Australian woman dead after colliding with husband's jetski at Kata Beach

[stevenl]

2 hours ago, Blackheart1916 said:

Australia requires a powered watercraft licence, about 4 hours of theory instruction, similar to boat licence, and $150 gets it for you.

If I look online I see tours offered, no license required. From one of those websites: " We offer self-drive, no license required, fully escorted tours and are THE ONLY Jet Ski Tour Company in Perth and Mandurah offering Open Ocean jet skiing (Hillarys & Mandurah) where you can totally circumnavigating the an Island (Mandurah, WA). "

And that was just the first one I found on Google.

[farcanell]

44 minutes ago, stevenl said:

If I look online I see tours offered, no license required. From one of those websites: " We offer self-drive, no license required, fully escorted tours and are THE ONLY Jet Ski Tour Company in Perth and Mandurah offering Open Ocean jet skiing (Hillarys & Mandurah) where you can totally circumnavigating the an Island (Mandurah, WA). "

And that was just the first one I found on Google.

Why not do it again, hey?

 

in Western Australia, you must, by law, have a license to ride anything over 6 hp

 

attached is the government regulation, which can be found at transport.gov.wa.au

 

anyone not following this requirement, is breaking the law. ( not saying I agree with it, just saying that it is law)... and  these businesses are playing fast and loose with the law..... although by "escorting" the hirers, they are applying some responsible initiatives, and perhaps with a robust insurance policy and self regulating safety case, they may have gotten some form of dispensation to operate

[stevenl]

11 minutes ago, farcanell said:

Why not do it again, hey?

 

in Western Australia, you must, by law, have a license to ride anything over 6 hp

 

attached is the government regulation, which can be found at transport.gov.wa.au

 

anyone not following this requirement, is breaking the law. ( not saying I agree with it, just saying that it is law)... and  these businesses are playing fast and loose with the law..... although by "escorting" the hirers, they are applying some responsible initiatives, and perhaps with a robust insurance policy and self regulating safety case, they may have gotten some form of dispensation to operate

So its the same as in Thailand, officially required but renting one without license is easy.

If so, why all the comments about this is well regulated in Australia?

[farcanell]

25 minutes ago, stevenl said:

So its the same as in Thailand, officially required but renting one without license is easy.

If so, why all the comments about this is well regulated in Australia?

Good point.... as demonstrated, people are required by the government to have licenses, and yet this seems to be largely ignored by adverts placed by hire companies

 

i have a suspicion that the law would be applied mostly to private owners.... and only when they are caught in areas where skis are not allowed, or if "speeding"

 

i am only theorizing this, but hire companies may have worked thru some loophole, by closely supervising and instilling their own safety code on their operation, which may somehow satisfy the overlords.

 

as far as regulation goes ( outside the license requirement) police boats are continually patrolling perth and mandurah river systems, and they do regularly stop jet skis for excessive noise or speed or being in a disallowed area etc etc, which we don't see here, and operators of hire companies would come under marine and wildlife scrutiny... ( hence thinking that the hire companies have self regulated their industry to allow closely supervised use of their skis)

 

outside that, I'm at a loss for a better explaination, as Australia is highly policed in every area that I have been involved with.... and they happily (barstools)  impose significant fines for any breaches found

[4MyEgo]

17 minutes ago, farcanell said:

Good point.... as demonstrated, people are required by the government to have licenses, and yet this seems to be largely ignored by adverts placed by hire companies

 

i have a suspicion that the law would be applied mostly to private owners.... and only when they are caught in areas where skis are not allowed, or if "speeding"

 

i am only theorizing this, but hire companies may have worked thru some loophole, by closely supervising and instilling their own safety code on their operation, which may somehow satisfy the overlords.

