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What exactly happens to farangs who are caught working without permit?


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7 hours ago, blackcab said:

 

Based on the opinion of the Council of State, the DOE issued the Notification in March 2015, specifying the following activities not considered as ‘work’ under the Act:
1. Attendance at meetings, discussions or seminars.
2. Attendance at exhibitions or trade exhibitions.
3. Visits to observe businesses or to meet for business dialogues.
4. Attendance at special lectures and academic lectures.
5. Attendance at technical training and seminars.
6. Purchasing of goods in trade exhibitions.
7. Attendance at board of directors meetings of one’s company.

 

 

Great... this is the one... I've been asked to judge English speaking competition.....

This is the one I am looking for, I will make a copy and try to find the Thai version.

 

Thanks again

Blackcab

I

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there was a story not long ago (bangkok post i believe) where an immigration official came out and 'ruled' that volunteer teaching was a visa violation as it resulted in an indirect benefit; ouch; it does follow tho if one remembers that immigration officials are police (RTP) and Not lawmakers; they can interpret those laws any illogical way they wish

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working of Alien act 2008

Section 5: Definition - WORK : Means of engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or benefits …..goes on to say….In  order to do work you need a work permit if you are a foreigner.

 

With this very broad definition of work - Then any foreigner that enters into the kingdom of Thailand who for example - is then found just to be simply breathing - would need a work permit - Because that is exerting energy.

 

In the past this Act was used to allow labor officials to go into factories to check for foreign workers - In today's changing economy the act is clearly out of date with modern work practice especially when used by digital nomads.

 

Its worth noting how this Act has been used in the past:

 

About 10 years ago - Company ECC were teaching Thai students how to speak english (Company still exists) - Many regional centers were raided and it was found that many of the teaches did not have a work permit, but none were prosecuted or fined. The employers ECC were prosecuted mostly relating to laws about acting as an education establishment.  

 

There was a strange case in Chang Mai of a foreigner who was renovating his house and was raided (and the act used for the purpose of the raid) because he was said to be working as he was exerting energy as quoted under the act (clearly not for compensation, but irrelevant since this is not required under the Act). He was raided simply because his the next door neighbor made a complaint (possibly well connected for the complaint to get traction). The foreigner house was raided and the foreigner was threatened with prosecution - With a max penalty for working without work permit: 2 years in prison and/or fine up to 100K THB. - He paid a 100K fine and did not go to prison.

 

This is a typical result of what happens in Thailand and this is because no prosecutor would be willing to charge a foreign worker in a situation like this. The case stayed under the control of the single police officer who attended the house and the single labour officer that also entered the house. They placed pressure on the foreigner to settle before charges could be applied and obviously they wanted the settlement.

 

Generally if the police did want to pursue charges it is unlikely that the prosecutor would want to take the case. The most likely outcome would be the foreigner would be let off since the Act was not designed for this occurrence and the prosecutor knows this.

 

The bottom line for most foreigners is that if the  police did ever do threaten make a charge - They would first need to be accompanied with a Gov Labour official - Then they will take your passport -  You will then be allowed release on bail (figure of around 5K THB)  - The key issue is that they will only attempt to follow the  prosecute after they have tried to scare you with 2 years in prison to settle before. After this the net result is that there is only a very slim chance that the state prosecutors would accept the case - And actually being prosecuted for working without a work Visa is an unlikely event / outcome from the court if you ended up there.

 

There is estimated to be 2 to 3 million digital Nomads working in Thailand - typically they are mostly part time in Thailand and estimated to usually be working only 4 to 5 months of the year.

 

Another case - A few years ago (again in Chiang Mai) a raid on a co-working space occured (called Punspace) Details of Raid

 

The net result of the raid was that no foreigners were ever charged - The co-working space was not raider because of suspicion of digital Nomad’s actives of blogging and online design etc but rather the Co-Working space was raided as so many foreigners gathering is a single area it was thought that they were operating a call center for boiler room sales of shares to overseas prospects.

