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BANGKOK 22 January 2019 05:26

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Thousands demonstrate in London against leaving the EU

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5 hours ago, Grouse said:

If you have "youngsters" in the UK, you definitely took the wrong decision! Are you educated to tertiary level out of interest? What do you think about fees now in England, Scotland and EU?

 

As usual you don't explain yourself. You just tell others that they are wrong. You never say why! 

 

I hold a good degree but university fees are not my main worry as far as all kids in the UK are concerned. 

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17 hours ago, pitrevie said:

 

In a 2012 speech on the European Union (EU), Mr David Davis (now Brexit Secretary) said: “If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy”.

It has changed its mind, from the last EEC referendum the UK had.

And the EU is far different from what was voted to stay in since then...

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4 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

It has changed its mind, from the last EEC referendum the UK had.

And the EU is far different from what was voted to stay in since then...

It would be amazing if the EU today wasn't vastly different from the original organisation. If it wasn't I daresay that people would have been complaining that it hadn't moved with the times. However go back and read the original intent of the founders and its quite clear what they intended the organisation to become. People who trot out that excuse as a reason to get out obviously never had that much interest but apparently every time we had some major treaty revision they demanded a referendum. The same people also have no interest in a referendum when the final Brexit deal is worked out such is the hypocrisy.

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9 hours ago, Nigel Garvie said:

I voted for Scottish Independence, and will do so again.  I accept that there may be some financial disadvantages, but most of my Scottish friends simply want to be free from English dominance, and community destroying Tory policies. Over 100 countries have got independence from British rule, if the English are so wonderful why are none desperate to return to it, maybe ask the Americans! This doesn't need to be a heated argument but for some perspective try inserting into KunMatt's statement Scotland and the UK.

"I voted for my country and the future of my children, and I was more than happy to accept any short term costs and problems.  But of course ...................it was just a pack of lies to blackmail the UK (Scotland)  into staying part of the EU (The UK) for their own selfish needs and agenda."

Incidentally all the children and young adults that I know feel that they have been betrayed by a generation that put their own  interests ahead of those of their children.

Obviously you have an issue with the understanding of independance. 

 

Independent of the rest of the UK and part of the EU? That is not independence is it?

 

Independent, all on your own? How do you propose to do that? 

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<deleted>, this thread has more personal squabbles than my kindergarten class....

 

Can we discuss the subject of the OP, and stop the bickering?  It is getting tedious

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11 hours ago, KunMatt said:

 

That's the sound, of silence.

 

And this is exactly why I love it when Remoaners bring up "the bus", because it's basically checkmate at that point.  It just shows that you have no credible argument to debate because your biggest gripe in 1 year is a suggestion that was written on the side of a bus.  That's your smoking gun.  A suggestion written on the side of a bus.  Think about how pathetic your stance is if that's the best you have!!!  Hahahahaha. 

Apologies for the delay but you never informed me that I had to respond within a timeframe that satisfies you, else I be open to criticism.

 

Where to start? Well, the entire being of UKIP: subvertly and overtly pandering to racist/xenophobe sentiment; their rampant electoral fraud; their own personal corruption and seemingly utter  lack of integrity. Then there is the government's lack of preparedness (understandable, you might say, because they expected common sense to prevail), but the complete and utter failure of the chief liars within the government to be able to even define what Brexit means - you all voted for something so nebulous and unathomable that even the chief numpties still cannot tell you what you are going to get.

Then there are the headlines that run daily, telling us about the job losses already felt and those to come, there is the crashing of the pound, there is inflation starting to bite. Need I go on?

And yet, all you have to defend the stupidity that we are being dragged into is not what is good about Brexit - your main point is that it isn't as bad as was predicted. Fantastic!

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2 hours ago, pitrevie said:

It would be amazing if the EU today wasn't vastly different from the original organisation. If it wasn't I daresay that people would have been complaining that it hadn't moved with the times. However go back and read the original intent of the founders and its quite clear what they intended the organisation to become. People who trot out that excuse as a reason to get out obviously never had that much interest but apparently every time we had some major treaty revision they demanded a referendum. The same people also have no interest in a referendum when the final Brexit deal is worked out such is the hypocrisy.

