Testosterone Therapy for Weight Loss

[black fox]

48 minutes ago, tropo said:

IMO all this money spent on testing is wasteful, and they make a huge profit... and it gives customers the impression they're really good.

 

At the end of the day, what will they give you besides some testosterone shots to boost you (costs me no more than 65 baht per week DIY), and perhaps some anti-estrogen drugs to control that if necessary?

 

I can help you out with some more info if you can list the tests they are giving you, and what they are supplementing you with. I would find that really interesting. Some blood tests such as free testosterone are quite expensive.

im picking up my test results tomorrow ,i will see what they say and let you know also if i need to buy any needles testtosterone you might good enough to point me in the right direction.

[robblok]

11 hours ago, tropo said:

If you go to 25g, only use 1ml syringes. You won't press the oil out with a 5ml syringe, no matter how strong your grip LOL. I only use 25g. The less collateral damage the better.

Tropo, I use a automatic vice to inject   just joking.. yea i know what you mean. I will take a trip to a big pharmacy and get the stuff as the once near me only seem to stock 23 and 24 and both 1 1/4 inch .. prefer 1 inch max. 

[black fox]

 i went back to the therapy centre this morning and everything was ok taking my age into consideration, they said a course of testerone would be benificial but its too expensive at 9500bht a month and apparantly once you start you have to continue with the injections so unless it can be a lot cheaper i wont be starting on the course.

[tropo]

13 hours ago, black fox said:

im picking up my test results tomorrow ,i will see what they say and let you know also if i need to buy any needles testtosterone you might good enough to point me in the right direction.

 

The best place to pick up all the needles is Fascino.

[tropo]

56 minutes ago, black fox said:

 i went back to the therapy centre this morning and everything was ok taking my age into consideration, they said a course of testerone would be benificial but its too expensive at 9500bht a month and apparantly once you start you have to continue with the injections so unless it can be a lot cheaper i wont be starting on the course.

 

 

They had that part correct - once you start there's no going back as whatever amount you're producing naturally now will fall to zero.

 

 All that expensive testing and all it came down to was a permanent "course of testosterone", nothing else? Any chance you could show us the results of the tests. I'd love to see what tests they did for about 23,000 baht all up.

 

In actual fact, the only way for them to do this right is to test your hormone levels at regular intervals during your course to see how you respond to what they give you. Does the "course of testosterone" price include regular testing? What testosterone are they going to inject you with? Perhaps they want to keep the details secret to prevent you from doing it yourself.

 

To put the price into perspective, no matter how low your natural levels are, the most the testosterone could cost per month would be around 600 baht. That's choosing the best quality pharmaceutical brand readily available in Thailand and injecting weekly. That would most likely be way too much... but that's the most it should cost. Then you add the small cost of needles and syringes, at about 30 baht per month. If you want a clinic to do the injections for you, that should be about 50 - 100 baht per shot. Perhaps 3x per month, every 10 days would suffice.

 

 

[tropo]

3 hours ago, robblok said:

Tropo, I use a automatic vice to inject   just joking.. yea i know what you mean. I will take a trip to a big pharmacy and get the stuff as the once near me only seem to stock 23 and 24 and both 1 1/4 inch .. prefer 1 inch max. 

 

In Fascino they have all the gauges available in 1 inch. I've never seen 25g over 1 inch. There have been occasions where they didn't have 25g stock, in which case I revert to 24g. I'd use 26g if they had them in 1 inch, but they're only available in 1/2 inch. They will probably be ok if your bodyfat is low enough. 

[robblok]

15 minutes ago, tropo said:

In Fascino they have all the gauges available in 1 inch. I've never seen 25g over 1 inch. There have been occasions where they didn't have 25g stock, in which case I revert to 24g. I'd use 26g if they had them in 1 inch, but they're only available in 1/2 inch. They will probably be ok if your bodyfat is low enough. 

also dependent on where you inject.. if in your legs your almost straight in the muscle. 

[tropo]

19 minutes ago, robblok said:

also dependent on where you inject.. if in your legs your almost straight in the muscle. 

LOL> don't like it there - too many nerves, but yeah, 1/2 inch would be ok there. You might want to try the 26 x 1/2 that comes with the 1-inch syringes. I did use them a few times when I didn't have 25's. 

