melvinmelvin Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 Guess the reports are OK, not great though in my view. Detailed list of errors leading up to the crashes, list of rules not adhered to etc. What I miss is recommendations on what to do in order to avoid repeats. Seems a bit simplistic to me to concentrate too much on training/practice I think there are other and more difficult problems that deserves focus as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 US lawmakers and Navy on possible measures to be taken in order to avoid future similar accidents; https://www.navytimes.com/opinion/commentary/2017/12/01/a-congressional-perspective-on-the-fitzgerald-mccain-collisions-commentary/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy DNR 12.01.17&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup some interesting ideas in the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Discussions started on unfortunate attitudes as possible underlying cause for last years destroyer crashes; https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/01/09/opinion-dont-ignore-bad-policy-and-the-indolent-chiefs-mess/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy DNR 01.09.18&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 Court proceedings in the aftermath of last year destroyer crashes; https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/01/17/homicide-charges-charges-for-mccain-fitzgerald-commanders/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy DNR 01-17-18&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Some views on how the homicide charges against the two skippers may affect the US Navy in the future: https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/01/21/how-homicide-charges-for-two-skippers-will-shake-up-the-entire-navy/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manarak Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said: Some views on how the homicide charges against the two skippers may affect the US Navy in the future: https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/01/21/how-homicide-charges-for-two-skippers-will-shake-up-the-entire-navy/ today, there is far too much emotion involved in the management of serious matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 From the ongoing legal proceedings following last year's destroyer crashes: https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/05/14/hearing-for-former-fitzgerald-commanding-officer-canceled/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NAV 05.14.18&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 More from the proceedings; (this one os interesting, certification of crew missing the required competence) https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/05/24/navy-chief-gets-busted-down-in-rank-at-mccain-collision-court-martial/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NAV 05.24.18&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 Here is what happened to the officer in command during the crash of the destroyer that crashed off Singapore; https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/05/25/former-mccain-co-sentenced-at-court-martial-for-fatal-collision/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NEW NAV 05.25.18&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 From the court case against the commander of the destroyer that crashed off Singapore, apparently family of those perished take part. https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/05/30/what-the-hell-was-he-thinking-families-of-mccain-sailors-tear-into-former-co-at-court-martial/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NAV 05.30.18&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 Some parties may avoid court-martial; https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/06/08/heres-how-two-fitzgerald-officers-could-avoid-court-martial/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NAV 060818&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 Families of some of the sailors that perished in the crash off Japan are not happy with the Navy's doings; https://www.navytimes.com/news/ship-collisions/2018/06/17/one-year-after-the-fitzgerald-collision-the-families-of-the-fallen-grieve-and-search-for-answers/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NAV 061818&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 Homicide charges against the commander of the destroyer that crashed off Japan; dropped: https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/06/19/navy-drops-negligent-homicide-charge-against-fitzgerald-co/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NAV 061918&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Chief of the destroyer that crashed just off Japan pleads not guilty to charges; https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/07/10/former-fitzgerald-co-pleads-not-guilty-to-charges-in-connection-to-fatal-collision/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NAV 071018&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 More read re court martial and the destroyer that ceashed off the coast of Japan https://www.navytimes.com/home/left-column/2018/07/23/is-this-navy-officer-being-held-accountable-for-negligence-or-railroaded/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=New Campaign&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup According to this it will probably take most of next year before before one can see the end of the cases . . . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 hope this thread will be kept open there is still a host of court cases waiting re these crashes, will surface later this year and early next year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manarak Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said: an off topic (kinda) remark from me I have said earlier in this thread that navy officers are not good at driving or handling boats I got a lot of pepper and flak for my comments the US Navy has, in essence, concluded as me, they are useless at driving, don't even know the rules of the road now, very early this morning a navy frigate, in Norway, crashed into a fully loaded crude oil tanker in one of the Norwegian fiords, why? nobody knows - so far but it is crystal clear to everybody, including the navy, that the tanker had right of way the tanker - some scratches the frigate - very severe damage, they ran the frigate ashore, beached it - to avoid sinking the tanker - pilot and a nanny tug at the bum frigate - no pilot navies around the world have challenges reading through what has been written about these collisions, there are 3 things standing out: 1- there is a need for Navy bridge officers to be certified in civilian navigation procedures. Not knowing the right of way is absolutely unacceptable for someone steering a ship. 2- the ships' basic controls need to be simplified and better designed for clarity. Computer games have much better interfaces than the Navy's classified "secret" ship systems. 3- I'm unsure if it has always been that way or not, but it seems micromanagement is paralyzing officers, who rather than taking action to avoid potential danger prefer to do nothing to avoid being criticized if they do a small mistake while they are in charge. maybe it's time to review promotion criteria. to me, an officer who has never been criticized for his actions is suspect. Edited November 8, 2018 by manarak 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 41 minutes ago, manarak said: reading through what has been written about these collisions, there are 3 things standing out: 1- there is a need for Navy bridge officers to be certified in civilian navigation procedures. Not knowing the right of way is absolutely unacceptable for someone steering a ship. 2- the ships' basic controls need to be simplified and better designed for clarity. Computer games have much better interfaces than the Navy's classified "secret" ship systems. 