 

The result was some discussion afterwards and also related publications from the Labor office Dept issued - They released a confirmation that it is unlikely that any prosecutions of Digital Nomads would ever occur ...Unless they were seen as competing with a Thai worker - A blogger is not the target and will not be prosecuted - If a foreigner was shipping good directly from Thailand this would be seen as something requiring a work visa .

 

There was also another raid in Chiang Mai at the Riverside hotel - where online teaching was occurring - after a conversion of a large conference room for foreign teachers who could work online (teaching students in China).

 

A complaint was made and the raid occurred. Again similar to the PunSpace raid the intent of the raid was not to prevent  digital foreigners  working illegally, but rather the suspicion that this was some form of Spying operation for China (not clear how this could ever be considered as provide a spying opportunity). Again all foreigners were taken to the Police station and temporarily their notebooks were taken together with their passports. None of the foreign digital workers were prosecuted for working illegally - All were released apart from one who was on overstay and was dealt under separate act by immigration.

 

The company that converted the Hotel space in the hotel was prosecuted, but not under any laws related to foreign workers working without a Visa, rather was prosecuted for illegal conversion of the space / not registering the conversion as a property.for business use.

 

Summary: It is illegal to work in Thailand without a work permit, but because the way that work is defined it is impossible to define what work actually is. Specifically no Digital Bloggers have ever been prosecuted in Thailand for Blogging without a work permit - even after being found to be working as a blogger. And the bottom line is you are very unlikely ever to get into a Thai court for prosecution - if you make sure that you do not compete with a Thai person.

 

In the grey space of what might happen is if you upset a Thai person (Who has connections) - Its going to all be about how much your nerves will allow you to brave it out and then going the distance - But you might want to make it easier and compromise in the process and pay up 

 

Specifically if you are a Digital Nomad you will have no problems. But if you are shipping goods out of Thailand then you will have the problems. The issue of online blog / website / Facebook account being used in any  process is irrelevant.

 

 

 

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  • 1 year later...

In the UK, they are deported immediately if they find a passport with you. If they cannot find your passport (even after searching your residence), it becomes very complex. The let you go. After repeatedly being caught. they may put you in detention.

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On 3/25/2017 at 9:03 AM, Khun Robert said:

It all depends on the officers and their instructions.

I have seen and heard a warning to an employer: We know he works without work permit, next time we will make an arrest. Don't employ him anymore.

Other times: People went straight to jail, went to court, paid the fines and went back to their Thai homes.

Or people went straight to jail, went to court, paid the fines, got arrested again by Immigration for working on tourist visa, back into jail and deported.

And a fine is offered at the crime scene, when paid directly to the officer all is good.

 

Wow! In all my years here I have never met anyone who was caught for working illegally, and yet you seem to have met loads.

 

Do you hang out in boiler rooms perchance ?

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On 3/25/2017 at 3:51 PM, chrisinth said:

Your example isn't necessarily true. Even with a teaching license, they could be employed by a school/college/university that don't apply for a work permit for the individual.

 

You clearly do not know that only establishments that fall under OBEC require a licence, those under OHEC, such as universities. do not.

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  • 2 months later...
On 3/25/2017 at 10:26 AM, steven100 said:

you would be fined ,  short stay at the Hilton then deported.  :burp:

I've always heard that unless you had the money to buy a plane ticket, then you stayed in jail until the money was presented. Obviously, the difficulties of being in jail and trying to raise money you don't have are seldom discussed. Surely they won't pay your plane fare back. I KNOW that your Embassy won't do it, if it's American or British. They'll let you rot in the monkey house. Can anyone clarify??  I've simply never heard of any sympathetic treatment for these cases, even when the individual is extremely sick. Lots of stories of people who died in jail for relatively minor offenses.