[JSixpack]

Good news on the ketogenic diet as a natural way to increase T, good leverage:

 

The Effects of Ketogenic Dieting on Body Composition, Strength, Power, and Hormonal Profiles in Resistance Training Males

Total testosterone increased significantly from Weeks 0-11 in the KD diet (118 ng/dl) as compared to the WD (-36 ng/dl) from pre to post while insulin did not change. The KD can be used in combination with resistance training to cause favorable changes in body composition, performance and hormonal profiles in resistance-trained males.

     --http://insights.ovid.com/crossref?an=00124278-900000000-96026

 

[simon43]

When I had my T-test in Pattaya a few weeks ago, the level was 400, (I'm 58 years old). The Swiss doctor said that this was low for my age, but not too low.  He recommended (but did not push too much), for me to have some T-injections.

 

I decoded against this for several reasons:

 

- I cam currently on a healthy diet/fitness regime, which may well boost my T-level naturally

- Since I live in Myanmar and don't visit Thailand that often, I'd have to inject the T myself.  Of course that is possible (Tropo and others), but I decided to hold off for the moment on this - mainly because of my get-fit regime.

 

Unexpectantly, I will be back in BKK in 3 months, so I intend to get my T levels measured again, to see if they have naturally increased after another 3 months of cardio, gym work, jogging, cycling and a fruit/veg/nuts/probiotic diet.

 

If an increase in my T-levels increases my libido, then this isn't a desired result for me, due to the lack of a partner/wife/gik/pay-for-play in my location in Myanmar!  (Seen a few sheep though).

[dontoearth]

    I am just half way thru the program I am on for TRT and some additional hormone HGH and steroid supplementations primobolan.  However, I did get a TANITA body scale measurement at my health club today out of curiosity.   I wanted to share the results.    

     My weight has dropped from 88.1 Kilo to 85.4 Kilo.  Finally!  My weight had plateaued since October of last year.

     My visceral fat score has gone from 14 to 12.  The TRT seems to be eating fat off my body!

     My body fat measurement went from 27.5% to 23.5%.  Again amazing.

     My fat mass from 24.2% to 20.1%.    What do you think of that?

      My muscle mass went from 60.6 Kilo to 62.0 Kilo.

      BMI moved from 27.5 to 26.7.

      BTW, I was off the gym for two weeks with some gout and then a holiday I had planned in Japan of 10 days.  So not all of this can be attributed back to the gym.

      And the warning your mileage may vary!  And the warning I a following a full hormone replacement protocol at an international clinic.  Also if you haven't followed my post on this forum I am 60 years old and only started body building and weight loss last June as a retirement project.  So these results might not be that impressive to real body builders.  I am representing the older crowd that has to have TRT to get results.  Not a thrill seeker!

 

 

[dontoearth]

ANOTHER UPDATE:

        I got another measurement on the Tanita Body Composition Analyzer at the Olympic Health Club.   On May 11 I saw my weight went back up to 86.7 from 85.4.  However, FFM was up to 67.1 from 65.3 on the previous measurement.  Fat mass was down to 19.6 from 20.1 kg.  Muscle mass had increased to 63.8 from 62.0 kg.  

       In other words my weight increase was all muscle and I was really losing fat. 

       This treatment is very expensive and very full featured but it really has the benefits.  Again for those not following earlier post I got Nebeido a 10 week injection of testosterone, an HGH pen for human growth hormone, and either parabolan or primabolan injection every Friday for sports performance.   I used Yoskarn clinic here in Bangkok.  I detailed the expenses once at around 3K USD.  This includes lab test, a doctor consultation, and all of the drugs in the 10 week program.  

        I do not at all advocate that anyone just get testosterone from a local pharmacy and go on a DIY program.   I didn't see a single poster in the DIY category that was having all the necessary test including PSA which is an important cancer marker that should be monitored as testosterone increases have been linked to prostrate cancer problems.

        I will post another update today and probably one in 2 weeks or so.  I am at the end of my program and the end of my retirement visa so I will be heading home to the USA soon.  I didn't meet my goal of getting down to 174 lbs.  However, the change in my body composition allowed me to get into size 34" waist pants I had brought along on this trip to measure progress.  So the additional muscle and body shape changes did bring me to my goal without the additional weight loss.