You do not consider that, during the 1970's, the original (ever closer union) intent of the EEC>EU was hidden from the British public before entry in 1973 and before the (confirmation) referendum of 1975. There was no internet and the small print was intentionally well hidden anyway. This information was not formally disclosed until the turn of the century. If the Heath government had not lied, and if this information had been freely available at the time, then UK voters would not have approved joining in the first place and we would not be having this debate at all. 

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On 26/03/2017 at 9:01 AM, NCFC said:

Viz the Hastings banner, we're not leaving Europe, we're leaving the EU

Actually you are leaving Europe as well. Brexit will cause the change of mentality on both sides of European Channel.

 

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Just now, oilinki said:

Actually you are leaving Europe as well. Brexit will cause the change of mentality on both sides of European Channel.

 

I fear that you are right - and the longer this uncertainty and sabre rattling continues, petty sentiment will only harden attitudes and bolster imagined divisions.

 

I am not sure which side of the channel you hail from, but if you are from the continental side, please don't turn your back to the British Isles altogether. Scotland will hopefully do the correct thing next time around and break from the UK, and then we will be looking for a welcome from our Eurpean friends.

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Just now, nauseus said:

You do not consider that, during the 1970's, the original (ever closer union) intent of the EEC>EU was hidden from the British public before entry in 1973 and before the (confirmation) referendum of 1975. There was no internet and the small print was intentionally well hidden anyway. This information was not formally disclosed until the turn of the century. If the Heath government had not lied, and if this information had been freely available at the time, then UK voters would not have approved joining in the first place and we would not be having this debate at all. 

I agree that now we have a lot more information available but that rarely leads to more participation in fact the reverse is often the case with declining voter turn out a hall mark of every type of election. However read the history of the European project it started as only coal, iron and steel but the founding fathers never intended that as the end game nor was the EEC the end game. It was stated quite clearly, economic and political union. That is where the scare stories then come in as if they wanted to construct some superstate. Can you imagine the French being any less French 20 years from now. In fact Scotland has been tied to England for some 400 years or so, are the Scots any less Scottish, have they lost their identity in any way?

Nobody hid any information from anyone I think what you really mean is that people couldn't be bothered to inform themselves. However I have no doubt in 1975 the result would still have been an overwhelming majority in favour. 

However if you believe things are hidden away have you read this report? But I think we both know the answer don't we.

The Government’s 2012-2014 Balance of Competences Review he said, was “one of the largest research exercises undertaken by the British Civil Service in its entire history.”

It produced 32 detailed reports, he said, finding that “every major stakeholder across every major sector of our economy and society doesn’t have a problem with our EU membership.  On the contrary, they say it brings real added value to our national policy making.”

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17 hours ago, KunMatt said:

I moved back to the UK 18 months ago with my wife and kids so I voted for Brexit because I want what is best for the country.

 

I totally understand the selfish nature that you are talking about though, how some people think it's perfectly fine to throw your own country and people under the bus so you can get a little bit more pension for a little while.

 

I voted for my country and the future of my children, and I was more than happy to accept any short term costs and problems.  But of course, the doomsday and punishments they promised would start the day after the vote was just a pack of lies to blackmail the UK into staying part of the EU for their own selfish needs and agenda.

 

Thankfully, the correct decision was made in the end.  I'm so sorry that you will have to cut down on the bar fines because the exchange rate is currently 10% lower than it was pre-Brexit, in the bigger picture I really don't care though.

The drop of Pound will cause some elderly folks to return to UK.

The drop of healthcare in Spain & Portugal will cause significant amount of elderly people to return to UK.

 

Is UK's healthcare system ready for the increased numbers of elderly pensioners? I assume that you are aware that it's your kids who pay this bill.