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On 4/4/2018 at 9:51 AM, pearciderman said:

 

Wow! In all my years here I have never met anyone who was caught for working illegally, and yet you seem to have met loads.

 

Do you hang out in boiler rooms perchance ?

I think your comment is unwarranted.

 

I used to live in Bangkok for many years and I met several foreigners who either had been arrested for working without a work permit and knew of several raids.

 

I now live in Sri Racha and most foreigners I meet live in Pattaya. The vast majority are retired or on holiday unlike Bangkok. As the demographic changes, so do the experiences. I haven't met a single foreigner in Pattaya arrested for working without a work permit. I have met several arrested for drink driving in contrast to Bangkok where I never met one.

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41 minutes ago, Hockeybik said:

What constitutes "work"? Serious question. As described in Non-imm B information, in addition to being the prerequisite to getting a work permit,  you may also "conduct business". 

Being employed (paid or unpaid) by a Thai based business, or engaging in any occupation.

 

Conducting business is exempt and effectively limited to business meetings.

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2 hours ago, elviajero said:

Being employed (paid or unpaid) by a Thai based business, or engaging in any occupation.

 

Conducting business is exempt and effectively limited to business meetings.

What about a foreign company that sends their foreign employees to Thailand for jobs? Consulting, mechanics, machinery install engineers, and so on? This could even be for a long term contract. The Thai company engaging the service pays the foreign company. The foreign company pays the employee. The employee isn't being paid by a Thai company. Nor is he doing work for a Thai company, he is doing work for the foreign company.

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36 minutes ago, Hockeybik said:

What about a foreign company that sends their foreign employees to Thailand for jobs? Consulting, mechanics, machinery install engineers, and so on? This could even be for a long term contract. The Thai company engaging the service pays the foreign company. The foreign company pays the employee. The employee isn't being paid by a Thai company. Nor is he doing work for a Thai company, he is doing work for the foreign company.

All work (unless exempt) carried out in Thailand requires permission, which in most cases is granted by a work permit.

 

It doesn’t matter where in the world your employer is you cannot work for them in Thailand without permission from the Thai authorities, which you won’t get unless there is a connection with a Thai based company, or they have a registered office in Thailand.

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9 hours ago, elviajero said:

All work (unless exempt) carried out in Thailand requires permission, which in most cases is granted by a work permit.

 

It doesn’t matter where in the world your employer is you cannot work for them in Thailand without permission from the Thai authorities, which you won’t get unless there is a connection with a Thai based company, or they have a registered office in Thailand.

I do agree with you, elviajero that is the letter of the law. My point is and also I think the overall point made by spambot (above) is there are gigantic gray areas in the law, in the interpretation AND in enforcement. Practically speaking, no companies I have seen, even 100% Thai ones (maybe especially Thai ones) go to the trouble of making sure their contractors are 100% rip roi. The exception may be multi-nationals where having outside contractors is routine - I'm not sure of that but guessing.

 

This is an example of where the burden of compliance is way greater than the risk of getting caught and way, way greater than handing over a few thousand baht in tea money in case you are. It is one thing for a foreigner to be openly working and advertising as a real estate seller or language teacher and quite another for a few engineers tucked away in the middle of a factory setting up a complex machine.

 

In an effort to regulate, tax or restrict something governments end up hurting themselves. If the process is simple, the tax fair, the restriction reasonable people will follow it, make the "price" too high, they do not.

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10 hours ago, Hockeybik said:

I do agree with you, elviajero that is the letter of the law. My point is and also I think the overall point made by spambot (above) is there are gigantic gray areas in the law, in the interpretation AND in enforcement.

I don't believe there are any grey areas in the law, but that the selective/lack of enforcement causes confusion.

