Thousands demonstrate in London against leaving the EU

[Stupooey]

5 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

No, you're not mistaken. People only started "crying and wailing" when they started noticing that their lives were being impacted by major decisions which weren't even mooted back in 1975.

Euroscepticism has been there all along, allowing other more committed countries to set the EU agenda. It has been brought to the surface relatively recently by the rise of Nationalism, as espoused by UKIP and other neo-Fascist parties.

Please explain the major decisions which have had such an impact on people's lives - they haven't made it into the newspapers in Thailand, and my friends and relatives in the UK seem to know nothing about them.

[nontabury]

3 minutes ago, Stupooey said:

Euroscepticism has been there all along, allowing other more committed countries to set the EU agenda. It has been brought to the surface relatively recently by the rise of Nationalism, as espoused by UKIP and other neo-Fascist parties.

Please explain the major decisions which have had such an impact on people's lives - they haven't made it into the newspapers in Thailand, and my friends and relatives in the UK seem to know nothing about them.

 

So you don't agree with other TV members point of view,so let's revert to name calling.

 

 

 

 

 

[Stupooey]

30 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 

So you don't agree with other TV members point of view,so let's revert to name calling.

 

 

 

 

 

If everyone has to agree with everyone else before they post, they may as well close down the forum. The rest of your post would appear to be a reply to someone else as it bears no relevance to anything I said.

[mommysboy]

12 hours ago, i claudius said:

Sorry boys ,its all over , the Brexiteers won , why bother to carry on crying if you lost , wave the banners ,spit out the dummys , wail and beat your chests , maybe we were wrong only time will tell , but its done and dusted . just get on with making the best of it ,not constantly crying .

 

Well, yes we're going out.  But you seem to saying only the Brexiteers have a say on how that is done!!!!

 

For what it's worth: I don't really care if we stay or go, but like anyone in their right mind I want a credible, sane, do-able exit strategy.  If there was one, I doubt anybody would be protesting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, citybiker said:

 

Some of the EU (its member states) are simply attempting to manipulate & exploit the Brexit negotiations for their own agenda, hardly surprising.

The EU had 9 months to prepare a draft response to the UK invoking A50 & their losing the UK and it's well documented the EU isn't harmonious as they wish everyone to believe.

The Nordic Community
The Eastern Bloc
The Southern sympathisers

Not forgetting Greece and Italy already fiscally struggling, the EU are in the envious position to ask the remaining members to increase their contributions to make up for its outgoing 2nd highest net contributor the UK leaving.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Unfortunately the manner in which we go is almost completely at the behest of the EU. 

 

I doubt that they want to create trouble for the UK, as that would only lead to creating a very able competitor on their doorstep. 

 

There can be no official deal: that much will be obvious to anyone with the possible exception of arch Brexiteers!  Yet, EU will be mindful that it is highly dependent on financial trade through the City of London.

 

Indeed, this something that needs to be addressed quickly for everyone's sake.  It will serve as a bell-weather for the overall relationship. I suspect equivalence will play its part: this is where UK effectively cedes power to EU for specific trading purposes.  UK gets to keep its so called sovereignty, and nothing much changes.  EU is not seen to be caving in.  No official deal is struck. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[citybiker]

 

Unfortunately the manner in which we go is almost completely at the behest of the EU. 

 

I doubt that they want to create trouble for the UK, as that would only lead to creating a very able competitor on their doorstep. 

 

There can be no official deal: that much will be obvious to anyone with the possible exception of arch Brexiteers!  Yet, EU will be mindful that it is highly dependent on financial trade through the City of London.

 

Indeed, this something that needs to be addressed quickly for everyone's sake.  It will serve as a bell-weather for the overall relationship. I suspect equivalence will play its part: this is where UK effectively cedes power to EU for specific trading purposes.  UK gets to keep its so called sovereignty, and nothing much changes.  EU is not seen to be caving in.  No official deal is struck. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately, I will disagree at behest of the EU, if you look at the economic figures & the fact that post Brexit we can can trade globally & set tariffs ourselves not set by the EU speak for themselves.