[bbi1]

On 2017-4-3 at 10:45 AM, dontoearth said:

A lot of posters in this forum have commented on using testosterone for weight loss and improvements in gym performance

Stay off the drugs peeps. Train naturally and don't inject all these drugs into your system unless you want to die young. Lots of pro-bodybuilders and non-pro bodybuilders die very young from taking all type of riods, testosterone, HGH, insulin and all the other stuff they use. "Zyzz" is an example of some Aussie dude who died in Thailand while on holiday at 22 years old from a heart attack. Lots of others have died of a heart attack, stroke, liver failure, kidney failure, liver cancer, etc. It might take you 10 years of lifting naturally to get big rather than 2 years on the gear, but you will end up healthier.

 

 

[dontoearth]

13 minutes ago, bbi1 said:

Stay off the drugs peeps. Train naturally and don't inject all these drugs into your system unless you want to die young. Lots of pro-bodybuilders and non-pro bodybuilders die very young from taking all type of riods, testosterone, HGH, insulin and all the other stuff they use. "Zyzz" is an example of some Aussie dude who died in Thailand while on holiday at 22 years old from a heart attack. Lots of others have died of a heart attack, stroke, liver failure, kidney failure, liver cancer, etc. It might take you 10 years of lifting naturally to get big rather than 2 years on the gear, but you will end up healthier.

 

 

Agreed entirely!  My original post was directed at people who had been to a doctor and had documented by medical test some hormone deficiencies which made weight loss and exercise impossible.  I got about 30 lbs USA off my body before hitting a brick wall for several months.  I am 61.  My testosterone was measured at 50 and the scale starts at 250 and runs to 1100.  So I had a medical necessity.  I did read about Zyzz and have to say that at 22 you do not need any of this medicine unless you have a severe medical problem.  The drugs lead to wanting more and more and eventually death for these kids again and again.  Using these drugs and supplements leads to another problem.  I will explain in my next progress post.

[bbi1]

8 minutes ago, dontoearth said:

Agreed entirely!  My original post was directed at people who had been to a doctor and had documented by medical test some hormone deficiencies which made weight loss and exercise impossible.  I got about 30 lbs USA off my body before hitting a brick wall for several months.  I am 61.  My testosterone was measured at 50 and the scale starts at 250 and runs to 1100.  So I had a medical necessity.  I did read about Zyzz and have to say that at 22 you do not need any of this medicine unless you have a severe medical problem.  The drugs lead to wanting more and more and eventually death for these kids again and again.  Using these drugs and supplements leads to another problem.  I will explain in my next progress post.

I've read previously taking testosterone may also lead to male infertility, having small testicles & male-pattern baldness. Not something you would want to have as a young dude....

[dontoearth]

3 minutes ago, bbi1 said:

I've read previously taking testosterone may also lead to male infertility, having small testicles & male-pattern baldness. Not something you would want to have as a young dude....

  All the more reason to do this ONLY if you need too and to do it UNDER THE SUPERVISION of a medical doctor with regular check-ups and laboratory testing.  I would assume someone like Zyzz had easily gone past 5-10 times the upper boundary of testosterone perhaps 20 times more and many of the other body building drugs have no equivalent in the body so any at all is far too much.  And death is a pretty hard side-effect to overcome.  

[dontoearth]

SECOND UPDATE REPORT of May 29:

       Weight loss started again.  I am down to 84.9 Kilo.  However, FFM (Fat Free Mass) decreased by a little less than a kilo.  Fat increased by 1.3 kilo.  Muscle mass shrank back down from 63.8 to 61.8.  However, BMI continues to drop at 26.5 still higher than the 24.9 I am trying achieve for health reasons.  I have high blood pressure!

        What does all of this mean?  Well for one thing the effects of the drugs like testosterone and HGH and the steroids are very fleeting.  My previous post had me walking on air but the results lasted only a few weeks.  We will see in about 2 or 3 weeks if the general trends continue toward weight loss my real goal.  If it doesn't then this was quite a bit of money and effort for some small temporary gains.

         Which brings me to a conclusion about testosterone and HGH and other steroids.  I believe the reason so many go overboard and harm their bodies on the juice as they call it is that the results are very temporary.  So kids end up using more and more in ever longer cycles and with higher and higher dosages.  And Yes without a doctor or lab measurements and cautions they can even die from the stuff.

           Myself I am finished up with my 10 week experiment and will do another measurement in 2 to 3 weeks and then head home to the USA.  I made the decision far in advance not to continue this program after 10 weeks.  I saw it as a medical necessity at age 61 with serious deficiencies in my hormone panel well documented by lab results and the ability to do this under medical supervision.  