 

The law was written 38 years ago to stop foreigners working in Thailand. At the time remote work for the masses wasn't possible, and since it's become a thing the Thai authorities could easily exempt it or re-write the law; but they haven't and don't look like doing so anytime soon. Just because you can work anywhere doesn't mean you can work anywhere; the country you are physically in have the say. IMO Thailand do not want to encourage remote workers to live/work in Thailand. They want short term tourists, or long term expats that meet certain criteria, or foreigners legally working for Thai based businesses. Formally allowing "remote work" opens up a whole can of worms.

 

I don't think they are at all bothered by the odd foreigner working for a foreign company etc. in their condo, but if they were working in plane sight they would be. The lack of enforcement is also down to the fact that it's almost impossible to enforce.

 

My simple example would be: I have two employees of my UK company working for me that live in Thailand. Other than their physical location their work has no connection to Thailand whatsoever. They both work from home, and I do not believe the authorities will ever go looking for them or prosecute even if they found out what they are doing; however, if the same two employees were doing the same work from an office they would almost certainly be shut down and probably prosecuted.

 

In my experience people believe the Thai authorities lack of enforcement of certain laws means they are in someway giving permission. It doesn't. At the moment, IMO, they are simply being pragmatic regarding remote work.

 

10 hours ago, Hockeybik said:

Practically speaking, no companies I have seen, even 100% Thai ones (maybe especially Thai ones) go to the trouble of making sure their contractors are 100% rip roi. The exception may be multi-nationals where having outside contractors is routine - I'm not sure of that but guessing.

I agree. There is lots of law flouting by employers, with and without the knowledge of authorities.

 

 

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In my experience, foreigners get arrested for work permit violations when someone has an interest in having that foreigner arrested.  Under the old law (more on that later), simply having a business meeting or working on your computer in a hotel constituted "work" under the work permit law.  But you never saw the police inspecting business centers or Starbucks looking for foreigners engaged in work.  At least I never did.  

 

But you will see arrests of foreigners if there is a dispute with a local business partner, an angry local competitor or - and I saw this - an HR manager of an MNC fly up from Singapore and fire a local Thai employee.  In other words, someone is either angry or has a financial interest in having the foreigner arrested.  And you will read about foreigners who "manage" bars getting arrested, although I have never seen this.

 

ubonjoe quoted Section 51 of the Alien Workers Act.  That quote was accurate.  But the law was recently changed to relax the penalties on foreigners engaged in work without a work permit and increase the penalties (just a bit) on local companies  that employ foreigners without work permits. 

 

A few firms have articles on this and I heard AMCHAM will be doing an event on the changes to Thailand's work permit law in July.  I expect other foreign chambers of commerce will also organize events explaining the changes. 

 

 

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Is repairing your own house considered a work permit violation on a tourist visa? I have heard conflicting answers with the majority saying yes, but only if someone reports the activity. Is there a distinction between maintenance and construction or is any work done around the house considered labor?

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30 minutes ago, EricBanPhe said:

Is repairing your own house considered a work permit violation on a tourist visa? I have heard conflicting answers with the majority saying yes, but only if someone reports the activity. Is there a distinction between maintenance and construction or is any work done around the house considered labor?

It is not really a matter of what visa you have since none of them allow you to work.

Doing minor maintenance and repairs should not be a problem unless somebody decides to make problems for you.

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On 3/26/2017 at 11:52 AM, Rhys said:

 

Great... this is the one... I've been asked to judge English speaking competition.....

This is the one I am looking for, I will make a copy and try to find the Thai version.

 

Thanks again

Blackcab

I

Judging/refereeing is missing from the list...

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On 6/8/2018 at 3:24 PM, gandalf12 said:

Is the money that good in Thailand that you would want to take a risk and work without a WP?

 

There's tremendous appeal to living where the sex is cheap, easy and cute- even if it means working for peanuts, and/or illegally.  Especially if the worst case is getting tossed out of the country.  In which case, a lot of guys are no worse off than had they given up and left on their own. 

 

That's the power of the poon.