 

The CoL is a global financial hub & it's not just the UK that's dependant on its functions & my argument is supported by the overseas investment elements of the FTSE 100 for example.

 

Lastly, the UK is seeking a fair but competitive deal, the pound is investment attractive, thus global companies are increasing their capital investment which shows business confidence and if the EU wish to attempt to punish we can quite simply make our corporate tax much lower, not a threat but a gentle reminder & promise & warning signal to Mr Barnier, Mr Junker, Tusk and Merkel.

 

 

 

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[beautifulthailand99]

Dull angry man  in the pub - take this !

 

 

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

On 4/1/2017 at 6:57 AM, pitrevie said:

Most decisions arrived at in the council of ministers are unanimous. As to being unelected can you tell me which posts in the UK government are elected. We elect MPs but the PM is appointed and the entire government is then appointed by the PM. Just like the executive of the EU none of the executive are directly elected, each is appointed by its member government . Its the way governments operate.

You seem not to be able to accept that we live in a democracy. I cannot recall any time after the massive decision in 1975 to remain in the EEC people been told that they should shut up. In fact people on this forum even suggest if the decision is not to your liking that you should go and live in another country. Is that what the UK has been reduced to now, some democracy.

As I have pointed out time and time again prominent Brexiters MPs and MEPs have stated quite clearly that had the decision gone the other way they would not have accepted the result as final. 

As for sensible arguments do you bother to read your own posts, you appear to have a problem with the way democracy operates. I am entitled to my opinion just as much as you and I am also entitled to express that opinion on this forum just as much as you. As one other poster suggested if you cannot accept that principle perhaps it is you that should consider moving to North Korea as has been suggested on this forum.

Oh, you forgot the House of Lords. Give me another laugh, the EU appointments are about as democratic in its choosing of Commissioners etc as the UK does with the HoL. 

It wasn't long ago though, if you look it up, the EU didn't even qualify to join the EU under its own rules. What has changed is a bit of

jiggery-pokery, as usual by the French and Germans.

The EU is riddled with lobbyists from multi national companies with BIG brown envelopes and expense accounts.

Indeed you are entitled to your opinion, as is Farage, Clarke, Farron, and all the anti EU posters on TV.

The trouble is, the Remoaners have little you can defend with facts.

The UK is leaving, and the EU is pi$$ed off they will lose the 2nd biggest pocket to pick...

 

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

On 4/1/2017 at 6:56 PM, Stupooey said:

I amfinding it more and more difficult to reply to your posts as you insist on misquoting me (or is it a simple lack of understanding?). I never said that the national dailies I did not mention by name were neutral, by implication broadsheets other than the Telegraph supported remain and tabloids except the Mirror supported leave. I did not mention the Evening Standard as it is not a national daily, although I would have expected them to be in the remain camp as London (particularly the City) was always expected to be a loser with a leave vote.

Regarding the demographic, I take it that you are saying that the various organisations who produced the statistics made up the information rather than extrapolate from random samples. Whilst nobody can guarantee complete accuracy, the fact that all the different sets of statistics were more or less consistent with each other would imply that they were resonably accurate. They may have been interpreted differently by different people, but I wasn't going into that. Freak statistics, such as the one that hit the headlines claiming that only 36% of under-25's had voted, were quickly shown to have been based on incorrect information (2015 election), whilst the true figure was more like 64%.

I was eligible to vote and have already made clear my reason for not doing so. However I still have vested interests in the UK - friends, family and pension - so feel I am still entitled to pass comment. I was opposed to the referendum from the outset and felt that such an important decision should have been left to a free vote in Parliament, which of course is where UK Sovereignty lies. Now the decision has been made of course I realise there is no point moaning about the result, and I genuinely hope the outcome is positive, although I lack your confidence. 

The interpretation of the demographic presented as "fact" is impossible in a secret ballot, tell me how it could be anything else? The conclusion is based on percentages of percentages of local population. It is just as easy, given the information available legally, to say none of the student population got out of bed to vote. Supposition, speculation and manipulation is the name of the game.

