U.S. Navy destroyer, Philippines merchant vessel collide off Japan

[Grouse]

Following another fatal accident at sea with an American warship, China says all American warships must display "L" plates. Learner drivers are not permitted in the Mallaca Straits. ?

 

A spoksperson for the Royal Navy, Capt Pugwash RN, suggests that they introduce rum rations for all able bodied seamen.

Edited August 21, 2017 by Grouse

[melvinmelvin]

5 years ago there was another USN destroyer bumping (hard) into a tanker in the Hormuz Strait, no fatalities but lots of damage as far as I remember

the term destroyer takes on new semantical meanings, one thinks

 

I think maybe I mentioned it higher up in this thread. There is a US book titled Normal Accidents.  The book addresses a series of well known accidents (and many not well known) and points to why this accident more or less had to happen, when things first started to go in the wrong direction.

 

Among well known accidents discussed, the 747 shot down over Sakhalin, the space shuttle that blew into fragments shortly after take off, some Three Mile Island accident if I remember correctly

 

and an accident leading to 11 fatalities and a US Coast Guard training vessel sinking in the DC/Baltimore area the training vessel sunk in a couple of minutes after having been almost cut in two by an oncoming freighter

coming down the river the skipper sees the freighter, he sees her steaming lights but he has one of those short circuits in his brain making him think that he is in the process of overtaking the freighter, he is going to port to pass the freighter and is ploughed down

 

lots of people on the bridge seeing what is taking place but nobody intervenes with the skipper

 

I would not be surprised if the answers to these 3 destroyer happenings are linked to BRM or lack thereof

 

 

 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

5 years ago there was another USN destroyer bumping (hard) into a tanker in the Hormuz Strait, no fatalities but lots of damage as far as I remember

the term destroyer takes on new semantical meanings, one thinks

 

I think maybe I mentioned it higher up in this thread. There is a US book titled Normal Accidents. The book addresses a series of well known accidents (and many not well known) and points to why this accident more or less had to happen, when things first started to go in the wrong direction.

 

Among well known accidents discussed, the 747 shot down over Sakhalin, the space shuttle that blew into fragments shortly after take off, some Three Mile Island accident if I remember correctly

 

and an accident leading to 11 fatalities and a US Coast Guard training vessel sinking in the DC/Baltimore area the training vessel sunk in a couple of minutes after having been almost cut in two by an oncoming freighter

coming down the river the skipper sees the freighter, he sees her steaming lights but he has one of those short circuits in his brain making him think that he is in the process of overtaking the freighter, he is going to port to pass the freighter and is ploughed down

 

lots of people on the bridge seeing what is taking place but nobody intervenes with the skipper

 

I would not be surprised if the answers to these 3 destroyer happenings are linked to BRM or lack thereof

 

 

 

MCC multi crew cooperation is a  big problem in Asian aviation. Captain Krap!

[melvinmelvin]

Another recent follow up from US Navy Times;

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/08/21/navys-7th-fleet-no-stranger-to-high-ops-tempo/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy DNR 08-21-17&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

[melvinmelvin]

And the most recent one from US Navu Times that I have; (head rolling has started):

 

http://www.navytimes.com/naval/2017/08/23/7th-fleet-commander-sacked-days-after-second-deadly-collision/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy DNR 08-23-17&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

[melvinmelvin]

In today's Bangkok Post there is an sizeable article about the possibility

that the recent (June and this week's) destroyer crashes are linked to cyber attacks/hacking.

 

Worth a read that artice.

 

[melvinmelvin]

Here is another destroyer related piece from US Navy Times;

 

http://www.navytimes.com/news/your-military/2017/08/24/navy-identifies-1-dead-9-missing-from-mccain-collision/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy DNR 08-24-17&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup'

 

Mostly related to the Singapore mishap but also contains some pointers re Fitzgerald.

 

[hawker9000]

On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 1:51 AM, chrisinth said:

 

Speaking only about the Royal Navy in which I spent 23 years, specializing in navigation and small boat operations, I find that comment to have no merit. An Officer of the Watch (OOW) has to prove himself/herself before being trusted with the responsibility of both the vessel and all her crew. To this end he/she will undergo intense training in both navigation and ship handling.

 

The bridge crew during normal cruising (for a similar sized warship) would be made up of the Officer of the Watch, Quartermaster, (helmsman) Boatswain's Mate and a Radio Operator. 

 

On entering busy or restricted waterways, Special Sea Dutymen would be called for which, in addition to normal cruising would include the Captain or First Lieutenant being on the bridge and wheel and engine order logging commenced with the Navigating Officer taking over on the con and the OOW dedicated to the chart table. The engine room would also be manned with extra personnel, the ship's watertight integrity would be increased with fire & emergency parties mustered . 

