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U.S. Navy destroyer, Philippines merchant vessel collide off Japan


rooster59

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Guess the reports are OK, not great though in my view.

Detailed list of errors leading up to the crashes,

list of rules not adhered to etc.

 

What I miss is recommendations on what to do in order to avoid repeats.

 

Seems a bit simplistic to me to concentrate too much on training/practice

I think there are other and more difficult problems that deserves focus as well.

 

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1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

Some views on how the homicide charges against the two skippers may affect the US Navy in the future:

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/01/21/how-homicide-charges-for-two-skippers-will-shake-up-the-entire-navy/

 

today, there is far too much emotion involved in the management of serious matters.

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More read re court martial and the destroyer that ceashed off the coast of Japan

 

https://www.navytimes.com/home/left-column/2018/07/23/is-this-navy-officer-being-held-accountable-for-negligence-or-railroaded/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=New Campaign&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup

 

According to this it will probably take most of next year before before one can see the end of the cases . . .

 

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2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

an off topic (kinda) remark from me

I have said earlier in this thread that navy officers are not good at driving or handling boats

I got a lot of pepper and flak for my comments

the  US Navy has, in essence, concluded as me, they are useless at driving, don't even know the rules of the road

 

now,

very early this morning a navy frigate, in Norway, crashed into a fully loaded crude oil tanker

in one of the Norwegian fiords, why? nobody knows - so far

but it is crystal clear to everybody, including the navy, that the tanker had right of way

 

the tanker - some scratches

the frigate - very severe damage, they ran the frigate ashore, beached it - to avoid sinking

 

the tanker - pilot and a nanny tug at the bum

frigate - no pilot

 

navies around the world have challenges

 

reading through what has been written about these collisions, there are 3 things standing out:

1- there is a need for Navy bridge officers to be certified in civilian navigation procedures. Not knowing the right of way is absolutely unacceptable for someone steering a ship.

2- the ships' basic controls need to be simplified and better designed for clarity. Computer games have much better interfaces than the Navy's classified "secret" ship systems.

3- I'm unsure if it has always been that way or not, but it seems micromanagement is paralyzing officers, who rather than taking action to avoid potential danger prefer to do nothing to avoid being criticized if they do a small mistake while they are in charge. maybe it's time to review promotion criteria. to me, an officer who has never been criticized for his actions is suspect.

Edited by manarak
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41 minutes ago, manarak said:

 

reading through what has been written about these collisions, there are 3 things standing out:

1- there is a need for Navy bridge officers to be certified in civilian navigation procedures. Not knowing the right of way is absolutely unacceptable for someone steering a ship.

2- the ships' basic controls need to be simplified and better designed for clarity. Computer games have much better interfaces than the Navy's classified "secret" ship systems.

3- I'm unsure if it has always been that way or not, but it seems micromanagement is paralyzing officers, who rather than taking action to avoid potential danger prefer to do nothing to avoid being criticized if they do a small mistake while they are in charge. maybe it's time to review promotion criteria. to me, an officer who has never been criticized for his actions is suspect.

yes, think you are on to smth here

 

I don't know - but I can easily figure that the user interface on navy ships is not good

 

modern US destroyers are very complex machines

takes a whole  lot of effort to master them

 

officers get credit for mastering varying weapon systems to excellence

likewise stealth and detection system and communication systems

shooting down aircraft systems etc

 

driving the boat in a top notch manner doesn't earn you any points

hence, spending time and effort on becoming a good sailor and ship handler does not earn you stripes

 

 

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54 minutes ago, Kiwiken said:

One of the most sophisticated warships in the World and the work horse of the US navy and they cannot detect or see a merchant vessel. Kind of scarey

The Navy has multiple look-outs posted and multiple officers on the bridge. They've stopped teaching basic seamanship. Civilian Captains are getting a little spooked with these accidents. Electronics are great tools but looking out the window is king. Your eye will see the change of direction or speed before the radars will.

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4 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

The Navy has multiple look-outs posted and multiple officers on the bridge. They've stopped teaching basic seamanship. Civilian Captains are getting a little spooked with these accidents. Electronics are great tools but looking out the window is king. Your eye will see the change of direction or speed before the radars will.

All those lookouts, collision avoidance, communications and radar officers, helmsmen, bearing takers, is one of the reasons Naval officers are such poor seamen. Reevant information of relative speed, relative bearing, distance and depth is spread out too much. Collision avoidance sytems are useful in very high traffic areas but most encounters a watch officer should be able to acquire all this data and act on it himself. Assuming he knows the Inland/International Rules of the Road of course.

 

I've had encounters with US Naval ships in the Channel Islands, Tokyo Wan and the Strait of Hormuz. All hailed me for information and instructions to change course. They were wrong in every case and I cited relevant rules to explain why they were wrong. One of those encounters was as a midshipman and I made an aircraft carrier change course. That was kinda cool.

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2 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

The Navy has multiple look-outs posted and multiple officers on the bridge. They've stopped teaching basic seamanship. Civilian Captains are getting a little spooked with these accidents. Electronics are great tools but looking out the window is king. Your eye will see the change of direction or speed before the radars will.

sophisticated electronics - good stuff, but essential that one fully understand the inherent limitations of the various gadgets

 

as said above, looking out the window is king,

eyes and ears are very good navigational aids

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3 hours ago, Kiwiken said:

One of the most sophisticated warships in the World and the work horse of the US navy and they cannot detect or see a merchant vessel. Kind of scarey

yes, scarey

 

not only one time, off Tokyo, but also a few months later off Singapore,

the latter in broad daylight if I remember correctly - probably bad situation awareness combined with unhealthy ship handling

 

the same type of destroyer was involved in an encounter with a tanker close to Hormuz, darkness,

no fatalities no severe damage I think

 

 

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The defense team for the skipper, Mr Benson, requests that the judges drop the court martial against Benson.

Claiming that the top management in the navy has made a fair trial impossible.

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/11/16/defense-team-navy-brass-made-it-impossible-for-former-fitzgerald-skipper-to-get-fair-trial/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy Times 11-16-18&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup 

 

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For those of us who make our living standing our 4 hr bridge watches conning a ship around the world, well it's mind boggling to think this could have happened. I work for a Company who doesn't always transmit on AIS and I've had countless times I've had to call a ship when I'm "stand on" and ask their intention. At 4 NM they still aren't aware of the situation. Things can turn ugly real fast if you're not on top of things alllll the time. 

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49 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

The defense team for the skipper, Mr Benson, requests that the judges drop the court martial against Benson.

Claiming that the top management in the navy has made a fair trial impossible.

 

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/11/16/defense-team-navy-brass-made-it-impossible-for-former-fitzgerald-skipper-to-get-fair-trial/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy Times 11-16-18&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup 

 

 

his defense team is not wrong.

 

but there are other issues.

 

what do you all think about being given a ship with a crew that hasn't performed mandatory certifications, but is still given missions?

should a CO refuse to carry out the mission as long as training isn't up to the navy's official standards?

Edited by manarak
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