 

While I have not succumbed, I can certainly see the attraction, especially recalling all the time, money and effort I wasted chasing the women back home.  I'd like to have a tiny percentage of that time and money back.  Bring it to Thailand and that tiny percentage buys a lot of luvin'.

 

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  • 4 months later...

I was reading trough this thread and wanted to ask how are "digital nomads" treated in this matter? I mean like many of my friends stay in Thailand with a tourist visa and work online as freelance writers. They receive payments from abroad every now and again (not always regularly) for the work they have done for some international agencies. I guess this is still considered illegal? But how could they possibly get caught and if they do what could be the penalty? Most of the discussion on this topic is about people working in Thai companies or physically working in the country and receiving money within Thailand, so this is not the same case of course.

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5 minutes ago, ChomDo said:

I was reading trough this thread and wanted to ask how are "digital nomads" treated in this matter? I mean like many of my friends stay in Thailand with a tourist visa and work online as freelance writers. They receive payments from abroad every now and again (not always regularly) for the work they have done for some international agencies. I guess this is still considered illegal? But how could they possibly get caught and if they do what could be the penalty? Most of the discussion on this topic is about people working in Thai companies or physically working in the country and receiving money within Thailand, so this is not the same case of course.

That does seem to be a grey area and if there are any laws , no one seems to know them .

Has anyone ever heard of someone getting arresting for working online ?

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22 hours ago, sanemax said:

That does seem to be a grey area and if there are any laws , no one seems to know them .

Has anyone ever heard of someone getting arresting for working online ?

Good point. I also don't see how they  could accuse someone for working online in another country. That's not called working in Thailand nor does it have anything to do with taking jobs from locals. 

 

Of course, I mean that the income would still come to your Thai account because you are staying in Thailand most of the year (with SETVs and other visas) and want the convenience of using a local bank account. But still it should be the same thing as people coming on holiday and keeping up with their overseas businesses/clients. This should have nothing to do with Thailand. Of course the difference is that the DN's stay here long term with all kinds of visa combinations, but as long as they give you a SETV or let you in the country again and again as a "tourist" then there should be nothing wrong with doing so.

 

I would assume that most foreigners living in Thailand (not talking about retired people) are engaged in some sort of online work and receive payments from overseas, unless they have a proper expat contract in a foreign company. Otherwise making a living in Thailand is difficult. Of course many also work as teachers and in the hospitality industry, but then it's obvious that you need a work permit. But for DN's there still isn't any system or visa in place. Until there is, DN's will have to stay in Thailand with SETV's and whatever visas they can get. 

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My view is that the Thai labor and visa laws pertaining to employment and working are way, way behind the digital age (sort of a no-<deleted> Sherlock statement). They were conceived with all good intent in a time when people went to work in offices and needed support employees and worked for companies in the the same locale as they lived. Same with Thai business registration. If Thailand would expand their view of work into the age of telecommuting, digital nomads and other "work" completed either mostly or entirely online they could, 1) raise more revenue through taxing "workers" who now dodge existing law by getting tourist visas or marriage visas or retirement visas and working "under the radar"... and 2) actually begin to attract this kind of worker to come and spend the money they earn outside of Thailand inside Thailand. That is a clear win-win. Money coming into the Kingdom from outside that uses little to no resources from the Thai economy. A sole proprietor business category or a single owner corporate entity under which one could pay to get a legal visa and work permit for which the appropriate departments collect fees and taxes I think would be welcome relief to many expats who want to be here legally and still need to work. I'll let you guys out there add the cynical replies but know that I've already thought of most of them.

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On 10/22/2018 at 12:26 PM, sanemax said:
On 10/22/2018 at 12:18 PM, ChomDo said:

I was reading trough this thread and wanted to ask how are "digital nomads" treated in this matter? I mean like many of my friends stay in Thailand with a tourist visa and work online as freelance writers. They receive payments from abroad every now and again (not always regularly) for the work they have done for some international agencies. I guess this is still considered illegal? But how could they possibly get caught and if they do what could be the penalty? Most of the discussion on this topic is about people working in Thai companies or physically working in the country and receiving money within Thailand, so this is not the same case of course.