The whole point of leaving the EU is to regain sovereignty. Laws, borders, trade, security and dignity. Apart from no longer subsidizing the east and southern  EU members, French farmers and the EU fishing industry.

As for newspapers and media, you need to have a better understanding as to how it works.

In a country with "free speech" you are, as a voter or not, as I am, entitled to have a say.

I just ask you take a look at what has been going on for 40+ years a bit more closely so you understand why it is time to call an end to this obsession to take over Europe by the EU.

 

[pitrevie]

3 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Oh, you forgot the House of Lords. Give me another laugh, the EU appointments are about as democratic in its choosing of Commissioners etc as the UK does with the HoL. 

It wasn't long ago though, if you look it up, the EU didn't even qualify to join the EU under its own rules. What has changed is a bit of

jiggery-pokery, as usual by the French and Germans.

The EU is riddled with lobbyists from multi national companies with BIG brown envelopes and expense accounts.

Indeed you are entitled to your opinion, as is Farage, Clarke, Farron, and all the anti EU posters on TV.

The trouble is, the Remoaners have little you can defend with facts.

The UK is leaving, and the EU is pi$$ed off they will lose the 2nd biggest pocket to pick...

 

Once again you state that EU appointments are undemocratic but then ignore the way the appointments are made in the UK. The PM isn't elected she is appointed. The entire government isn't elected it is appointed by one person. What would you have the EU do, have every executive position subject to a vote throughout the EU. 

The EU is riddled with lobbyists, wow that must be a really new development in any political system I guess all those companies that donate to political causes  in the UK do it out of the goodness of their hearts. For some reason many of them are then given titles following the huge donations their companies make to a political party. Do you even bother to read what you write let alone responding to what anyone else writes.

"The trouble is, the Remoaners have little you can defend with facts." Thus far you fail to respond when you are presented with facts other than just bluster. You don't accept the ECJ and when I pointed out that Brexiters wouldn't accept our own supreme court but in fact issued death threats where was your response, you did the usual ignore and bluster.

So answer the question when it is put do you accept decisions made by our own judicial system since you do not accept the ECJ. What is you view of those who issued death threats not only to judges but those involved in the recent court case. Is that what the UK has become where the rule of law is met with death threats.

Perhaps you can show me statements from 1975 where those who voted for Brexit where subject to death threats, yeah show me your facts.

Perhaps you can show me from 1975 where people who voted against the overwhelming majority were told that they either accept it or they should go and live in North Korea.

Perhaps you can show me where an MP is assassinated because they supported Brexit.

 

 

[brewsterbudgen]

Once again you state that EU appointments are undemocratic but then ignore the way the appointments are made in the UK. The PM isn't elected she is appointed. The entire government isn't elected it is appointed by one person. What would you have the EU do, have every executive position subject to a vote throughout the EU. 
The EU is riddled with lobbyists, wow that must be a really new development in any political system I guess all those companies that donate to political causes  in the UK do it out of the goodness of their hearts. For some reason many of them are then given titles following the huge donations their companies make to a political party. Do you even bother to read what you write let alone responding to what anyone else writes.
"The trouble is, the Remoaners have little you can defend with facts." Thus far you fail to respond when you are presented with facts other than just bluster. You don't accept the ECJ and when I pointed out that Brexiters wouldn't accept our own supreme court but in fact issued death threats where was your response, you did the usual ignore and bluster.
So answer the question when it is put do you accept decisions made by our own judicial system since you do not accept the ECJ. What is you view of those who issued death threats not only to judges but those involved in the recent court case. Is that what the UK has become where the rule of law is met with death threats.
Perhaps you can show me statements from 1975 where those who voted for Brexit where subject to death threats, yeah show me your facts.
Perhaps you can show me from 1975 where people who voted against the overwhelming majority were told that they either accept it or they should go and live in North Korea.
Perhaps you can show me where an MP is assassinated because they supported Brexit.
 
 

Don't hold your breath...

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[evadgib]

I fully expected the remainers to have won last June. Had they done so my disappointment would have lasted no longer than if I'd backed the wrong horse in a general election.  

 

Serial whinging a year later as seen on these boards is frankly quite worrying...