 

A warship only has one dedicated Navigating Officer. I am certain that the same applies to the US Navy as well.

 

And just for interest, in the RN, form S.232 is the Report of Collision or Grounding form. This is why you will never (well, on very, very rare occasions) have the helmsman steering 232 degrees......................

"I find that comment to have no merit. "

 

True enough, but that won't discourage the nabobs here from enlightening us with their lukewarm wisdom and nonexistent at-sea experience.  And yes, US Navy ships have one Navigator billet with Dept Head status, but there may be an Asst Navigator (who'll be a JO without nearly the experience or responsibility of his boss).  I haven't read into the reports enough to know if these ships just had the normal nighttime underway watch set on the bridge or special detail augmentation.  (But they're probably standing port & starboard duty sections at THIS point ...)

 

It's interesting to hear chatter starting up about the possibility of hacking having something to do with the recent collisions.  I'm skeptical, but don't know nearly enough to be able to say it's not possible.

 

Edited August 25, 2017 by hawker9000

[colinneil]

39 minutes ago, hawker9000 said:

"I find that comment to have no merit. "

 

True enough, but that won't discourage the nabobs here from enlightening us with their lukewarm wisdom and nonexistent at-sea experience.  And yes, US Navy ships have one Navigator billet with Dept Head status, but there may be an Asst Navigator (who'll be a JO without nearly the experience or responsibility of his boss).  I haven't read into the reports enough to know if these ships just had the normal nighttime underway watch set on the bridge or special detail augmentation.  (But they're probably standing port & starboard duty sections at THIS point ...)

 

It's interesting to hear chatter starting up about the possibility of hacking having something to do with the recent collisions.  I'm skeptical, but don't know nearly enough to be able to say it's not possible.

 

You say chrisinths post has no merit!!!

Ok but how much experience do you need to see bloody big container/tankers, looming down on you?

[thaihome]

If a vessel,  military or otherwise, chooses to not broadcast their position via AIS then it is their obligation to avoid other ships that are doing so. As the below link states,  Singapore's ship control network,  equivalent to a traffic control system did not even know the McCain was there. This is along with other collisions shows that the US Navy has systematic issues and hopefully the relieving of the overall comander and worldwide safety shutdown will improve the the attitude. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/25/world/asia/navy-collision-uss-mccain-oil-tanker.html

TH 

[melvinmelvin]

From US Navy Times;

 

http://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/08/27/navy-swos-a-culture-in-crisis/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy DNR 08-28-17&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

US Navy employees expressing doubts about officers capabilities

re navigating/driving ships.

 

Edited August 29, 2017 by melvinmelvin
typo again

[melvinmelvin]

 

Today's US Navy Times;

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/08/30/top-navy-officer-no-indication-cyber-attack-played-role-in-mccain-and-fitz-disasters/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy DNR 08-30-17&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

US Navy officials on the possibility of cyber attacks/hacking as cause for the collisions.

They tend to rule out that possibility.

 

[Scott]

Inflammatory posts and replies removed.   Continue at your own peril.  

[melvinmelvin]

 

Some views from the US Navy on its own readiness;

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/09/06/new-evidence-of-dismal-readiness-among-navys-japan-based-ships/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy DNR 09-06-17&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

 

[thehelmsman]

On ‎8‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 3:07 PM, thaihome said:

If a vessel,  military or otherwise, chooses to not broadcast their position via AIS then it is their obligation to avoid other ships that are doing so. As the below link states,  Singapore's ship control network,  equivalent to a traffic control system did not even know the McCain was there. This is along with other collisions shows that the US Navy has systematic issues and hopefully the relieving of the overall comander and worldwide safety shutdown will improve the the attitude. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/25/world/asia/navy-collision-uss-mccain-oil-tanker.html

TH 

Not transmitting on AIS does not mean you don't show up on the other's radar. An AIS target usually is seen as a triangle. The merchant ship should have seen a blimp on their radar and acquired it.

[melvinmelvin]

 

US Navy reveals that some of the ships in its Japan based fleet

has been sailing with some expired certifications;

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/09/07/navy-says-tight-budget-stress-on-fleet-dont-excuse-crashes/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy DNR 09-07-17&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

[melvinmelvin]

US lawmakers (at least some of them) seem to think that expired certifications and incomplete

training is caused by missing funding.

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2017/09/14/lawmakers-invoke-navy-accidents-in-budget-fight/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy DNR 09-14-17&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

 

More heads rolling in the US Navy Pacific fleet;

 

http://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/09/18/new-7th-fleet-boss-fires-rear-admiral-and-captain-citing-loss-of-confidence/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy DNR 09-18-17&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

Hope that either US or Japan authorities will (in the foreseeable future) come up with something substantial

re what took place leading up to the crash.