 

as far as regulation goes ( outside the license requirement) police boats are continually patrolling perth and mandurah river systems, and they do regularly stop jet skis for excessive noise or speed or being in a disallowed area etc etc, which we don't see here, and operators of hire companies would come under marine and wildlife scrutiny... ( hence thinking that the hire companies have self regulated their industry to allow closely supervised use of their skis)

 

outside that, I'm at a loss for a better explaination, as Australia is highly policed in every area that I have been involved with.... and they happily (barstools)  impose significant fines for any breaches found

Will back you 1000% there, cops/police in Australia are respected, i.e. they have a job to do, and if you are caught doing something illegal, like riding a jet ski without a license, you wouldn't dare challenge him/her, the fines are astronomical for any type of traffic offence and with a demerit system/points system, it does take lone to lose your license, depending on the offence.

 

Prior to retiring, I would work in the field, i.e. outside of the office, in a car to get from A, B, C, D, and clearly remember every single day before I started that engine, shit, do I have my drivers license, do I have my seat belt on, do I have my GPS on which going to alert me every time I go over 55, because with the amount of speed cameras, red light cameras, mobile cameras and highway patrol out there, like great white sharks lerking, with you being the seal/meal if you didn't have your wits about you, and if you got booked for something, you could challenge it in court, and lose a day or two wages.

 

Maybe that's why they have a low road fatality rate when compared to Thailand.

 

All of this because, rules and regulations, and enforcement, without the latter, you have no rules and regulations.

 

When Thai's start becoming educated and realise that life is more important than money, perhaps we will see change, but not in our life time.   

[stevenl]

Will back you 1000% there, cops/police in Australia are respected, i.e. they have a job to do, and if you are caught doing something illegal, like riding a jet ski without a license, you wouldn't dare challenge him/her, the fines are astronomical for any type of traffic offence and with a demerit system/points system, it does take lone to lose your license, depending on the offence.
 
Prior to retiring, I would work in the field, i.e. outside of the office, in a car to get from A, B, C, D, and clearly remember every single day before I started that engine, shit, do I have my drivers license, do I have my seat belt on, do I have my GPS on which going to alert me every time I go over 55, because with the amount of speed cameras, red light cameras, mobile cameras and highway patrol out there, like great white sharks lerking, with you being the seal/meal if you didn't have your wits about you, and if you got booked for something, you could challenge it in court, and lose a day or two wages.
 
Maybe that's why they have a low road fatality rate when compared to Thailand.
 
All of this because, rules and regulations, and enforcement, without the latter, you have no rules and regulations.
 
When Thai's start becoming educated and realise that life is more important than money, perhaps we will see change, but not in our life time.   

You realise we just concluded enforcement of the license rule in Australia is lax?

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[Alan Deer]

Australian rules vary interstate, but even in Maroochydore they will insist on training for a bit or at least seeing you can operate - otherwise they could be sued.

In fact my boat licence was on a computer in Qld and I got asked a few times whilst on a jolly on the Brisbane river....if yoi are back-o-Burke it is unlikely, but park rangers may ask if you enter the park with a boat in tow.

 

Here a re a few samples from Oz and the US - they all stipulate keeping your distance from other craft as does international shipping law.

 

 

Victoria rules......

Stunts and manoeuvres must be done well away from other people, other vessels and the shore. The main complaint received by marine authorities relates to the operation of PWCs close to other water users and/or the water's edge.

If you cannot maintain the minimum distances you must slow to 5 knots. PWC operators are subject to hoon legislation. The safe operation section of this site has more information about speed and distance rules.

 

Like any other boaters, PWC operators should make sure that they know the boating rules applicable to any waterway they intend to use (see the Vessel Operating and Zoning Rules for particulars) and the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea.

 

Western Australia rules.....

Freestyling is prohibited:

•       Within 30 metres of another PWC.

Within 50 metres of another vessel or person in the water.

 

Wave and Wake jumping is prohibited:

•       Within 30 metres of another PWC

Within 50 metres of another vessel or person in the water.

 

USA

Maneuvering a personal watercraft by weaving through congested vessel traffic, jumping the wake of another vessel unreasonably close or when visibility around the vessel is obstructed, or swerving at the last possible moment to avoid collision is classified as reckless operation of a vessel (a first-degree misdemeanor)

[Alan Deer]

19 minutes ago, stevenl said:

You realise we just concluded enforcement of the license rule in Australia is lax?