3- I'm unsure if it has always been that way or not, but it seems micromanagement is paralyzing officers, who rather than taking action to avoid potential danger prefer to do nothing to avoid being criticized if they do a small mistake while they are in charge. maybe it's time to review promotion criteria. to me, an officer who has never been criticized for his actions is suspect. yes, think you are on to smth here I don't know - but I can easily figure that the user interface on navy ships is not good modern US destroyers are very complex machines takes a whole lot of effort to master them officers get credit for mastering varying weapon systems to excellence likewise stealth and detection system and communication systems shooting down aircraft systems etc driving the boat in a top notch manner doesn't earn you any points hence, spending time and effort on becoming a good sailor and ship handler does not earn you stripes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 Troll post and replies removed. Continue and face a suspension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwiken Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 One of the most sophisticated warships in the World and the work horse of the US navy and they cannot detect or see a merchant vessel. Kind of scarey 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVENKEEL Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 54 minutes ago, Kiwiken said: One of the most sophisticated warships in the World and the work horse of the US navy and they cannot detect or see a merchant vessel. Kind of scarey The Navy has multiple look-outs posted and multiple officers on the bridge. They've stopped teaching basic seamanship. Civilian Captains are getting a little spooked with these accidents. Electronics are great tools but looking out the window is king. Your eye will see the change of direction or speed before the radars will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lannarebirth Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 4 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said: The Navy has multiple look-outs posted and multiple officers on the bridge. They've stopped teaching basic seamanship. Civilian Captains are getting a little spooked with these accidents. Electronics are great tools but looking out the window is king. Your eye will see the change of direction or speed before the radars will. All those lookouts, collision avoidance, communications and radar officers, helmsmen, bearing takers, is one of the reasons Naval officers are such poor seamen. Reevant information of relative speed, relative bearing, distance and depth is spread out too much. Collision avoidance sytems are useful in very high traffic areas but most encounters a watch officer should be able to acquire all this data and act on it himself. Assuming he knows the Inland/International Rules of the Road of course. I've had encounters with US Naval ships in the Channel Islands, Tokyo Wan and the Strait of Hormuz. All hailed me for information and instructions to change course. They were wrong in every case and I cited relevant rules to explain why they were wrong. One of those encounters was as a midshipman and I made an aircraft carrier change course. That was kinda cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 2 hours ago, EVENKEEL said: The Navy has multiple look-outs posted and multiple officers on the bridge. They've stopped teaching basic seamanship. Civilian Captains are getting a little spooked with these accidents. Electronics are great tools but looking out the window is king. Your eye will see the change of direction or speed before the radars will. sophisticated electronics - good stuff, but essential that one fully understand the inherent limitations of the various gadgets as said above, looking out the window is king, eyes and ears are very good navigational aids Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 3 hours ago, Kiwiken said: One of the most sophisticated warships in the World and the work horse of the US navy and they cannot detect or see a merchant vessel. Kind of scarey yes, scarey not only one time, off Tokyo, but also a few months later off Singapore, the latter in broad daylight if I remember correctly - probably bad situation awareness combined with unhealthy ship handling the same type of destroyer was involved in an encounter with a tanker close to Hormuz, darkness, no fatalities no severe damage I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lannarebirth Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 On 7/22/2017 at 8:35 PM, jaggiss said: Until?? Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app in extremis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metisdead Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 (edited) Off topic posts and the replies have been removed. This is not about a recent shipwreck in Norway. A post commenting on moderation has been removed. Edited November 9, 2018 by metisdead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvinmelvin Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 The defense team for the skipper, Mr Benson, requests that the judges drop the court martial against Benson. Claiming that the top management in the navy has made a fair trial impossible. https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/11/16/defense-team-navy-brass-made-it-impossible-for-former-fitzgerald-skipper-to-get-fair-trial/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy Times 11-16-18&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVENKEEL Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 For those of us who make our living standing our 4 hr bridge watches conning a ship around the world, well it's mind boggling to think this could have happened. I work for a Company who doesn't always transmit on AIS and I've had countless times I've had to call a ship when I'm "stand on" and ask their intention. At 4 NM they still aren't aware of the situation. Things can turn ugly real fast if you're not on top of things alllll the time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargeezr Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 That big three letter word may be cause of some of these collisions, EGO, and I believe the US navy and maybe other navies, has an over supply of Ego. Geezer 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manarak Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 (edited) 49 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said: The defense team for the skipper, Mr Benson, requests that the judges drop the court martial against Benson. Claiming that the top management in the navy has made a fair trial impossible. https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/11/16/defense-team-navy-brass-made-it-impossible-for-former-fitzgerald-skipper-to-get-fair-trial/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navy Times 11-16-18&utm_term=Editorial - Navy - Daily News Roundup his defense team is not wrong. but there are other issues. what do you all think about being given a ship with a crew that hasn't performed mandatory certifications, but is still given missions? should a CO refuse to carry out the mission as long as training isn't up to the navy's official standards? Edited November 17, 2018 by manarak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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