 

[melvinmelvin]

 

More on head rolling and punishment in the US Navy Pacific fleet;

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/09/19/sen-mccain-20-sailors-reprimanded-in-wake-of-summers-fatal-at-sea-collisions/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy DNR 09-19-17&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

 

Assuming that the punishment is "fair and soundly" based that suggests to me that the navy must know

a whole lot about what led up to and caused til crashes off Japan and in Singapore.

 

Time to share.

 

[melvinmelvin]

 

Things, apart from head rolling, start to happen in the wake of the Japan and Singapore crashes;

 

New watch schedules to replace 5-on/10-off to ensure that drivers are rested

Enhanced focus on improving BRM

Ships to routinely use AIS

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/09/20/navy-issues-new-sleep-and-watch-schedule-rules-for-the-surface-fleet/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy DNR 09-20-17&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

More on head rolling in the US Navy in the wake of the destroyer crashes this summer.

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/10/09/i-now-hate-my-ship-surveys-reveal-disastrous-morale-on-cruiser-shiloh/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy DNR 10-09-17&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

Also a substantial report on crew morale in shambles on a US Navy cruiser with the same

home port as the Fitzgerald.

Not directly linked to the Fitzgerald but some paralells with Caine and Fitzgerald is drawn.

Interesting read.

 

The US Navy has its challenges one could say.

 

[melvinmelvin]

 

More from US Navy on leadership challenges, with clear links to Fitzgerald and Cain(e?).

 

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/10/10/cno-junior-leader-empowerment-can-help-fix-navy/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy DNR 10-10-17&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

 

Even more on head rolling in the US Navy after this summer's mishaps with McCain and Fitzgerald;

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/10/11/navy-fires-john-s-mccain-leadership-calls-fatal-august-collision-preventable/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy DNR 10-11-17&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

About time the US Navy starts sharing the findings of the investigations while it still has employees left ...

 

[melvinmelvin]

 

US lawmakers express that failure in judgementand insufficient training caused this summer's accidents;

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2017/10/31/senators-judgement-training-mistakes-caused-ship-collisions/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy DNR 10-31-17&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

 

[thaihome]

Here is the full report on both collisions. Makes for very sad reading, both for the deaths and the actions leading up to them. 

 

http://s3.amazonaws.com/CHINFO/USS+Fitzgerald+and+USS+John+S+McCain+Collision+Reports.pdf

 

TH 

[manarak]

5 hours ago, thaihome said:

Here is the full report on both collisions. Makes for very sad reading, both for the deaths and the actions leading up to them. 

 

http://s3.amazonaws.com/CHINFO/USS+Fitzgerald+and+USS+John+S+McCain+Collision+Reports.pdf

 

TH 

 

thanks for posting this - good to see that they made good on their promise to release the details.

 

the reports confirm our suspicions - all of them.

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

11 hours ago, thaihome said:

Here is the full report on both collisions. Makes for very sad reading, both for the deaths and the actions leading up to them. 

 

http://s3.amazonaws.com/CHINFO/USS+Fitzgerald+and+USS+John+S+McCain+Collision+Reports.pdf

 

TH 

 

great, will be interesting reading,

 

in today's US Navy Times there was an intro to the report,

a resume of the factual mistakes on both ships leading up to the crashes

 

(in my view easier to understand the Cain mistakes than the Fitz ones)

 

but in the news snippet - nothing about why these mistakes were done - no hint if digging

 

I do hope the reports go beyond just listing the factual mistakes and what they caused

and which regulations were broken

 

dunno, but I think lack of training/practice is too simplistic

 

now, - to the read

 

[thaihome]

The two reports are a contrast in management styles on each ship.

 

On the Fitz you seem to have a rather loose style that did not strictly enforce procedures such as plotting nearby ship positions nor notification to captain when traffic got close. This resulted in the ship basicly running into another ship they should have been able to easily avoid if procedures were followed.  

 

On the Cain, it appears it was run very tightly with the captain in full control. Unfortunately that full control included his running the bridge, giving direct orders to operators, without full acknowledgment of him being in control. This resulted in the captain giving an order he assumed would be followed up by the officer of deck to change the helm and thrust control configuration that was not acknowledged or followed up by the officer of the deck (since he assumed the captain was in charge). The result was the Cain making a uncontrolled turn into another ship. 

 

Certainly,  in both incidents,  lack of training by enlisted personnel played a big part but the management styles on each ship were flawed in completely different ways with the end result being the same and just as enviable in both cases.

 

TH

 

[melvinmelvin]

 

This is the US Navy Times intro to the reports, worth a read.

 

http://link.militarytimes.com/view/5950706aa2276254218b46056mjhb.8el/605499c0

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

 

Here are some comments by the US Navy on the findings in the reports.

 

OK reading.

 

http://link.militarytimes.com/view/5950706aa2276254218b46056mtn2.8el/2b721f2d