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it may be lax in some areas, but it isn't non-existent and the population are aware of the possibility of getting hauled over.........in Thailand it is quite a different matter.

[farcanell]

Ok then.... here it is.

 

private users must be licensed

 

hire users must be trained to an acceptable and auditable level, before going solo, but must still be supervised... the companies must install speed restrictors... the company must comply with specified state and local requirements...... this following a Queensland coronial enquiry.

 

So.... persons hiring a ski are not actually required to hold a license, and hire companies are audited at a minimum of once per year, to demonstrate compliance

[jimlek]

Yes Australia has good boating lawa but many like NZ don't. ÑZ requiresno licence and there's no breath testing. 

[4MyEgo]

45 minutes ago, stevenl said:

You realise we just concluded enforcement of the license rule in Australia is lax?

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On the contrary, they are not lax at all, just have a look at some of the other posts

[stevenl]

On the contrary, they are not lax at all, just have a look at some of the other posts

So how about the examples given where there is clearly no enforcement.

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[4MyEgo]

1 minute ago, stevenl said:

So how about the examples given where there is clearly no enforcement.

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I'm assuming that your referring to Australia, if so it would appear that these companies can in open ocean waters allow people to ride jet ski's based on certain criteria and training, rules, regulations etc etc, but you would have Buckley's in a built up area. 

[4MyEgo]

11 minutes ago, stevenl said:

So how about the examples given where there is clearly no enforcement.

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Currently, there are 236,500 people with a licence to operate jet-skis in Victoria – more than in either Queensland or NSW. 

 

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/call-for-change-to-horrifically-dangerous-jetski-licensing-rules-for-teens-20170203-gu4q0p.html

[farcanell]

3 hours ago, stevenl said:

So how about the examples given where there is clearly no enforcement.

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Covered by rules set by coronial enquiry and standards put in place by government agencies, operating in conjunction with hire companies ( e.g... coroner said wear helmets... operators successfully argued that this posed a greater danger to the user.... bigger surface area, larger impact force)

 

i went to the trouble of wading through the muck, because having Australia being called "lax" referencing rules and enforcement, simply didn't jive with my personal experience on the dark side.... I have been pineappled, sans Vaseline, way too many times to agree that they are lax... lol.... if only (then I might still live there, vs here)

 

australia has also adopted a system of self regulation, ALWAYS at a higher standard than the law requires, in an attempt to self govern.... leaving government agencies to "oversee / audit" vs enforce, with the main benefit being in reduction in insurance cover and improvement of company reputation ( dead people don't help your reputation, regardless of how many waivers might be signed)

[Destiny1990]

Seems the word Mandatory has no value here because none of these guys on Kata beach  had some sort of an Insurance.

[stevenl]

7 hours ago, farcanell said:

Covered by rules set by coronial enquiry and standards put in place by government agencies, operating in conjunction with hire companies ( e.g... coroner said wear helmets... operators successfully argued that this posed a greater danger to the user.... bigger surface area, larger impact force)

 

i went to the trouble of wading through the muck, because having Australia being called "lax" referencing rules and enforcement, simply didn't jive with my personal experience on the dark side.... I have been pineappled, sans Vaseline, way too many times to agree that they are lax... lol.... if only (then I might still live there, vs here)

 

australia has also adopted a system of self regulation, ALWAYS at a higher standard than the law requires, in an attempt to self govern.... leaving government agencies to "oversee / audit" vs enforce, with the main benefit being in reduction in insurance cover and improvement of company reputation ( dead people don't help your reputation, regardless of how many waivers might be signed)

Nonsense in this case.

 

If as is claimed here a valid DL is required in Australia for riding a jetski, the industry can not self regulate and decide their guests won't need one. Not having a DL can in no way be a higher standard that the law requires.

[Alan Deer]

11 hours ago, farcanell said:

Ok then.... here it is.