 

 

[pitrevie]

5 minutes ago, evadgib said:

I fully expected the remainers to have won last June. Had they done so my disappointment would have lasted no longer than if I'd backed the wrong horse in a general election.  

 

Serial whinging a year later as seen on these boards is frankly quite worrying...

 

 

You can see the topic title so why bother. I am amazed at some of the topics on here that drag on forever I have no interest in them in the least just whinging on and on about something which they cannot affect I just see that their page count goes up and up. The last thing I would do is repeatedly go on the topic to complain about it. I look forward to the many further replies from you.

[evadgib]

[dick dasterdly]

4 hours ago, pitrevie said:

You can see the topic title so why bother. I am amazed at some of the topics on here that drag on forever I have no interest in them in the least just whinging on and on about something which they cannot affect I just see that their page count goes up and up. The last thing I would do is repeatedly go on the topic to complain about it. I look forward to the many further replies from you.

I'm inclined to agree, whilst making a clear differentiation between those coming up with reasonable arguments/opinions as to why they disagree with the brexit vote - and those whose posts largely rely on insulting those that voted in a way with which they disagree....

[dick dasterdly]

The demonstrators are trying to influence the government's stance on negotiations.  Understandable and part of democracy even if we disagree with them.

 

People demonstrated (and worse) over the Poll Tax - which resulted in the government (to some extent) changing its stance.

[Khun Han]

21 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm inclined to agree, whilst making a clear differentiation between those coming up with reasonable arguments/opinions as to why they disagree with the brexit vote - and those whose posts largely rely on insulting those that voted in a way with which they disagree....

 

Too many posts by certain remainers read like the overly-aggressive rantings of an alpha male who just has to win any and every little debate/argument in which they get involved.

[dick dasterdly]

13 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Too many posts by certain remainers read like the overly-aggressive rantings of an alpha male who just has to win any and every little debate/argument in which they get involved.

I'd amend that to 'self-perceived alpha male' .

[mommysboy]

12 hours ago, citybiker said:

 

 

Unfortunately, I will disagree at behest of the EU, if you look at the economic figures & the fact that post Brexit we can can trade globally & set tariffs ourselves not set by the EU speak for themselves.

 

The CoL is a global financial hub & it's not just the UK that's dependant on its functions & my argument is supported by the overseas investment elements of the FTSE 100 for example.

 

Lastly, the UK is seeking a fair but competitive deal, the pound is investment attractive, thus global companies are increasing their capital investment which shows business confidence and if the EU wish to attempt to punish we can quite simply make our corporate tax much lower, not a threat but a gentle reminder & promise & warning signal to Mr Barnier, Mr Junker, Tusk and Merkel.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I'm not sure this has anything to with what I said: I said that the EU has the whip hand in negotiations on Brexit!!! 

 

[pitrevie]

56 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Too many posts by certain remainers read like the overly-aggressive rantings of an alpha male who just has to win any and every little debate/argument in which they get involved.

You just don't like being challenged on your ridiculous assertions. recall when I asked you to provide evidence for one such assertion and you responded that I being facetious and was engaging in debating tricks. 

[Khun Han]

36 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

13 hours ago, citybiker said:

 

 

Unfortunately, I will disagree at behest of the EU, if you look at the economic figures & the fact that post Brexit we can can trade globally & set tariffs ourselves not set by the EU speak for themselves.

 

The CoL is a global financial hub & it's not just the UK that's dependant on its functions & my argument is supported by the overseas investment elements of the FTSE 100 for example.

 

Lastly, the UK is seeking a fair but competitive deal, the pound is investment attractive, thus global companies are increasing their capital investment which shows business confidence and if the EU wish to attempt to punish we can quite simply make our corporate tax much lower, not a threat but a gentle reminder & promise & warning signal to Mr Barnier, Mr Junker, Tusk and Merkel.

 

 

 

I'm not sure this has anything to with what I said: I said that the EU has the whip hand in negotiations on Brexit!!! Quote this

 

 

He's pointing out that the UK has negotiating leverage, and that the EU doesn't have the whip hand (except in it's dreams and the dreams of ardent remainers).