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4 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

I agree that now we have a lot more information available but that rarely leads to more participation in fact the reverse is often the case with declining voter turn out a hall mark of every type of election. However read the history of the European project it started as only coal, iron and steel but the founding fathers never intended that as the end game nor was the EEC the end game. It was stated quite clearly, economic and political union. That is where the scare stories then come in as if they wanted to construct some superstate. Can you imagine the French being any less French 20 years from now. In fact Scotland has been tied to England for some 400 years or so, are the Scots any less Scottish, have they lost their identity in any way?

Nobody hid any information from anyone I think what you really mean is that people couldn't be bothered to inform themselves. However I have no doubt in 1975 the result would still have been an overwhelming majority in favour. 

However if you believe things are hidden away have you read this report? But I think we both know the answer don't we.

The Government’s 2012-2014 Balance of Competences Review he said, was “one of the largest research exercises undertaken by the British Civil Service in its entire history.”

It produced 32 detailed reports, he said, finding that “every major stakeholder across every major sector of our economy and society doesn’t have a problem with our EU membership.  On the contrary, they say it brings real added value to our national policy making.”

I am aware of the origins of the EU, thanks. The aim of European political union was certainly not explained clearly to the British voters at the time! Heath said There are some in this country who fear that in going into Europe we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified.”  He deliberately lied, as he feared that he would lose support for the UK's application to the EEC, referred to as the "common market" at the time. That's what most people in the UK assumed it was - a market - that's all!

 

The national identities which you refer to have endured as there has been no pressure for any peoples to lose them, up until now. The influence of the EU will strengthen in member countries, as the EU superstate emerges and their identities are cast aside.

 

My primary issue is with sovereignty, which eventually would be lost completely by any member of this club.  

 

 

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16 hours ago, brewsterbudgen said:


I agree. The saddest aspect of Brexit is the effect it will have on the future ambitions and life chances of the younger generation. It wasn't by chance that the vast majority of young people voted Remain. If Cameron had had the guts to reduce the voting age to 16, the outcome might have been very different. That man has a lot to answer for!

While there is, for a good reason, voting age limitations for the young, this should apply to the other end as well.

 

People over age of 65 should no longer be allowed to vote as they are not going to participate the society for too much longer to see the effects of their votes.

 

This should be standard all around the world. Maybe our societies would advance a bit faster with that small change.

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31 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I am aware of the origins of the EU, thanks. The aim of European political union was certainly not explained clearly to the British voters at the time! Heath said There are some in this country who fear that in going into Europe we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified.”  He deliberately lied, as he feared that he would lose support for the UK's application to the EEC, referred to as the "common market" at the time. That's what most people in the UK assumed it was - a market - that's all!

 

The national identities which you refer to have endured as there has been no pressure for any peoples to lose them, up until now. The influence of the EU will strengthen in member countries, as the EU superstate emerges and their identities are cast aside.

 

My primary issue is with sovereignty, which eventually would be lost completely by any member of this club.  

 

 

I have lost count of the number of times I have posted the link to Professor Michael Dougan explaining sovereignty. Nothing comes out of the EU which can become British Law until it is approved by our own sovereign parliament.  However its also true to say that in any negotiation both sides have to give and take. In the upcoming Brexit negotiations this will be just as true. 

We have been in the EU for some forty years and our parliament is still the ultimate sovereign authority as recently affirmed by the supreme court when the PM tried to over-ride it. As Professor Dougan explains, if a European Law applies over a British Law it is only because our own sovereign parliament has approved that. We have had the Lisbon and Maastrich treaties, the SEA, each and everyone had to be approved by our own sovereign parliament. 

Heath didn't lie he knew exactly the constitutional position, that every treaty, every law could not be enacted in the UK without first getting parliamentary approval. 

Just to add there are many examples where some international law will over-ride a British Law, again that is only the case because the UK has signed up to some treaty or other and sought and been given the approval of our Parliament. Unless our Parliament had given its approval then it would have no affect in a British Court.

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