 

private users must be licensed

 

hire users must be trained to an acceptable and auditable level, before going solo, but must still be supervised... the companies must install speed restrictors... the company must comply with specified state and local requirements...... this following a Queensland coronial enquiry.

 

So.... persons hiring a ski are not actually required to hold a license, and hire companies are audited at a minimum of once per year, to demonstrate compliance

you realise that this varies from state to state? and your post is 2011?

[Docno]

19 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

Anything that has the potential to kill you or someone else should be regulated, and the appropriate license obtained.

 

It is unfortunate for this girls family and the guy losing the love of his life, he will live, he will move on and love again, the family will remain with an emptiness in the hearts for ever, and the jet ski operators will forget about this as soon as another customer rents their jet ski's, wake up Thailand, wake up any country that doesn't license such machines that can kill you or anyone else for that matter, regulations/licenses do help in reducing loss of life, and anyone that thinks differently is a clown IMO.

 

Unfortunately in Thailand we will not see regulation or licensing of this nature because its just not the norm, but banning beach chairs is one step in the right direction isn't it ?

This 'clown' responds... Fact of the matter is that almost any machine has the potential to kill you through misuse or shear bad luck. And not just machines. Yesterday, a woman in the UK died trying to remove items from a roadside clothing donations box. The stool she was using to reach inside the box collapsed and she was left hanging there overnight until she died. In your world, we should therefore license the use of stools (think of all the suicides we'd prevent!) and donation boxes.

 

Here's something for you to mull over: http://www.amputee-coalition.org/lawn-mower-accidents-cause-needless-amputations/   Over 600 kids need amputations and 75 people are killed each year in the US due to accidents involving lawn mowers. Guess we should license those also...

 

Clown out/

 

[4MyEgo]

14 minutes ago, Docno said:

This 'clown' responds... Fact of the matter is that almost any machine has the potential to kill you through misuse or shear bad luck. And not just machines. Yesterday, a woman in the UK died trying to remove items from a roadside clothing donations box. The stool she was using to reach inside the box collapsed and she was left hanging there overnight until she died. In your world, we should therefore license the use of stools (think of all the suicides we'd prevent!) and donation boxes.

 

Here's something for you to mull over: http://www.amputee-coalition.org/lawn-mower-accidents-cause-needless-amputations/   Over 600 kids need amputations and 75 people are killed each year in the US due to accidents involving lawn mowers. Guess we should license those also...

 

Clown out/

 

Try looking outside the square you live in, Thailand has the 2nd highest road fatality in the world, now how do you think you could reduce that, just sit on your hands, don't regulate, don't enforce, you have to start somewhere, and that would reduce fatalities.

 

Lawn mowers, clothing bins, clothes lines, cliffs, yatta yatta yatta

 

Your a funny clown....555

[Docno]

4 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Try looking outside the square you live in, Thailand has the 2nd highest road fatality in the world, now how do you think you could reduce that, just sit on your hands, don't regulate, don't enforce, you have to start somewhere, and that would reduce fatalities.

 

Lawn mowers, clothing bins, clothes lines, cliffs, yatta yatta yatta

 

Your a funny clown....555

What do road fatalities in Thailand have to do with licensing jetskis?? Ease off on that whisky, friend...

[4MyEgo]

7 minutes ago, Docno said:

What do road fatalities in Thailand have to do with licensing jetskis?? Ease off on that whisky, friend...

Scotch and I have never seen eye to eye.

 

In an earlier post I mentioned anything that had a motor (if I recall correctly) that could kill you or someone for that fact, should be regulated/licensed, so I am looking at the big picture, jet-ski's are a powerful beast, as are motorbikes, having owned an 1100 for years, i.e. they get to warp speed in a matter of seconds, stopping either a jet-ski or a motorbike quickly is near impossible, however if your licensed, that would mean that you should have some kind of experience, and we all know if you have experience, you have better chances of survival and or of not killing someone IMO

 

As for my drink, I will wait for my San Miquel lite at about 5.30pm.