           I see DIY as a fool hardy idea that I could just not get behind.

[robblok]

On 2017-6-4 at 11:01 AM, dontoearth said:

SECOND UPDATE REPORT of May 29:

       Weight loss started again.  I am down to 84.9 Kilo.  However, FFM (Fat Free Mass) decreased by a little less than a kilo.  Fat increased by 1.3 kilo.  Muscle mass shrank back down from 63.8 to 61.8.  However, BMI continues to drop at 26.5 still higher than the 24.9 I am trying achieve for health reasons.  I have high blood pressure!

        What does all of this mean?  Well for one thing the effects of the drugs like testosterone and HGH and the steroids are very fleeting.  My previous post had me walking on air but the results lasted only a few weeks.  We will see in about 2 or 3 weeks if the general trends continue toward weight loss my real goal.  If it doesn't then this was quite a bit of money and effort for some small temporary gains.

         Which brings me to a conclusion about testosterone and HGH and other steroids.  I believe the reason so many go overboard and harm their bodies on the juice as they call it is that the results are very temporary.  So kids end up using more and more in ever longer cycles and with higher and higher dosages.  And Yes without a doctor or lab measurements and cautions they can even die from the stuff.

           Myself I am finished up with my 10 week experiment and will do another measurement in 2 to 3 weeks and then head home to the USA.  I made the decision far in advance not to continue this program after 10 weeks.  I saw it as a medical necessity at age 61 with serious deficiencies in my hormone panel well documented by lab results and the ability to do this under medical supervision.  

           I see DIY as a fool hardy idea that I could just not get behind.

You mean you lost muscle after you stopped testosterone ? Sure it happens usually people also stop training hard then and then you lose more. Most people do keep quite a bit of their gains but not all. 

[tropo]

1 minute ago, robblok said:

You mean you lost muscle after you stopped testosterone ? Sure it happens usually people also stop training hard then and then you lose more. Most people do keep quite a bit of their gains but not all. 

Only young guys who practice good PCT (post cycle therapy) will keep some of their gains, if and only if they train intelligently and intensely. People like this are few and far between.

 

In reality, people who use steroids (testosterone and its derivatives) to gain muscle soon become psychologically addicted to them (the benefits) and can't do without them. They are doing it the easy way, and when they stop they usually become lazy and lose it all and gain fat to boot.

 

Older people on TRT will fare even worse if they stop. I don't see any reason why they should stop because even if they aren't taking it to gain muscle, they need it for general health purposes.

[robblok]

37 minutes ago, tropo said:

Only young guys who practice good PCT (post cycle therapy) will keep some of their gains, if and only if they train intelligently and intensely. People like this are few and far between.

 

In reality, people who use steroids (testosterone and its derivatives) to gain muscle soon become psychologically addicted to them (the benefits) and can't do without them. They are doing it the easy way, and when they stop they usually become lazy and lose it all and gain fat to boot.

 

Older people on TRT will fare even worse if they stop. I don't see any reason why they should stop because even if they aren't taking it to gain muscle, they need it for general health purposes.

Keeping your training up is required and good PCT too.. but yes many are lazy and will lose their gains. 

[dontoearth]

2 hours ago, robblok said:

You mean you lost muscle after you stopped testosterone ? Sure it happens usually people also stop training hard then and then you lose more. Most people do keep quite a bit of their gains but not all. 

      No still using the testosterone.   The muscle gains just seemed to fall back on their own.  I have seen this before with HRT and HCG.   The gains just don't last very long.  That is the reason many people turn to larger doses and more frequent doses.  And just keep cycling the products.  I have no intention of doing that.

      My training and diet were not changed in anyway.  The  gained muscle weight just fell back.  I am not surprised.  I am really only concerned with weight loss.  I am not a body builder.   I will get one more measurement in a week or two.  I am thinking now that the TRT really did cause a small weight loss but it was $$$$$$.   I am not sure its a solution for most people.    I will have a wrap on this shortly.

[robblok]

1 minute ago, dontoearth said:

      No still using the testosterone.   The muscle gains just seemed to fall back on their own.  I have seen this before with HRT and HCG.   The gains just don't last very long.  That is the reason many people turn to larger doses and more frequent doses.  And just keep cycling the products.  I have no intention of doing that.