[onthesoi]

6 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

He's pointing out that the UK has negotiating leverage, and that the EU doesn't have the whip hand (except in it's dreams and the dreams of ardent remainers).

 

Lol, you really are deluded.  Meanwhile back on planet earth:

 

EU leaders have said there will be no talks on Britain’s future relationship with the bloc until the UK government makes “sufficient progress” on the Brexit divorce, including settling its bills and citizens’ rights.

“Once, and only once we have achieved sufficient progress on the withdrawal, can we discuss the framework for our future relationship,” said Donald Tusk, the European council president. “Starting parallel talks will not happen.”

 

Which is why May is frantically trying to change the subject and distract the Brexiteers with the complete insignificant irrelevance that is Gibraltar ....where she can feign some fake nationalistic media victory to keep the knuckle draggers happy.

 

 

[transam]

3 minutes ago, onthesoi said:

 

Lol, you really are deluded.  Meanwhile back on planet earth:

 

EU leaders have said there will be no talks on Britain’s future relationship with the bloc until the UK government makes “sufficient progress” on the Brexit divorce, including settling its bills and citizens’ rights.

“Once, and only once we have achieved sufficient progress on the withdrawal, can we discuss the framework for our future relationship,” said Donald Tusk, the European council president. “Starting parallel talks will not happen.”

 

Which is why May is frantically trying to change the subject and distract the Brexiteers with the complete insignificant irrelevance that is Gibraltar ....where she can feign some fake nationalistic media victory to keep the knuckle draggers happy.

 

 

.............Gawd..............

[mommysboy]

UK has some leverage but not much.  Significant factors are defence, the City of London, and trade surplus for EU.

 

It is laughable to think UK will get what it wants. This is a damage limitation exercise. In fact, no deal really could be the best deal.

 

 

 

 

[pitrevie]

3 hours ago, evadgib said:

Ah the man who is not in the least interested in this topic returns once again to show us another picture. Look forward to your next posting on this topic that you are no longer interested in. Would you like count how many times you have posted something regarding Brexit, a topic you infer has no further interest for you since your vote almost 12 months ago.

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

 

I'm not sure this has anything to with what I said: I said that the EU has the whip hand in negotiations on Brexit!!! 

 

 

42 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

He's pointing out that the UK has negotiating leverage, and that the EU doesn't have the whip hand (except in it's dreams and the dreams of ardent remainers).

I'm not convinced that either party has the 'whip hand' - as both need to trade with each other.

[dick dasterdly]

27 minutes ago, onthesoi said:

 

Lol, you really are deluded.  Meanwhile back on planet earth:

 

EU leaders have said there will be no talks on Britain’s future relationship with the bloc until the UK government makes “sufficient progress” on the Brexit divorce, including settling its bills and citizens’ rights.

“Once, and only once we have achieved sufficient progress on the withdrawal, can we discuss the framework for our future relationship,” said Donald Tusk, the European council president. “Starting parallel talks will not happen.”

 

Which is why May is frantically trying to change the subject and distract the Brexiteers with the complete insignificant irrelevance that is Gibraltar ....where she can feign some fake nationalistic media victory to keep the knuckle draggers happy.

 

 

"EU leaders have said there will be no talks on Britain’s future relationship with the bloc until the UK government makes “sufficient progress” on the Brexit divorce, including settling its bills and citizens’ rights.

“Once, and only once we have achieved sufficient progress on the withdrawal, can we discuss the framework for our future relationship,” said Donald Tusk, the European council president. “Starting parallel talks will not happen.”"

 

If you believe that, you'll believe anything!

 

I've no doubt that EU politicians etc. would prefer that trade is not discussed before their own main interest, getting more money out of the UK to suit their ambitions/pensions etc. etc.

 

But does anyone seriously believe that big business is not already busy talking about trade agreements with both parties??

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, pitrevie said:

Ah the man who is not in the least interested in this topic returns once again to show us another picture. Look forward to your next posting on this topic that you are no longer interested in. Would you like count how many times you have posted something regarding Brexit, a topic you infer has no further interest for you since your vote almost 12 months ago.

