English Common Law to those of us who have actually been trained in it.

 

Yes, what a twit, honesty is aways the best policy.

[Torrens54]

Not saying this was what happened in this instance BUT...

Some "Victims" have in the past been found to have discovered they were raped... after the Cheque Bounced or they sobered-up and had second thoughts on what "seemed" like a fantasy at the time.

[bandito]

15 hours ago, Old Croc said:

I'm reminded of a case in Phuket a few years ago.

Three young Aussie fools got into a tussle with the tuk tuk mafia and all received stab wounds, one was quite seriously hurt. While giving their statements at Patong police another tuk tuk driver turned up pointed out a small dent on his vehicle and accused the kids of kicking it.

The police immediately switched their investigation to address the more serious crime of vehicle damage and gave the tourists an ultimatum.  Get on a plane now or spend time in a Thai prison awaiting a court date for their offence.

They went home, the thugs got a free ticket to stab tourists.

 

Fantasy! I don't believe this. Show me a link to that story, because that's what it, is a story.