      My training and diet were not changed in anyway.  The  gained muscle weight just fell back.  I am not surprised.  I am really only concerned with weight loss.  I am not a body builder.   I will get one more measurement in a week or two.  I am thinking now that the TRT really did cause a small weight loss but it was $$$$$$.   I am not sure its a solution for most people.    I will have a wrap on this shortly.

That is strange what you are talking about is not something I have ever heard about. Only when stopping do people lose muscle.. or if they train less. Strange anyway .. can't discount your experience. I have always held on my muscle with TRT.

[bbi1]

All these peeps taking all different types of roids are just lazy. You could just pump yourself full of roids and not do any exercise and grow bigger than someone who works their ass off naturally. See below article:

 

The magic bullet” about steroids aka Bhasin et al, 1996

But lo and behold, in 1996 Shalender Bhasin had a paper published in one of the most prestigious medical journals, the New England Journal of Medicine, describing a study that would forever change the view on anabolic steroids (Bhasin et al, 1996). Essentially the study was a double cross-over study in which 43 young healthy normal weight men, were put on standardized diets and then into one of four intervention groups:

1. No exercise, placebo
2. No exercise, 600 mg Testosterone Enanthate weekly
3. Resistance exercise 3 times/week, placebo
4. Resistance exercise 3 times/week, 600 mg Testosterone Enanthate weekly

for a period of 10 weeks. For reference, the recommended prescribed dose of testosterone for replacement therapy is 250 mg every 2 to three weeks. So 600 mg/week is preeeeetty supraphysiological, but still well below what is used in lifting circles, even for beginners. Naturally, these guys grew muscle and got leaner, but how much? Bhasin reported that the changes in fat-free mass were as follows, per group:

1. +0.8 kg
2. +3.2 kg
3. +2.0 kg
4. +6.1 kg

Thereby proving beyond any reasonable doubt that 600 mgs of Testosterone Enanthate per week does indeed cause skeletal muscle hypertrophy and increases in strength (strength data not shown in this blog post).

DATA FROM BHASIN’S LANDMARK STUDY SHOWING ROBUST MUSCLE HYPERTROPHY WITH TESTOSTERONE, EVEN IN THE ABSENCE OF TRAINING.

 

But besides showing that testosterone actually works, it also shows that testosterone causes skeletal muscle hypertrophy and strength improvements even in the absence of training! 3.2 kgs of muscle in 10 weeks with no exercise… That’s not too shabby if you ask me. Also, no exercise and testosterone actually worked better than the exercise by itself…

[robblok]

All these peeps taking all different types of roids are just lazy. You could just pump yourself full of roids and not do any exercise and grow bigger than someone who works their ass off naturally. See below article:
 

The magic bullet” about steroids aka Bhasin et al, 1996

But lo and behold, in 1996 Shalender Bhasin had a paper published in one of the most prestigious medical journals, the New England Journal of Medicine, describing a study that would forever change the view on anabolic steroids (Bhasin et al, 1996). Essentially the study was a double cross-over study in which 43 young healthy normal weight men, were put on standardized diets and then into one of four intervention groups:

1. No exercise, placebo
2. No exercise, 600 mg Testosterone Enanthate weekly
3. Resistance exercise 3 times/week, placebo
4. Resistance exercise 3 times/week, 600 mg Testosterone Enanthate weekly

for a period of 10 weeks. For reference, the recommended prescribed dose of testosterone for replacement therapy is 250 mg every 2 to three weeks. So 600 mg/week is preeeeetty supraphysiological, but still well below what is used in lifting circles, even for beginners. Naturally, these guys grew muscle and got leaner, but how much? Bhasin reported that the changes in fat-free mass were as follows, per group:

1. +0.8 kg
2. +3.2 kg
3. +2.0 kg
4. +6.1 kg

Thereby proving beyond any reasonable doubt that 600 mgs of Testosterone Enanthate per week does indeed cause skeletal muscle hypertrophy and increases in strength (strength data not shown in this blog post).

DATA FROM BHASIN’S LANDMARK STUDY SHOWING ROBUST MUSCLE HYPERTROPHY WITH TESTOSTERONE, EVEN IN THE ABSENCE OF TRAINING.

 

But besides showing that testosterone actually works, it also shows that testosterone causes skeletal muscle hypertrophy and strength improvements even in the absence of training! 3.2 kgs of muscle in 10 weeks with no exercise… That’s not too shabby if you ask me. Also, no exercise and testosterone actually worked better than the exercise by itself…

You do understand that this are levels far exceeding TRT levels ?