I readily admit to applying ridicule from time to time but strictly by invitation. Where we differ is in my not putting words into the mouths of others & nor do I resort to 'You' this and 'You' that which inevitably precedes a person attack. I purged my Iggy list in Dec and have no desire to start a new one. You're welcome to put me on yours but for entertainment value you will remain (no pun intended) in plain sight.

 

And for the record I was disenfranchised at the 11th hour (15 year rule) from voting in the referendum and was among the 100+k eligable overseas voters denied a vote in the general election when HMG deliberately withheld their ballot papers...

 

[pitrevie]

Just now, evadgib said:

I readily admit to applying ridicule from time to time but strictly by invitation. Where we differ is in my not putting words into the mouths of others & nor do I resort to 'You' this and 'You' that which inevitably precedes a person attack. I purged my Iggy list in Dec and have no desire to start a new one. You're welcome to put me on yours.

 

And for the record I was disenfranchised at the 11th hour (15 year rule) from voting in the referendum and was among the 100k overseas voters denied a vote in the general election when HMG deliberately withheld their ballot papers...

 

I don't bother with ignore lists although I know I am on Khun Hans for the crime of banning him from a twitter account I have never had, not being some guy who he has a bee in his bonnet about and for writing books about kings. Don't ask me to make sense of any of that. Also for asking him to provide evidence for another of his ludicrous assertions. That I was told was being facetious and using debating tricks.

 

Where we differ is I do try to make a case for what I am saying. 

Where we differ is I don't go whinging about topics that I have no interest in but continue to post on those topics.

 

Some of us are interested in the topics on which we post. The decision for Brexit has been taken but what matters now is the next steps and how they accord with what we were promised by the people who succeeded in taking us out of the EU.

 

There were three main themes that Johnson and his cohorts made the centre piece of their campaign.

 

Immigration promising to reduce it but since abandoned.

The promise of extra money for the NHS based on a big red bus that almost all the lead politicians on the Brexit side posed in front of but again ditched. 

That we would remain members of the single market, also since ditched.

 

However it seems you are just content to put an X in a box and then criticise others who want to hold those politicians to account.

 

 

 

 

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

I don't bother with ignore lists although I know I am on Khun Hans for the crime of banning him from a twitter account I have never had, not being some guy who he has a bee in his bonnet about and for writing books about kings. Don't ask me to make sense of any of that. Also for asking him to provide evidence for another of his ludicrous assertions. That I was told was being facetious and using debating tricks.

 

Where we differ is I do try to make a case for what I am saying. 

Where we differ is I don't go whinging about topics that I have no interest in but continue to post on those topics.

 

Some of us are interested in the topics on which we post. The decision for Brexit has been taken but what matters now is the next steps and how they accord with what we were promised by the people who succeeded in taking us out of the EU.

 

There were three main themes that Johnson and his cohorts made the centre piece of their campaign.

 

Immigration promising to reduce it but since abandoned.

The promise of extra money for the NHS based on a big red bus that almost all the lead politicians on the Brexit side posed in front of but again ditched. 

That we would remain members of the single market, also since ditched.

 

However it seems you are just content to put an X in a box and then criticise others who want to hold those politicians to account.

 

 

 

 

 

This is a repost of my number 237, so try and understand, just for once:

 

The referendum voters had a simple choice of in or out. There were a fair amount of prophesies of doom and promises made by both campaigning sides but anyone with a basic understanding of the EU membership rules would know that leaving the EU also means leaving the single market.

 

The only person that was in a position to promise an attempt at a unique deal for the UK to remain in the single market through post Article 50 negotiation (in the event of the UK leaving the EU as a result of the referendum) was David Cameron, who was responsible for the referendum itself. He. of course, was also responsible for formulating any exit plan, which many stay voters now complain is missing. How could anyone else promise any exit arrangement without being in power?? 

 

Hard Brexit! Soft Brexit! I don't remember these beauties being quoted until after the referendum result was known. Sounds like we are dealing with a boiled egg! Well if this goes on for 2 years I suppose it won't be very runny, unlike the noses of the in crowd!