[4MyEgo]

3 hours ago, Alan Deer said:

you realise that this varies from state to state? and your post is 2011?

What is that old saying, "you can lead them to water, but you can't force them to drink it"

 

The fact of the matter is that it is enforceable, sure things vary state to state, lets not penny pinch, the point has been made, so start drinking 555

[theguyfromanotherforum]

Try looking outside the square you live in, Thailand has the 2nd highest road fatality in the world, now how do you think you could reduce that, just sit on your hands, don't regulate, don't enforce, you have to start somewhere, and that would reduce fatalities.
 
Lawn mowers, clothing bins, clothes lines, cliffs, yatta yatta yatta
 
Your a funny clown....555

Correct. There are more important things Thailand should "regulate" or rather enforce the law regarding the maniacal driving rather than regulate jet skis because a few foreigners had a rush decided to play with their lives.

[Don Mega]

23 hours ago, Blackheart1916 said:

Australia requires a powered watercraft licence, about 4 hours of theory instruction, similar to boat licence, and $150 gets it for you.

Tourists are not required to hold a licence.

[farcanell]

5 hours ago, Alan Deer said:

you realise that this varies from state to state? and your post is 2011?

Yes Alan.... I do realise this.... and also that Queensland operators were given two years to fully comply, making it a 2013 deal, which isn't that long ago

 

but, as the post from Stevenl, pointing out that licenses were not needed ( per advertisements) was about mandurah and hillaries, both in WA.... I have dredged up the rules for there as well, because, as I said earlier, I have issues believeing that the Aussi policing system would be considered lax, as they have never been lax in dealing with me, unfortunately (for me)

 

I did also suggest earlier, that I thought there may be a difference between privately owned skis and hired skis, due to restraints on hire companies.... so here's the deal in WA..... read "exemptions"

 

 

 

[farcanell]

6 hours ago, stevenl said:

Nonsense in this case.

 

If as is claimed here a valid DL is required in Australia for riding a jetski, the industry can not self regulate and decide their guests won't need one. Not having a DL can in no way be a higher standard that the law requires.

The hire company requires a "higher license", which covers the use of their skis (who, how, where and when), which is why, in WA, to hire a ski, the responsible government body has issues exemptions to having a license.

 

ive now researched two states, that have been discussed here, and shown that hirers of skis don't need a license, which actually surprised me a little, as I thought some kind of watered down version of the full skippers ticket may be required

 

people from other states, which may be subsequently mentioned, can check their own state, but for me, the situation is clear.... no license required to hire a ski

 

Also consider that WA plus Queensland account for almost all of Australia's worthwhile coastline (crocs in the territory, great whites in SA, freezing cold waters in Vic And Tassie.... NSW is pretty cool)

[Don Mega]

1 minute ago, farcanell said:

 

 

ive now researched two states, that have been discussed here, and shown that hirers of skis don't need a license, which actually surprised me a little, as I thought some kind of watered down version of the full skippers ticket may be required

 

 

Wouldn't it be a personal watercraft licence not a Skippers ticket ?

[farcanell]

2 hours ago, Docno said:

What do road fatalities in Thailand have to do with licensing jetskis?? Ease off on that whisky, friend...

What do lawn mower accidents have to do with jet skis?

 

but... on lawn mowers, since you mention it, my Thai lawn mower automatically stops if I release the throttle bar.... a safety feature to stop people taking the catcher off while the machine is running, which would be a manufacturer implemented design feature to reduce lawn mower injuries per your post/link

[farcanell]

6 minutes ago, Don Mega said:

Wouldn't it be a personal watercraft licence not a Skippers ticket ?

They seem to refer to it as a recreational skippers ticket on the WA website....it could have been a PWC license in Queensland, but I can't remember

 

I was thinking a PWC license (or pick another name) might be something for tourist to have, following the mandatory demonstration of competency, to provide an auditable trail.

 

im pretty sure that some form of documentation, by whatever name, would be required to be issued to the hirer, and/or, as a minimum, kept by the operator.