That does seem to be a grey area and if there are any laws , no one seems to know them .

Has anyone ever heard of someone getting arresting for working online ?

- answering both :

Grey - not so grey.


You work from Thailand and generate money from there as you're physically sitting in Thailand and working on your computer from there, a computer / internet is a tool and nothing more, just like a carpenter is using a hammer.

Doesn't matter if the money come from another country / if the company using you is based elsewhere, that's off topic.

 

To me it's pretty clear, it's illegal to do that without WP, that being said, it's almost impossible to get caught and immigration probably has others priorities than chasing "cheap" freelancers earning a few K / month by working online.

 

I don't think we're gonna hear true feedback on that one / 1) There's not many online freelancers which must have been caught by immigration 2) Even if there are some they're probably on TV here 3) Even if there's some here they won't go public with that but let's see, you never know right !?

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On 10/23/2018 at 11:10 AM, ChomDo said:

Good point. I also don't see how they  could accuse someone for working online in another country. That's not called working in Thailand nor does it have anything to do with taking jobs from locals. 

We've had several threads about this in the past if you use the search function.   

I am a digital nomad myself and been living in Thailand since 2011.   I am also over 50 and early retired , but still keep my business in Europe.  

So I qualify for a visa based on retirement, unlike younger people who can only come here on tourist visas.  

 

I know freelancers, content writers, programmers who's been living here for years and working for their EU company .  They all seem to use tourist visas.

 

We all pay our tax in our home countries, we all have bank accounts there so there is no connection to Thailand except we spend the money here. 

 

Over all these years there has not been one single case where a westerner has been arrested working illegally . Except for some Chinese group of people who set up an office in CM , but that is a different thing.

 

I work from my home or coffee shops , from my laptop only 2-3 hours daily . And I would think at least 100 000 westerners do the same right now in Thailand.

Of course you're only worry now is to get a valid visa , being over 50 I don't have to worry so much . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, Pepper9187 said:

- answering both :

Grey - not so grey.


You work from Thailand and generate money from there as you're physically sitting in Thailand and working on your computer from there, a computer / internet is a tool and nothing more, just like a carpenter is using a hammer.

Doesn't matter if the money come from another country / if the company using you is based elsewhere, that's off topic.

 

To me it's pretty clear, it's illegal to do that without WP, that being said, it's almost impossible to get caught and immigration probably has others priorities than chasing "cheap" freelancers earning a few K / month by working online.

 

I don't think we're gonna hear true feedback on that one / 1) There's not many online freelancers which must have been caught by immigration 2) Even if there are some they're probably on TV here 3) Even if there's some here they won't go public with that but let's see, you never know right !?

Its a grey area becuase there doesn't seem to be any specific laws on the subject .

If you were a stockbroker in the UK , could you come to Thailand for a year and get an office and trade 8 hours a day  , using a UK bank account for transactions ?

   If you were a stockbroker in the UK , could you make one single trade in Thailand , if you were on a two week holiday ?

   If  UK landlord had 100 properties in the UK , could he stay in Thailand and run his business from Thailand ?

  

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2 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Its a grey area becuase there doesn't seem to be any specific laws on the subject .

If you were a stockbroker in the UK , could you come to Thailand for a year and get an office and trade 8 hours a day  , using a UK bank account for transactions ?

   If you were a stockbroker in the UK , could you make one single trade in Thailand , if you were on a two week holiday ?

   If  UK landlord had 100 properties in the UK , could he stay in Thailand and run his business from Thailand ?

  

You miss the point.

 

The question isn't if it's fair or logical or practical.
Question is, is it legal.

 

Don't get me wrong, i agree with you, just speaking by the law you're not supposed to do so that's all, you'll never get caught for that and everyone is doing it.

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