That is what we are talking about here. Not the use of it to build muscle. But sure it will help.

[bbi1]

36 minutes ago, robblok said:

You do understand that this are levels far exceeding TRT levels ?

That is what we are talking about here. Not the use of it to build muscle. But sure it will help.

I have no idea what exceeds TRT levels, I don't use any roids :)

[robblok]

59 minutes ago, bbi1 said:

I have no idea what exceeds TRT levels, I don't use any roids :)

The levels that they are talking about in the article you quoted, they are 3 to 4 times as high as what anyone is taking for TRT, TRT is just topping up to natural (but high) levels. 

 

Though the amounts they are talking about are still low for real bodybuilders. But people here are talking about TRT and those are a lot lower as those mentioned in the article. 

[tropo]

23 hours ago, robblok said:

Keeping your training up is required and good PCT too.. but yes many are lazy and will lose their gains. 

PCT is only useful if your pre-steroid testosterone production was good. If it was low before, then that's the best you can hope for if you are lucky to kick start it again.

 

When steroid users start to lose muscle after a cycle, they most often lose interest in training or quickly get on them again. It's a vicious cycle.

 

I used to know some competitive bodybuilders who did well in competition, but they could never train without them.

[tropo]

9 hours ago, bbi1 said:

All these peeps taking all different types of roids are just lazy. You could just pump yourself full of roids and not do any exercise and grow bigger than someone who works their ass off naturally. See below article:

 

1

You don't understand steroid use for bodybuilders. It's not about laziness. Many steroid users are the hardest training athletes in the gym - by far. Steroids give them the ability to train harder and longer without overtraining.

 

Also, you cannot achieve the same end result without the drugs. That's impossible. If you're looking for a jacked physique like you see in the movies, there's only one way to achieve it. A hard working natural athlete will not achieve this level of development.

 

But don't run around thinking steroid users are lazy --- that's nonsense. Some of these guys train for hours EVERY day. There is a limit to how much muscle you can build naturally, and for most people, it isn't much.

 

And please, enough of the Google articles. We all know steroids work.

[dontoearth]

11 hours ago, bbi1 said:

All these peeps taking all different types of roids are just lazy. You could just pump yourself full of roids and not do any exercise and grow bigger than someone who works their ass off naturally. See below article:

 

The magic bullet” about steroids aka Bhasin et al, 1996

But lo and behold, in 1996 Shalender Bhasin had a paper published in one of the most prestigious medical journals, the New England Journal of Medicine, describing a study that would forever change the view on anabolic steroids (Bhasin et al, 1996). Essentially the study was a double cross-over study in which 43 young healthy normal weight men, were put on standardized diets and then into one of four intervention groups:

1. No exercise, placebo
2. No exercise, 600 mg Testosterone Enanthate weekly
3. Resistance exercise 3 times/week, placebo
4. Resistance exercise 3 times/week, 600 mg Testosterone Enanthate weekly

for a period of 10 weeks. For reference, the recommended prescribed dose of testosterone for replacement therapy is 250 mg every 2 to three weeks. So 600 mg/week is preeeeetty supraphysiological, but still well below what is used in lifting circles, even for beginners. Naturally, these guys grew muscle and got leaner, but how much? Bhasin reported that the changes in fat-free mass were as follows, per group:

1. +0.8 kg
2. +3.2 kg
3. +2.0 kg
4. +6.1 kg

Thereby proving beyond any reasonable doubt that 600 mgs of Testosterone Enanthate per week does indeed cause skeletal muscle hypertrophy and increases in strength (strength data not shown in this blog post).

DATA FROM BHASIN’S LANDMARK STUDY SHOWING ROBUST MUSCLE HYPERTROPHY WITH TESTOSTERONE, EVEN IN THE ABSENCE OF TRAINING.

 

But besides showing that testosterone actually works, it also shows that testosterone causes skeletal muscle hypertrophy and strength improvements even in the absence of training! 3.2 kgs of muscle in 10 weeks with no exercise… That’s not too shabby if you ask me. Also, no exercise and testosterone actually worked better than the exercise by itself…

      What would a study on 'healthy normal weight young men.' have to do with fat loss for older overweight individuals.  NOTHING!  

[bbi1]

10 minutes ago, dontoearth said:

      What would a study on 'healthy normal weight young men.' have to do with fat loss for older overweight individuals.  NOTHING!  

No need to yell and have a roid rage attack lol